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Crime and "no" punishment?

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Serial Driller	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:48:00 - [1] First off, I realize making this post in this forum section means I will get little to no sympathy. Regardless, this is the most applicable section. Second, this isn't a "change this or I'll quit" post. I did cancel my account a few hours ago, but the decision to do that had several factors; one of which is the topic of this post. A couple of weeks ago I lost a Drake while running a mission in low-sec. I knew the risks of the mission. I thought I could get in and out of the system quickly. That wasn't the case. I didn't fault the game or the two players that blew up my ship and podded me. I gambled.. ..I lost. Game working as intended. No foul. Last night I was exploring an anomaly. Ordinary site in high-sec. No real risk. The site was populated by rogue drones. I started taking them out when another player showed up and started salvaging my wrecks. He wasn't looting them, just salvaging them and the contents of each wreck was getting deposited into cargo containers. When he started, he didn't get flagged as hostile. Apparently, any player can salvage a wreck belonging to another player and the game doesn't see this as a form of piracy. I was very upset. I asked the player to stop. He didn't. I targeted him. He continued. I warned him. He continued. I began to attack him and was warned that proceeding was criminal. So let me get this straight. Another player can salvage my wrecks and take items from my kills without any repercussions, but if I try to stop this person in any way then I will take a hit to my security status and be hunted by Concord? The person stealing has no risk and I've no way to stop them without being punished as the offender? Non sequitur. No doubt many reading this will think what happened to me is funny. Many will reply to this thread with some glib remark or flippant slight. It doesn't matter. I'm not threatening to quit; I already have. I'm not seeking sympathy because (especially in this room) I won't receive any. Just writing this in case someone at CCP might wake up and realize that this "working as intended" mechanism of flawed gaming logic has cost them at least one subscriber. I can handle piracy. I can't handle poorly thought out game mechanics that impede my enjoyment or entitlement. Originally by: K'reemy G'udness I think the kind of person who's going to do well at eve is the autodidact. This game requires self teaching, and what that doesn't cover, pain will do the rest.
Ammutseba Gangulur Minmatar Veto.	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:00:00 - [2] Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) /********** Minmatar - Brutor - For Hire Posted In Game. **********/
Glaven Firestorm	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:07:00 - [3] Edited by: Glaven Firestorm on 10/09/2010 20:07:58 I know the game allows it. That was the point of my post. It is idiotic "working as intended" logic. Yes, this is my other toon.
Exploited Engineer	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:09:00 - [4] Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 10/09/2010 20:09:26 Originally by: Serial Driller Apparently, any player can salvage a wreck belonging to another player and the game doesn't see this as a form of piracy. Yes? Quote: Another player can salvage my wrecks and take items from my kills without any repercussions, Salvaging is not taking items from your kills. The items on your kills will still be floating in space after the wreck has been salvaged. Quote: but if I try to stop this person in any way then I will take a hit to my security status and be hunted by Concord? Yeah, you're trying to shoot the janitor. You're entitled to any items on your kills, you're not entitled to salvage the wreck unless you're faster than the other guy.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Serial Driller First off, I realize making this post in this forum section means I will get little to no sympathy. Regardless, this is the most applicable section. Second, this isn't a "change this or I'll quit" post. I did cancel my account a few hours ago, but the decision to do that had several factors; one of which is the topic of this post. A couple of weeks ago I lost a Drake while running a mission in low-sec. I knew the risks of the mission. I thought I could get in and out of the system quickly. That wasn't the case. I didn't fault the game or the two players that blew up my ship and podded me. I gambled.. ..I lost. Game working as intended. No foul. Last night I was exploring an anomaly. Ordinary site in high-sec. No real risk. The site was populated by rogue drones. I started taking them out when another player showed up and started salvaging my wrecks. He wasn't looting them, just salvaging them and the contents of each wreck was getting deposited into cargo containers. When he started, he didn't get flagged as hostile. Apparently, any player can salvage a wreck belonging to another player and the game doesn't see this as a form of piracy. I was very upset. I asked the player to stop. He didn't. I targeted him. He continued. I warned him. He continued. I began to attack him and was warned that proceeding was criminal. So let me get this straight. Another player can salvage my wrecks and take items from my kills without any repercussions, but if I try to stop this person in any way then I will take a hit to my security status and be hunted by Concord? The person stealing has no risk and I've no way to stop them without being punished as the offender? Non sequitur. No doubt many reading this will think what happened to me is funny. Many will reply to this thread with some glib remark or flippant slight. It doesn't matter. I'm not threatening to quit; I already have. I'm not seeking sympathy because (especially in this room) I won't receive any. Just writing this in case someone at CCP might wake up and realize that this "working as intended" mechanism of flawed gaming logic has cost them at least one subscriber. I can handle piracy. I can't handle poorly thought out game mechanics that impede my enjoyment or entitlement. The Scottish Fold does not approve of this wall of text PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!! THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!!
Exploited Engineer	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:13:00 - [6] Oh, if you want to punish the ninja salvager, just shoot your wrecks. Then he scanned you down for nothing. Nothing like a bit of spite to mess up game theory.
Glaven Firestorm	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Exploited Engineer Oh, if you want to punish the ninja salvager, just shoot your wrecks. Then he scanned you down for nothing. Nothing like a bit of spite to mess up game theory. In your scenario, we both lose. Sure, scorched earth works but it's a pyrrhic victory. If I want to be generous with my wrecks, I can flag them as unowned. Someone taking them without permission? Sorry, I don't care if the devs say it's cool; it's still stealing. Only I can't go after the thief.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Glaven Firestorm Originally by: Exploited Engineer Oh, if you want to punish the ninja salvager, just shoot your wrecks. Then he scanned you down for nothing. Nothing like a bit of spite to mess up game theory. In your scenario, we both lose. Sure, scorched earth works but it's a pyrrhic victory. If I want to be generous with my wrecks, I can flag them as unowned. Someone taking them without permission? Sorry, I don't care if the devs say it's cool; it's still stealing. Only I can't go after the thief. You do not own the salvage. Any more than you own the roids in a grav site. (please forgive me for the carebearish example) Working as intended. Less QQ more pew pew. (Or move to nulsec where there are no rules) I like me. 101st Space Marine Force Senior Recruiter
Panda Name	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:33:00 - [9] it is really unfortunate that you have decided to leave the game, Serial Driller. i say this because generally people who have your low level of intellect often provide loot pinatas. oh well. farewell!
Felonious m0nk	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Serial Driller I can't handle poorly thought out game mechanics that impede my enjoyment or entitlement. This is the heart of your problem. You aren't "Entitled" to the salvage in any way shape or form. It is only yours if you get to it first. This is Eve Online, not Disney Online.
Ultranoia	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:55:00 - [11] This will be dealt with.
Apple Buttom	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:58:00 - [12] I like salvage being free for all, but I will say there is one specific ninja theft that doesn't produce agro the mission runner that really should. Steeling the mission objective. There are several mission where you have to fly out to say a warehouse and loot some stuff and get out before you get blown up. A nija can come in and loot from the warehouse and it does count as steeling, only they get the agro to the angel cartel(or whoever the NPC pirate is). The mission runner has no chance to be stupid and shoot the nija. This "pay me for your mission objective" grief is actually rather cool in my mind, but just like steeling from a wreck it really should give you agro to the mission runner.
Tim Lincecum	Posted - 2010.09.10 22:29:00 - [13] It is the same if someone goes through your garbage when you put it out on the street. Wrecks are basically the garbage. I get ninja-ed all the time, it doesn't bother me at all. It's not like you're really not losing that much ISK, just blitz the mission and head to the next mission. Maybe it's my kind nature, but I figure they need it more than I do. Glib remark: I will buy another account to make up for yours so CCP won't change their policy!
Aesynil Caldari The Unit...	Posted - 2010.09.10 22:36:00 - [14] Not entirely certain how this hasn't been said yet, but... Can I have your stuff?
Ronnie Smith	Posted - 2010.09.10 22:38:00 - [15] Thank you for sharing this story. Although you may be leaving EVE, These words you've left us can possibly help Salvage something from the game in the future. Also, in after Can I have your Stuff?
Nocturnal Hunter APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.09.10 22:47:00 - [16] found this game for you op http://www.hellokittyonline.com/index.php
kiki mo Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:24:00 - [17] Originally by: Glaven Firestorm Edited by: Glaven Firestorm on 10/09/2010 20:07:58 Yes, this is my other toon. Troll much? Same quote in the OP in another thread but by a different toon yet too. None of these has a drake loss in a lowsec system that I can find, although 'Glaven' has a shuttle/pod loss in nullsec. How many toons do you actually have? Be truthful, this is really Xenuria, isn't it?
Atomik Harmonik	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Ronnie Smith Thank you for sharing this story. Although you may be leaving EVE, These words you've left us can possibly help Salvage something from the game in the future. Also, in after Can I have your Stuff? Ronnie Smith is the OP of the same cut/paste whine in another thread
Ronnie Smith	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:34:00 - [19] actually the OP here is the OP, check the time stamps =)
Gregor Vernof Voodoo Tactical	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:53:00 - [20] Is it that time already? 0/10: Yes even though his sentence structure and formation of thought was better than most I still give this Troll zero points since there is no flesh left on this dead horse. I might have been tempted to give him a 1/10 if there was more emo rage and tears.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:59:00 - [21] Quote: Sorry, I don't care if the devs say it's cool; it's still stealing. Erm... how can it possibly be stealing if it doesn't belong to you in the first place (which it doesn't)? The fact that you feel like it belongs to you isn't the same thing as it actually belonging to you. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:33:00 - [22] They're not salvaging your wrecks because they want or need it. They do it to ** you off. They get their enjoyment from knowing you aren't getting yours. And to be honest, no matter where you go, there will be players that use the game as a tool to grief. Although I will admit that in Eve, because of the way the game has been designed, it tends to attract more of the ***** types than perhaps any other game out there. You just have to learn to deal with them, or not. In other words, show them it doesn't bother you in the slightest what they are doing, and sure enough, like bored children bullies they will leave tormented looking for someone else to make miserable. In this case, I'm sorry to tell you, they've won. You have done exactly what they wanted you to do. They wanted you to complain about your losses on your way out so they can giggle about it. If instead you offer them your salvage and continue playing they will leave you alone. You don't know how many times I've invited ninjas to salvage all my missions. And after the open invitation they just leave. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Spruillo Gallente Yawn another Corp	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Gregor Vernof Is it that time already? 0/10: Yes even though his sentence structure and formation of thought was better than most I still give this Troll zero points since there is no flesh left on this dead horse. I might have been tempted to give him a 1/10 if there was more emo rage and tears. 1/10 easy, whats ammata you? The suppressed emo rage and tears are oozing thru the cracks. FRUITCASE WARNING IF YUR EVR FROLICKING THRU THE FOREST PICKING STRAWBERRIES AND MUSHROOM AND OP WAS OUT THERE FIRST HE WILL GO INTO RAGE AND SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD AND THEN RAGEQUIT LIFE
ItsmeHcK1 The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Aesynil Not entirely certain how this hasn't been said yet, but... Can I have your stuff? Dammit, I was gonna do that. :(
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:43:00 - [25] Originally by: Serial Driller I can handle piracy. I can't handle poorly thought out game mechanics that impede my enjoyment or entitlement. they are not "poorly thought out game mechanics that impede my enjoyment or entitlement", they are "well thought out game mechanics that give enjoyment to others at my expense". anyways, wall-o-text. and you seem to be trollin'. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Ran Khanon Amarr Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:50:00 - [26] Eloquent troll is eloquent +1 Recruiting.
Sekhmet Orion Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:23:00 - [27] Text book troll. One post, then leave the idiots to argue. For me your cover was blown with Quote: I targeted him. He continued. I warned him. He continued. I began to attack him and was warned that proceeding was criminal. No one thinks a mission running fit with no scram could do anything other that agro yourself, and get ganked when the frig swaps ship after warping out. The funniest thing about salvage tears is that if the bears could shoot salvagers, there would be a lot more posts about how they think it's unfair that their mission ship got blown up.
MeestaPenni Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.11 02:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Glaven Firestorm Edited by: Glaven Firestorm on 10/09/2010 20:07:58 Yes, this is my other toon. You said "toon". Go away.
Ka Jolo The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.09.11 05:38:00 - [29] Think about this for a moment from the perspective of the NPC "rat": There he is, minding his own business, when suddenly the "mission runner" shows up and starts blasting away. Does CONCORD intervene? No. Full of honor, the NPC and his mates fight to the forordained end, even though you've not scrammed them. Then--here comes the "ninja salvager." He procedes to salvage the wrecks, leaving the cargo intact--and the "mission runner" objects! You're saying the game is "broken" because when CONCORD neither punishes you for attacking NPC ships nor punishes some other pilot for salvaging the wrecks of those same NPC's.
Misanth Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.09.11 05:43:00 - [30] So what the OP is saying is that he doesn't like this game? - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.

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