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Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:08:00 - [1] Hey, I'm looking for some advice from experienced tech 2 manufacturers. I've been toying with the idea of setting up a tech 2 ammo chain involving production of all types of ammo and missiles and some drones. I've noticed that the production time for the ammo is extensive. I've done some calculations and I plan to initial start production on 1 specific drone and around 5-10 different types of missiles/projectile. I won't be moon mining purely using the market to get the components cheap and then selling the produced item for a profit. I've worked out a large return of profit resulting in me getting around 140-160mil every week depending on how it sells (not entirely profit but I removed the stuff I can mine/make myself so this value represents the amount of cash going into my wallet). The production chain would take a maximum 5days with a high sec pos and implants or 7d with implants. I currently have an alt training for perfect orca and additional support skills. I am also planning to kick this project off with an initial investment from a couple of plex's if I go ahead with it. My question is: Would it benefit me to invest in a High-sec POS for the copying/invention and then manufacturing the ammo to reduce the time or should I just use the station (the income i've calculated is not including POS costs.) Thanks in advance and any tips or advice is most welcome! ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:21:00 - [2] POS do help with reducing your manufacturing time but if you're not taking the fuel cost into account with your profit, you'll need to find another way to ensure that the cost is covered. Whether it'll be missioning, doing research, other manufacturing, etc. Store
Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.11 01:43:00 - [3] I've just this moment calculated the fuel cost for the POS that i'd use. It would cost me approximately 15mil a week to fuel the pos but i can mine Ice pretty good so It would only take about 2-3 hours to mine the fuel and then cover the rest with PI or the market. With this factored i'd pull in 120-140mil per week. ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
JennyJen	Posted - 2010.08.11 06:26:00 - [4] Personaly id say go with the pos its so worth it. I have a medium pos and i can get all fuel from 8 command centers plus a lil ice minning. it makes copying and everything else so much better.
Barbicane TGUN Industries	Posted - 2010.08.11 07:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Halborn (not entirely profit but I removed the stuff I can mine/make myself so this value represents the amount of cash going into my wallet) Please, pretty, please just take a look at that stuff you mine/produce yourself and check how much you would make if you sold it over the market instead of using it for t2 ammo. T2 ammo used to be a good entry point (time consuming, but good profit) into T2 production but this kind of changed with the introduction of PI. The price hike of former NPC goods such as rocket fuel (used in t2 missiles) has lowered profit levels considerably and at the same time increased the cost of running a POS. For this reason I think you should double check your numbers to make sure you really are as profitable as you think. You can usually make 10-20% profit by building T2 components from advanced material bought straight from the market, or even more if you set up buy orders for the advanced material. Maybe that's where your profit comes from? I mean, just make sure your profit comes from the t2 production itself, not from somewhere else.
Barbicane TGUN Industries	Posted - 2010.08.11 07:49:00 - [6] Originally by: JennyJen Personaly id say go with the pos its so worth it. I have a medium pos and i can get all fuel from 8 command centers plus a lil ice minning. it makes copying and everything else so much better. Definitely sounds worth it
Bia Bri	Posted - 2010.08.11 07:53:00 - [7] Access to readily available copy slots is pretty much mandatory if you want to make a career of any tech 2 manufacturing (unless you are buying the bpcs which is also an option sometimes). There's pretty much no substitute for having your own pos. As the above poster mentioned, a medium tower is pretty cheap and you can easily slap enough labs on there to get plenty of copy and invention slots for a single character (or even more than 1). Plus you always have the option of using a large if you have enough scale to make it worthwhile. Note, run the numbers on how many copies -> successful invention bpcs you will be cranking out to see if you really need the extra manufacturing speed of an ammo array. Its pretty easy to find stations that routinely have many manufacturing slots available even in high sec and it might be just as easy to do the actual production using NPC manufacturing lines. One thing I want to steer you away from is ice mining. There are exactly 2 reasons ever to do ice mining. One, you are doing some afk mining and can't pay attention to the game more than once every 10 minutes or so. Two, you are in the middle of nowhere and there's just no ice products to buy on the market. In virtually ALL other situations its going to be FAR more time efficient to mine ore (or do missions, or whatever) refine that ore, sell it, and buy 3 times the ice products you would have got using the same time to mine ice directly. As a side note, the same principle applies to PI--do what earns you the most isk, then use that isk to buy the products you need.
Sepi Gamma Draconis Industries Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.11 09:23:00 - [8] as a medium term builder of t2 and using multiple poses and labs.. first, to fuel a medium wont cost you 15mill per week, but current market prices say it would cost nearer to 120mill per month second, most t2 ammo makes lil to 0 profit and using a pos will only reduce the 'little' third, yes you may mine for the bits you need, but OH DEAR GOD remember that these are NOT NOT NOT FREE..... fourth. The mats you mine ARE NOT FREE. Fifth YES THE MATS YOU MINE ARE NOT FREE EVER ok im sure you get the point, all the materials you mine either ice for pos or PI for rest of bits have a value equivelant to what you could sell them at on the market. As a previous poster has stated go back, look at your figures, its important you work out cost per run then work out sales value per run, then dont forget to add in costs such as pos fuel, your time etc. Then consider if its as profitable as you first believe. Good luck in your venture. If you do need further info feel free to gimme a shout in game always willing to help out newer players with questions etc.
Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:23:00 - [9] Each item I will make has a minimum of 30% ROI. I looked at the math and even when I take the minerals into account it reduces it by a couple of mil. The big cost is rocket fuel which I've estimated would cost around25mil per production chain. So with all that into account the pure profit I make would still be 100mil or so. Yes I understand nothing is free I've been doing manufacturing since i started and a lot of mining. I do a lot of afk mining normally I'm doing some calculations or planning something whilst I mine so I have no issue there. I'm trying to make myself as self sufficient as I can whilst maintaining a nice profit. I also need to look at getting pi running for the rocket fuel. I would need around 6300 a week to maintain. Btw I'd be running a small pos with offlined defences to deter any wardecd (online them if I get wardecced making it ages to kill it) currently I'd be running 2 ammo AA a mobile lab or two depending how many I need and the defences would be dampening arrays and ECM. It would start ,ow cost and expand where necessary. This is why it costs only 15mil a week to run. ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
Gravitonic	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:38:00 - [10] I used to make a huge profit on certain t2 ammo types, but have not been in the business for a while now, so I am not sure on the changes in margin. In any case, I used a POS not just for ammo, but for ME on BPOs used for T1 manufacturing, copying for invention, and manufacturing of ammo. Excess lab space was 'rented' out or used to research BPOs and sell them on the market (essentially the same thing on speculation). In any case, we are now thinking about setting up ammo manuf in a WH. We have PI stuff out the wazzo and it is relatively easy with a hi-sec static to get materials/products in and out as needed. I will have to look at the finances first, though, and make sure that there is no opportunity cost in manuf with the materials vs. selling them. Hi-sec alts take care of the marketing end of things. I would definitely avoid 'all types' of ammo, at least based on the old market analysis we did. Some are just dogs.

Anatolius Lemuel	Posted - 2010.08.11 18:59:00 - [11] I'll put my 2isks worth in as well. As a producer of T2 ammo myself I can say that having your own POS is a must. At the moment I am running a medium pos with 4 labs (2 adv 2 norm) and 4 ammo manufacturing lines. In addition to that I have 1 equipment and 1 component assembly lines to to help with the RAM and produce other T2 mods. I can confirm that the fuel costs per month are in the region of 120 - 150m. However the profit I make I plough back into the POS fuel first then to buy the next round of mats and still have some left over! I try to keep a tight reign on what's being sold on market/produced etc to make sure everything is going round perfectly but RL gets in the way most of the time!! Just as an example, and I sure others are doing better than this, so far this month I have made a clear profit of 240m isk (21m per day) from just 6 different items. It is possible to achieve a good profit as long as the numbers are calculated properly.
Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.11 21:52:00 - [12] Thanks all for the advice and comments. I am probably going to go ahead with the plan as I've double checked and triple checked my figures and I see a nice return on the investment. One final question is do you produce the individual components like Nuclear Pulse Generator or do you buy it off the market or does it come down to if i'll save money by spending the time on making it? ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.08.11 22:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Halborn Btw I'd be running a small pos with offlined defences to deter any wardecd (online them if I get wardecced making it ages to kill it) currently I'd be running 2 ammo AA a mobile lab or two depending how many I need and the defences would be dampening arrays and ECM. It would start ,ow cost and expand where necessary. This is why it costs only 15mil a week to run. A small POS is little more than a roadbump though. Dont lull yourself into a sense of false security. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.11 22:13:00 - [14] A large faction pos with offlined death will give high sec war decr's pause.
Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.12 00:32:00 - [15] Edited by: Halborn on 12/08/2010 00:36:16 I just need to edit my figure running the pos. I was using a program with the pre-programed pos cost before PI and I can confirm that the figures posted above are accurate. It's gonna cost me around 93mil for fuel a month which is acceptable. I will just try to make the pos too much of a pain to kill. I know that its not gonna deter the people that really really want to kill it as they can just sit there for days but i want to make it unprofitable. I'm toying between using a small and medium atm. I want to try keep fuel costs and investment cost low so i straight away went for small but i see many medium fits. How much more would it cost to run a medium? Also I'm looking at producing rocket fuel myself for the manufacturing process as its pretty much 50% of the total cost of producing an item (yes i know its not free but it means 50mil less i dont spend on components). Anyone have any figures to how much a high-sec planet can produce a day? ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
Hamatitio Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.08.12 02:05:00 - [16] A crapton of ECM means the aggressors have to bring more pilots to get the job done, more pilots means less isk per person. Bring that figure low enough and most will leave you alone. Originally by: Forest Gump And that's all I got to say 'bout that.
ZeeOhSix Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics	Posted - 2010.08.12 17:22:00 - [17] We're building about 100 T2 modules/day and just getting ready to put up our POS. I've had a lab rental agreement that has been key to our success to date. We're making about 340M net/week from the operation. I looked at T2 ammo manufacture some time back and didn't like the profit numbers; looks like I need to take another look :) I've possibly become a little complacent with a relatively narrow set of T2 module production that has produced good results to date. The business of EVE is business!
Shonali	Posted - 2010.08.13 04:03:00 - [18] Quote: One final question is do you produce the individual components like Nuclear Pulse Generator or do you buy it off the market or does it come down to if i'll save money by spending the time on making it? I make the factional components to save on the hauling and a bit on the price, although my profit margin spreadsheet has check boxes for each item that I can buy or make in the process, and I can look a the difference it makes in the end, too. You might save 50% on some item by making it, but it may only be 1% of the final cost, so it isn't too big a deal. On the other hand, something that saves you 10% but is 70% of the final cost, that is another matter....
Tyfuz	Posted - 2010.08.13 08:03:00 - [19] Edited by: Tyfuz on 13/08/2010 08:03:39 Originally by: Barbicane Originally by: Halborn (not entirely profit but I removed the stuff I can mine/make myself so this value represents the amount of cash going into my wallet) Please, pretty, please just take a look at that stuff you mine/produce yourself and check how much you would make if you sold it over the market instead of using it for t2 ammo. T2 ammo used to be a good entry point (time consuming, but good profit) into T2 production but this kind of changed with the introduction of PI. The price hike of former NPC goods such as rocket fuel (used in t2 missiles) has lowered profit levels considerably and at the same time increased the cost of running a POS. For this reason I think you should double check your numbers to make sure you really are as profitable as you think. You can usually make 10-20% profit by building T2 components from advanced material bought straight from the market, or even more if you set up buy orders for the advanced material. Maybe that's where your profit comes from? I mean, just make sure your profit comes from the t2 production itself, not from somewhere else. I agree with this guy
Pachira Lotus	Posted - 2010.08.13 11:29:00 - [20] The key to any successful manufactorying operations is ALTs & how many you have Why use one toon to do every thing, when another toon trained up could free vital time and space to make more profit its about tailoring alts to your manufactorying caparebilities to make the most out of the time... simple as Amatuers use these bog standard pos, get faction tower dread gurista (more cpu for labs 'n' assemble arrays) are best for T2 invention purpose damn slight cheaper on fuel Secondly ya may hate PI for the click fest but doing ya own fuel or part of it will keep more of your profit in your wallet... (thats empire .5 system for PI)

Nekobara Nanako	Posted - 2010.08.13 12:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Barbicane T2 ammo used to be a good entry point (time consuming, but good profit) into T2 production but this kind of changed with the introduction of PI. The price hike of former NPC goods such as rocket fuel (used in t2 missiles) has lowered profit levels considerably and at the same time increased the cost of running a POS. For this reason I think you should double check your numbers to make sure you really are as profitable as you think. A price adjustment of T2 missiles is imminent as most of them only have 2-5 days worth of stock on Jita market. Rocket fuel will not fall anytime soon, rather the opposite, and missiles are bound to follow. If everyone has checked out of missile production due to rocket fuel prices then there will actually be rather good profits to be made soon'ish.
Halborn Celtic Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.13 15:15:00 - [22] I'm teaming up with another person ingame we're running it together. My main has 23mil sp so he'll be doing the inventing and running 10 manufacturing jobs. I have an alt currently training for an orca but i'll use him for more manufacturing slots and also for more R&D agents to try cut down on the cost of buying datacores. As for the T2 ammo i've triple checked my math and it comes out at a profit by 30% minimum. The big cost as mentioned is rocket fuel which now counts towards nearly 50% of the total build cost for missiles. I've factored in pos fuel Invention costs and material costs and compared it to the sale price to figure the profit. However I plan to cut down on buying everything. By running multiple R&D agents thats less i spend on datacores and by mining the ice and running a PI chain for bother rocket fuel and pos fuel thats less im spending and more money thats coming in each month. As for the post tower I'm trying to keep the investment cost low. Atm i'm figuring that its gonna be around 500mil investment for the project and another 400-500mil for my alt and orca. the faction tower is just an added expense. ------------------------------ CEO Celtic Technologies Inc.
CAPSLOCKBROKE Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.13 15:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Bia Bri One thing I want to steer you away from is ice mining. There are exactly 2 reasons ever to do ice mining. One, you are doing some afk mining and can't pay attention to the game more than once every 10 minutes or so. Two, you are in the middle of nowhere and there's just no ice products to buy on the market. In virtually ALL other situations its going to be FAR more time efficient to mine ore (or do missions, or whatever) refine that ore, sell it, and buy 3 times the ice products you would have got using the same time to mine ice directly. As a side note, the same principle applies to PI--do what earns you the most isk, then use that isk to buy the products you need. PI has changed. The prices are so high right now its definitely worth your time to make at least the Coolant if nothing else if you can. By current jita prices I make 8.1 million ISK worth of Coolant a day in about 4 minutes of clicking on 2 planets. That is actually more isk/time than most activities. It takes a haul trip twice a month or so in an industrial. Very worth the time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CAPSLOCK, BECAUSE SOMETIMES REGULAR FONT JUST, ISN'T, GOOD ENOUGH.


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