Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:11:56
Then why the hell do you have to train "Covert OPS" to use this ship. Seems as stupid as "Black Ops". Is it just a trap to get people to waste training time and CCP earn more money at the cost of common sense ?

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:11:56
Then why the hell do you have to train "Covert OPS" to use this ship. Seems as stupid as "Black Ops". Is it just a trap to get people to waste training time and CCP earn more money at the cost of common sense ?

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:11:56
Then why the hell do you have to train "Covert OPS" to use this ship. Seems as stupid as "Black Ops". Is it just a trap to get people to waste training time and CCP earn more money at the cost of common sense ?

---

Would you rather another skill tree to train up for them?

Besides other than the cloaky part they have similar roles and attributes, and training covert ops seems fitting to me when their partner is a cloaky ship.. otherwise you end up with train recons / combat recons as two seperate skills.. that would be a real pain having to put in double the time to fly both.

---

Originally by: Sigras

---

Edited by: Sigras on 28/08/2010 09:29:26

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:11:56
Then why the hell do you have to train "Covert OPS" to use this ship. Seems as stupid as "Black Ops". Is it just a trap to get people to waste training time and CCP earn more money at the cost of common sense ?

---

you realize that recons/covert ops ships do more than just cloak right? Now you might have a point if you had to train cloaking for these ships.

Additionally black ops ships DO cloak, they just can't warp cloaked

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

Tech 2 resists for a start, bonuses to different things... they are generally worth the money if you ask me.

Having a rapier that can web out to 70km+ is very useful, whereas the scythe pretty much cant do anything worthwhile.

Your argument also applies to HAC and Logistics if your point is based on price only.

You get what you pay for with recons, although the Hugin is rather iffy to fit nicely.

Curse is one of the best ships around in my eyes, superb at what it does, as is the rapier, falcon and rook.. Pilgrim is a little more specialised but still a great ship.

Compare them to their tech 1 counterparts and see what differences you can spot

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Black OPS ships cannot fit "Covert OPS Cloaking Devices" meaning they cannot fit a useful cloak.

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

Black ops are hardly useless chap. Their speed bonus when cloaked is a very nifty thing and their versatility and bridge capabilities are bloody superb for gurilla warfare.

I would however like to see them able to warp cloaked, I think it is something that they should already have, but their are not crippled as is.

---

Originally by: Weeka

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Black OPS ships cannot fit "Covert OPS Cloaking Devices" meaning they cannot fit a useful cloak.

---

The normal cloak is actually useful, as is the BO bonus to cloaked movment. Tbh honest I prefer it to the ability to fit a covert ops cloak on a battleship.

The op lacks a point btw.. you are complaining that the combat recons need the recon skill, well the alternative, that they wouldn't need it implies they would need another skill to justify the 2nd and 3rd bonus as well as the t2 resists.

Good luck finding the masses to stand behind you on this, because you think "this isn't fair" or something gay

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

One of the main troubles is that the roles "most" recons fill in a gang are already covered by other ships (interceptors/assault frigs), ie: tackle and disable.

However bring a azerus or a rapier/hugin or a falcon/rook to a battle and notice who gets primaried.. they are something that can add a huge amount to any fight.

My personal favourite is the curse for its sheer ability to ruin something actives day whilst still putting out more dps than most of the other recons.

If you start bringing some electronic attack frigs to a scrap along with recons and giving them a supporting role the battle will very quickly swing in your favour. In my eyes they are all worth every penny and every skill I trained to fly them all (except some of the ew frigs)

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

One of the main troubles is that the roles "most" recons fill in a gang are already covered by other ships (interceptors/assault frigs), ie: tackle and disable.

However bring a azerus or a rapier/hugin or a falcon/rook to a battle and notice who gets primaried.. they are something that can add a huge amount to any fight.

My personal favourite is the curse for its sheer ability to ruin something actives day whilst still putting out more dps than most of the other recons.

If you start bringing some electronic attack frigs to a scrap along with recons and giving them a supporting role the battle will very quickly swing in your favour. In my eyes they are all worth every penny and every skill I trained to fly them all (except some of the ew frigs)

---

Have not looked at the "curse" but will do. I am really just saying that if you have a ship grouping at least have them have a unique common ability.

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

One of the main troubles is that the roles "most" recons fill in a gang are already covered by other ships (interceptors/assault frigs), ie: tackle and disable.

However bring a azerus or a rapier/hugin or a falcon/rook to a battle and notice who gets primaried.. they are something that can add a huge amount to any fight.

My personal favourite is the curse for its sheer ability to ruin something actives day whilst still putting out more dps than most of the other recons.

If you start bringing some electronic attack frigs to a scrap along with recons and giving them a supporting role the battle will very quickly swing in your favour. In my eyes they are all worth every penny and every skill I trained to fly them all (except some of the ew frigs)

---

Have not looked at the "curse" but will do. I am really just saying that if you have a ship grouping at least have them have a unique common ability.

---

they do!

Assuming you had cloaks on them all there would be very little point in having both ships in the class.

Each pair has common skills and bonuses, just look at their descriptions. Curse/Pilgrim (advanced energy neutering), Rapier/Hugin (Long range web), Lachesis/Azerus (long points), Falcon/Rook (heavy ecm)

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

as a mission runner

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

I understand the differences in ships, as a mission runner I usually have two of each type of ship, one missile based and one laser/hybrid based but in the case of cloaking that is a major difference in capability, so much so that I really do not think they should fall into the same class.

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

One of the main troubles is that the roles "most" recons fill in a gang are already covered by other ships (interceptors/assault frigs), ie: tackle and disable.

However bring a azerus or a rapier/hugin or a falcon/rook to a battle and notice who gets primaried.. they are something that can add a huge amount to any fight.

My personal favourite is the curse for its sheer ability to ruin something actives day whilst still putting out more dps than most of the other recons.

If you start bringing some electronic attack frigs to a scrap along with recons and giving them a supporting role the battle will very quickly swing in your favour. In my eyes they are all worth every penny and every skill I trained to fly them all (except some of the ew frigs)

---

Have not looked at the "curse" but will do. I am really just saying that if you have a ship grouping at least have them have a unique common ability.

---

Originally by: Khaos The0ry

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

4rd, explain to me how any af or ceptor fills the role of a recon ... I certainly don't see how

---

That was me who mentioned frigs not him.

And when I say the roles are filled by frigs, I mean in terms of standard tackling.. Most gangs have a few interceptors / frigs that do the tackling for the gang, rather than bringing several recons to fill the roles of the tacklers.

I am not in any way saying recons are supersceeded by these frigs, merely that in a gang fast tackle is generally superior to recon tackle, thus giving these ships a more direct support role rather than BEING the tackle.

It is of course totally up to you how you fill your gangs ;) I am always happy to see a recon in my gang VERY happy indeed, they have superb utility and can throw a fight into total win, I also LOVE flying them it is a very satisfying experience.

Hope this is a bit more clear, their roles as far as tackle and point are filled by dedicated tacklers in almost all cases as you need the fast lock and mobility of a ceptor or assault frig tackler (jaguar ftw), a recon fills a support role only in most cases.


I do hope they eventually bring out some tech 3 recons, merkin would be happy
Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.

The Kamikaze pilot

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

Originally by: Khaos The0ry

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

4rd, explain to me how any af or ceptor fills the role of a recon ... I certainly don't see how

---

That was me who mentioned frigs not him.

And when I say the roles are filled by frigs, I mean in terms of standard tackling.. Most gangs have a few interceptors / frigs that do the tackling for the gang, rather than bringing several recons to fill the roles of the tacklers.

I am not in any way saying recons are supersceeded by these frigs, merely that in a gang fast tackle is generally superior to recon tackle, thus giving these ships a more direct support role rather than BEING the tackle.

It is of course totally up to you how you fill your gangs ;) I am always happy to see a recon in my gang VERY happy indeed, they have superb utility and can throw a fight into total win, I also LOVE flying them it is a very satisfying experience.

Hope this is a bit more clear, their roles as far as tackle and point are filled by dedicated tacklers in almost all cases as you need the fast lock and mobility of a ceptor or assault frig tackler (jaguar ftw), a recon fills a support role only in most cases.


I do hope they eventually bring out some tech 3 recons, merkin would be happy

---

In my experience:
In 0.0 dictors/hics/bubbles are used often with heavier tackling by heavy ships. Fast light tackle isnt used very much because its to squishy and will instadie to drone swarms of any decent fleet. Other close range support usually runs tackle in abundance. T2 cruisers and BCs, T1 BCs that are close range. You will sometimes find T2 frigs and occassionally T1.But very few of them.

In lowsec it is similar though t2 cruisers are more dominate. frig class ships cannot handle gate guns for long and since their purpose is to tackle fast they are the first to start getting shot at.

the only time i really see a lot of fast tackle use is in high sec wars where fleets tend to be smaller and gate guns dont shoot at you.

Not saying that they are never used in low and null sec only not used very often.
---------------------------
For the OP:

T2 combat recons are Ewar heavy ships by trade. They have some "decent" fighting capability but enhanced ewar capability over their t1 counterparts as well as t2 resist. Force recons have a cloaky ability but not as good ewar bonuses making them more of a surprise ewar/tackle.

Originally by: Captain Merkin

---

No only the force recon ones can fit covert cloaks.

Falcon, Pilgrim, Rapier, and Arazu I think though dont use the gallente ones often so cant remember which is which.

Combat recons are unable to fit the cloak.

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:57:04
Besides other than the cloaky part they have similar roles and attributes, and training covert
I think my question should have been "what the hell is so different from a regular cruiser and a recon cruiser other than that the recon cruiser costs up to 10x as much".

---

Originally by: Der Valkirie

---

Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:55:38
Edited by: Der Valkirie on 28/08/2010 09:22:26

Then why the hell do you have to train "Covert OPS" to use this ship.

---

Quote:

---

I think my question should have been "what the hell is so different from a regular cruiser and a recon cruiser other than that the recon cruiser costs up to 10x as much".

---