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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2004.12.24 22:33:00 -
[1]
I've decided, after recently having my astrometrics trained to the fullest extent, to make a little feedback post in regard to what I think of the current scanning system. Now, before you make a mad dash for the fire-retardant suit, I've to say that the system at its core is pretty decently set up with some significant shortcomings that must be looked at.
First off, the type selection is redundant in its current form. It must either be abolished entirely or changed to something more encompassing (eg: structures, ships, etc..)
The next issue is actual time required to get a probe feed. Presently it is entirely based on the launcher you're using (tech1 probe launcher being 300, tech 2 being 255..etcetera) This is also a bit silly because whilst it makes sense to wait 300 seconds for a deep-space probe or a 190au-range one, waiting 300 seconds for a 3 au feed makes the entire probing process impractical (assuming you've pinged and successfuly warped to someone using a higher range probe, they're likely to be long-gone by the time your 3 au gives you a percise ping.
That said, feed time must be based on probe type. 3 au - 30 seconds. 12 au - 90 seconds. 48 au - 130 seconds - 190 au - 300 seconds. This sort of change would make astrometrics and probe location a more combat-viable practice for something other than completely immobile blob busting.
Thank you for your time.
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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2004.12.24 22:33:00 -
[2]
I've decided, after recently having my astrometrics trained to the fullest extent, to make a little feedback post in regard to what I think of the current scanning system. Now, before you make a mad dash for the fire-retardant suit, I've to say that the system at its core is pretty decently set up with some significant shortcomings that must be looked at.
First off, the type selection is redundant in its current form. It must either be abolished entirely or changed to something more encompassing (eg: structures, ships, etc..)
The next issue is actual time required to get a probe feed. Presently it is entirely based on the launcher you're using (tech1 probe launcher being 300, tech 2 being 255..etcetera) This is also a bit silly because whilst it makes sense to wait 300 seconds for a deep-space probe or a 190au-range one, waiting 300 seconds for a 3 au feed makes the entire probing process impractical (assuming you've pinged and successfuly warped to someone using a higher range probe, they're likely to be long-gone by the time your 3 au gives you a percise ping.
That said, feed time must be based on probe type. 3 au - 30 seconds. 12 au - 90 seconds. 48 au - 130 seconds - 190 au - 300 seconds. This sort of change would make astrometrics and probe location a more combat-viable practice for something other than completely immobile blob busting.
Thank you for your time.
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Hellspawn666
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Posted - 2004.12.25 13:34:00 -
[3]
i still think it needs to be made easier and faster i was under the impretion these where meant to make safespots harder but currently takes like 30 seconds to make a good safespot now to find em could take up to 30 mins or more.. I think the cpu should be lower so that we dont have to have a ship specifically built for finding safespots it makes it so the only time these probes are used are when trying to find ejected ships.But some good points in the above post about shortening times on the shorter range
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Hellspawn666
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Posted - 2004.12.25 13:34:00 -
[4]
i still think it needs to be made easier and faster i was under the impretion these where meant to make safespots harder but currently takes like 30 seconds to make a good safespot now to find em could take up to 30 mins or more.. I think the cpu should be lower so that we dont have to have a ship specifically built for finding safespots it makes it so the only time these probes are used are when trying to find ejected ships.But some good points in the above post about shortening times on the shorter range
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.12.25 14:25:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Viceroy on 25/12/2004 14:26:09
The scan time issue aside, probes are currently useless because their scanning system is borked.
As explained here, they only scan a 2 dimensional triangular plane that is 2au thick, thus they are pretty much useless in a 3 dimensional enviroment like EVE.
Also, the fact that system safespots still work (although they shouldnt) makes them utterly useless, because you can just warp to a system safespot and be totally safe from getting scanned due to the fact that there are no points of reference that can put you inside the triangular scanning area.
And even if they did work like they were supposed to, as Uuve said, the 300 second scan time for even the smallest probe make them simply impractical, as anyone at a safespot can just warp around every half a hour (that is if he/she doesnt just log off to avoid being scanned) and neutralize the whole concept of probing.
Conclusion: Probes are utterly borked and useless. GG with a rushed "feature".
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.12.25 14:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Viceroy on 25/12/2004 14:26:09
The scan time issue aside, probes are currently useless because their scanning system is borked.
As explained here, they only scan a 2 dimensional triangular plane that is 2au thick, thus they are pretty much useless in a 3 dimensional enviroment like EVE.
Also, the fact that system safespots still work (although they shouldnt) makes them utterly useless, because you can just warp to a system safespot and be totally safe from getting scanned due to the fact that there are no points of reference that can put you inside the triangular scanning area.
And even if they did work like they were supposed to, as Uuve said, the 300 second scan time for even the smallest probe make them simply impractical, as anyone at a safespot can just warp around every half a hour (that is if he/she doesnt just log off to avoid being scanned) and neutralize the whole concept of probing.
Conclusion: Probes are utterly borked and useless. GG with a rushed "feature".
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.12.25 16:04:00 -
[7]
The 300 seconds wait until information is processed isn't such a bad thing as some might think. Believe me, it can be used effectively, as I have gotten reports that RUSH has done (good job using scanners, boys), but I can see the 2au Z-axis limitation can be a large problem.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.12.25 16:04:00 -
[8]
The 300 seconds wait until information is processed isn't such a bad thing as some might think. Believe me, it can be used effectively, as I have gotten reports that RUSH has done (good job using scanners, boys), but I can see the 2au Z-axis limitation can be a large problem.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.12.25 16:38:00 -
[9]
in addition -if- you find a safespot and warp to it you will land 60-500 km away from it. This means in the best case you are about 20-30 secs away from scrambling, enough time for your enemy to either log with all tanking activated (by the time your buddies are there he is prolly gone) or to simply mwd/warp away.
This makes finding ppl "hiding" impossible unless you have a cov op frig (unlikely due to high cpu only with cloak deactivated)or they must be afk...
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2004.12.25 16:38:00 -
[10]
in addition -if- you find a safespot and warp to it you will land 60-500 km away from it. This means in the best case you are about 20-30 secs away from scrambling, enough time for your enemy to either log with all tanking activated (by the time your buddies are there he is prolly gone) or to simply mwd/warp away.
This makes finding ppl "hiding" impossible unless you have a cov op frig (unlikely due to high cpu only with cloak deactivated)or they must be afk...
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Mujun Kross
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Posted - 2004.12.25 17:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mujun Kross on 25/12/2004 17:33:33
I have tracked down targets useing the 48AU probes, warped to the target and landed 12km from the target. Its all based on how strong the signal strength is to the target.
And no it does not take 30 minutes to find a target...just over 20 minutes if you have to start with the 192AU probes. Since you can use different sized probes to scan it makes it fairly easy to find a SS.
The probes are far from useless but they do take some time to get used to. Useing the probes in conjunction with the system scanner means you can find most targets.
And I agree that the scan times rank up there with some of the more "intelligent" things the devs have done. I like the idea of the time based on the size of the probe.
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"Come now, my child, if we were planning to harm you, do you think we'd be lurking here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?"
-Kenneth Patchen "But Even So" |
Mujun Kross
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Posted - 2004.12.25 17:31:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Mujun Kross on 25/12/2004 17:33:33
I have tracked down targets useing the 48AU probes, warped to the target and landed 12km from the target. Its all based on how strong the signal strength is to the target.
And no it does not take 30 minutes to find a target...just over 20 minutes if you have to start with the 192AU probes. Since you can use different sized probes to scan it makes it fairly easy to find a SS.
The probes are far from useless but they do take some time to get used to. Useing the probes in conjunction with the system scanner means you can find most targets.
And I agree that the scan times rank up there with some of the more "intelligent" things the devs have done. I like the idea of the time based on the size of the probe.
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"Come now, my child, if we were planning to harm you, do you think we'd be lurking here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?"
-Kenneth Patchen "But Even So" |
Liz Bathory
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Posted - 2004.12.25 19:43:00 -
[13]
use an observator probe, that scans from 1 au out to infinity au, and gets you a bit under 192 au from the target, theoretically close enough to use 192 au probes and scan in from there, no matter how far out the target is
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Liz Bathory
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Posted - 2004.12.25 19:43:00 -
[14]
use an observator probe, that scans from 1 au out to infinity au, and gets you a bit under 192 au from the target, theoretically close enough to use 192 au probes and scan in from there, no matter how far out the target is
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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2004.12.25 19:50:00 -
[15]
 Originally by: Kcel Chim
This makes finding ppl "hiding" impossible unless you have a cov op frig (unlikely due to high cpu only with cloak deactivated)or they must be afk...
Well, this is less of a problem than you might think. I use a cheetah as a combat ship and always carry a launcher with probe assortment along to any engagement. I am able to fit a cloak, an MWD and a probe launcher (and some more things, actually) on the ship with cloaking V and covert ops V.
That said, viceroy stated a very serious problem with the z-axis that should be adressed above all. Once these three or so issues are mitigated, a lot more people will look at probe scanning and astrometrics skill as more viable.
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Uuve Savisaalo
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Posted - 2004.12.25 19:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kcel Chim
This makes finding ppl "hiding" impossible unless you have a cov op frig (unlikely due to high cpu only with cloak deactivated)or they must be afk...
Well, this is less of a problem than you might think. I use a cheetah as a combat ship and always carry a launcher with probe assortment along to any engagement. I am able to fit a cloak, an MWD and a probe launcher (and some more things, actually) on the ship with cloaking V and covert ops V.
That said, viceroy stated a very serious problem with the z-axis that should be adressed above all. Once these three or so issues are mitigated, a lot more people will look at probe scanning and astrometrics skill as more viable.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.12.27 15:22:00 -
[17]
I guess no one really thought about what has to happen for probes to work. ummmmm database server side info search......... and people want that instantly HAHAHAHA. do you guys realize how much lag will probably be introduced with instant result scanning.
probes in turn send a signal back to the server and there is an actual database search that happens. havent you guys noticed the scan log number when activated. Why might that be there????????????
so your not actually probing the system that your in.
your actually probing the eve servers for locations inside that system.
just like locating services. they are limited by database search times pending the quality and range of the search.
Your actually gaining access to database server side, that takes time, that simple. No if's and's but's. that doesn't happen quickly.
agreed the smaller ones should scan faster but that might be a physical limitation of searching eve database and might not be possible.
if they can do that then ultimately it should be limited by your larges probe used.
Way I used them so far.
Launch 3 192 au probes and scan.
you get a hit, warp to location, launch one 48 au probe and rescan using two the 192 and the new 48.
it gives you another hit. warp to location. Launch 12au probe.
rescan using 1 192, the 48, and the 12, it gives you yet another hit but still not aproachable.
Warp to last hit launch the 3au and rescan using the 48, the 12, the 3. after that scan it should bring you right in. if not warp to next hit and launch another 3 au and rescan using the 2 3au and the 12 au. that should.
you see the progression I use but i use a 192 au for my first few scans. the search time should be based on the largest probe used.
but then again it might be physically impossible to gather database searches and "hurry" them any more than they already are.
and yes the way they work is a bit of a bummer if your chasing and hunting an active player. simply won't work.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.12.27 15:22:00 -
[18]
I guess no one really thought about what has to happen for probes to work. ummmmm database server side info search......... and people want that instantly HAHAHAHA. do you guys realize how much lag will probably be introduced with instant result scanning.
probes in turn send a signal back to the server and there is an actual database search that happens. havent you guys noticed the scan log number when activated. Why might that be there????????????
so your not actually probing the system that your in.
your actually probing the eve servers for locations inside that system.
just like locating services. they are limited by database search times pending the quality and range of the search.
Your actually gaining access to database server side, that takes time, that simple. No if's and's but's. that doesn't happen quickly.
agreed the smaller ones should scan faster but that might be a physical limitation of searching eve database and might not be possible.
if they can do that then ultimately it should be limited by your larges probe used.
Way I used them so far.
Launch 3 192 au probes and scan.
you get a hit, warp to location, launch one 48 au probe and rescan using two the 192 and the new 48.
it gives you another hit. warp to location. Launch 12au probe.
rescan using 1 192, the 48, and the 12, it gives you yet another hit but still not aproachable.
Warp to last hit launch the 3au and rescan using the 48, the 12, the 3. after that scan it should bring you right in. if not warp to next hit and launch another 3 au and rescan using the 2 3au and the 12 au. that should.
you see the progression I use but i use a 192 au for my first few scans. the search time should be based on the largest probe used.
but then again it might be physically impossible to gather database searches and "hurry" them any more than they already are.
and yes the way they work is a bit of a bummer if your chasing and hunting an active player. simply won't work.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.12.27 15:31:00 -
[19]
What i'm concerned about is why is DED and concord the only people selling them and where's the damn BPO's.
I planned on and been searching for probe BPO's so I don't have to spend a small fortune to scan one system and make all my own probes.
at 50,000 isk a pop for something that is a one shot wonder never to be used again. Geeze. You better have deep corp funds for multiple system scans.
the above search just cost me atleast 300k and that's if I know what type of ship I'm looking for. since day one of probes being released I been looking for the BPO's.
nope only concord and DED got them.
For me it's not the length of time involved but rather it not at all affordable to make a scan ship to physically go around scanning systems.
with current costs and the time it takes, I simply won't use them unless I know what I'm looking for and where to start.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.12.27 15:31:00 -
[20]
What i'm concerned about is why is DED and concord the only people selling them and where's the damn BPO's.
I planned on and been searching for probe BPO's so I don't have to spend a small fortune to scan one system and make all my own probes.
at 50,000 isk a pop for something that is a one shot wonder never to be used again. Geeze. You better have deep corp funds for multiple system scans.
the above search just cost me atleast 300k and that's if I know what type of ship I'm looking for. since day one of probes being released I been looking for the BPO's.
nope only concord and DED got them.
For me it's not the length of time involved but rather it not at all affordable to make a scan ship to physically go around scanning systems.
with current costs and the time it takes, I simply won't use them unless I know what I'm looking for and where to start.
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Namelesz
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Posted - 2004.12.27 15:54:00 -
[21]
I noticed one other weird thing when I scan for ships, I sometimes have to be facing the thing I am looking for and get it on the scanner itself before I can find it. I seem to find ships faster when I do that. Plus, with the 300sec timer the way it is now, the 3au probes can only be used once cause once you launch the probe it takes 15 seconds for you to be able to start scanning then once your scan is done the time left on the probe is less than 300 seconds so no more scans from that. i wish the 3au probes had an extra 2 minutes on them before the expire.
-Namelesz
"I never run away. I merely advance in the opposite direction." -Judicator
"She was so dumb, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my *****." |
Namelesz
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Posted - 2004.12.27 15:54:00 -
[22]
I noticed one other weird thing when I scan for ships, I sometimes have to be facing the thing I am looking for and get it on the scanner itself before I can find it. I seem to find ships faster when I do that. Plus, with the 300sec timer the way it is now, the 3au probes can only be used once cause once you launch the probe it takes 15 seconds for you to be able to start scanning then once your scan is done the time left on the probe is less than 300 seconds so no more scans from that. i wish the 3au probes had an extra 2 minutes on them before the expire.
-Namelesz
"I never run away. I merely advance in the opposite direction." -Judicator
"She was so dumb, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my *****." |
Techtriz
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Posted - 2004.12.27 17:23:00 -
[23]
If you wanna make your fleet able to warp in within warp scramble range of an enemy fleet I belive CCP intended you to use covert ops frigs, otherwise this would simply be too good.
Agree with the z-axis problem.
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Techtriz
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Posted - 2004.12.27 17:23:00 -
[24]
If you wanna make your fleet able to warp in within warp scramble range of an enemy fleet I belive CCP intended you to use covert ops frigs, otherwise this would simply be too good.
Agree with the z-axis problem.
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