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X Dressah
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Posted - 2010.09.12 07:28:00 -
[1]
Hi
I'm in a 0.0 alliance that wants to keep their region's 0.0 prices low.
They have 2 rules.
1)You cannot buy stuff and relist at a higher price (I agree with this one and adhere to it)
2) You must sell stuff at no more than Jita + 20%.
This rule I suspect is deeply flawed.
An ex-blue who has left a jump clone at the station can jump in buy up all the Jita + 20% items and relist at what they should be selling for and make a killing on a regular basis.
Am I right? I was hoping some economics propellor-head could give his opinion so I can copy-paste it to my alliance leader so that he could rethink the position.
TIA |
X Dressah
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Posted - 2010.09.12 07:33:00 -
[2]
Forgot to mention:
The effect of nr 2) means that I won't bother doing trading. Getting stuff from Jita to 0.0 for a lousy 20% profit is not worth my time. So I won't bother doing it. If others feel the same in my region our market will start to get understocked. So the rule will have the opposite effect of what it was there for. Prices will go up.
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.12 07:49:00 -
[3]
Well, maybe there are those who would want to do that. But, why would an industrialist haul out BPCs (or even BPOs) just to be limited to Jita + 20%? Seems like a hassle for little extra gain.
There are larger markets with better prices in high-sec. |
israus
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.09.12 08:50:00 -
[4]
most 0.0 allainces do that its for the simply reason that if prices are to high people don't get out of pvp. though to be honest it would depend on how busy the station is and how easy it is to get gear to it weather or not it would be worth it for 20% because 20% if its just 1 JF jump can still turn a good profit if the station is fairly active.
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Kanatta Jing
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Posted - 2010.09.12 09:50:00 -
[5]
Depends.
For massive stack investments brought in by an alliance JF at discounted rates it's a good solid rule.
For local T1 manufacture 20% over local mineral prices would be much better.
If no one is willing supply Multi M for less then a million ISK a unit and the paranoid CEO has stripped you of access to the Ammo hanger then you're allowed to manufacture and sell Multi M at 100k or a 900% profit margin which ever is lower.
Cause 630k worth of rip-off really beats begging for a half hour on vent for 70k worth of junk before a fleet fight.
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John Comer
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Posted - 2010.09.12 10:01:00 -
[6]
selling at a too high price will usualy end up with someone importing the stuff and selling at a more reasonable price.
Setting a fixed price market by the allaince is wrong as it will drive out competition and will make for a poor market. Why would you spend the time, effort and costs fro just 20% price increase before that.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.12 10:12:00 -
[7]
Plethoras of NPC corp alts ever inhabited those 0.0 "main hubs" and sold at whatever price the market lets them to. Of course all know those NPC alts are off the guys in the alliance.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
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Hamno
M. Corp
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.09.12 11:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hamno on 12/09/2010 11:39:36
This is an argument that has been brought up in every alliance I have ever been in(well, except the current one). Many emo-forum tears have already been spent on dozens of alliance forums out there...and I truly doubt your going to convince your alliance leader to change.
What I can tell you is that Jita+20% isnt actually to bad. Yes it'll feel terrible when your just getting started with your first 100-200m worth of trading capital but at this point just bring out small amounts of many different items and run back to empire frequently(therefore dramatically increasing your turnover instead of having 300 damage control 2s on the market).
Once you build up the trading capital and have 5-6 billion on the market and have sales of 1-2 billion/day you'll be earning 200-400m/day minus the cost of fuel. It wont take to long..just have a little patience.
The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Danari
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Posted - 2010.09.12 12:16:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Danari on 12/09/2010 12:16:20
I used to get flamed constantly for pricing issues, and my response was 'you don't like it, import it yourself you lazy f**k'.
I started importing in the first place because local market was f**ked and I couldn't fit my ships, and once a couple/few other importers got involved then the problem sorted itself out. It only takes two importers for the real value of any item to establish itself, really.
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Mr SmartGuy
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Posted - 2010.09.12 14:48:00 -
[10]
It's not flawed. Just keep producing huge quantities of stuff and let him buy until he runs out if isk.
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kla samon
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Posted - 2010.09.12 16:11:00 -
[11]
What region are you in? I'll fly down there in my cov ops and set yer market straight for you. Then you'll be able to trade at any price you want
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Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.12 16:19:00 -
[12]
 Originally by: X Dressah
Hi
I'm in a 0.0 alliance that wants to keep their region's 0.0 prices low.
They have 2 rules.
1)You cannot buy stuff and relist at a higher price (I agree with this one and adhere to it)
2) You must sell stuff at no more than Jita + 20%.
I think the free market better solves two problems:
A flat 20% doesn't account for the different trading volumes on different items. For example, a 20% markup on commonly used ammo would probably very quickly turn into a 20% profit; while a 20% markup on a gang link module would take a very long time to make anything, and likely just be a profitless order used up. In Jita, and especially in smaller hubs, we see the margins on really high volume items therefore becomes razor thin, while the margin on less common items is higher.
A flat 20% doesn't account for item physical volume. When station trading this doesn't matter so much, but when you have to ferry things to 0.0 then there's a big difference between a 100 million isk HAC and a 100 million isk implant or skillbook.
Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.12 16:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: X Dressah
An ex-blue who has left a jump clone at the station can jump in buy up all the Jita + 20% items and relist at what they should be selling for and make a killing on a regular basis.
IF you have enough guys in your alliance who are willing to import stuff on a regular basis for Jita + 20%, then the hypothetical ex-blue should not be able to inflict much harm. By buying out the cheap sell orders instantly, he will accumulate stock while the friendly traders will reap in profits at an extremely high rate of turnover. This game is stacked in favor of the importing party.
If your logistics guys/traders cba to import stuff at such a low margin or are only willing to import those items with a very high turnover (e.g.: low slot mods are available, high slot mods largely missing from the market), then you have a point.
But one dedicated jumpfreighter pilot who is willing to maintain low prices will make it very hard for anyone else to jack up the price level without having to take disproportional losses.
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Tom Sasaki
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Posted - 2010.09.12 16:21:00 -
[14]
Well due to carrier/trailerspawns minerals are generally a lot cheaper in my part of 0.0 than they are in jita.
So jita + 20% should yeild a higher profit than minerals + 20% |
JackBlasta
Minmatar
P.A.N.I.C
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Posted - 2010.09.12 16:52:00 -
[15]
tbh your alliance leadership sounds like a mad raving homo ;)
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2010.09.12 17:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: JackBlasta
tbh your alliance leadership sounds like a mad raving homo ;)
Probably just a bit of a control freak.
Frankly there are many things that leaders, corp or alliance, should simply stay out of and this is one of them.
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.12 17:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zeta Zhul
Originally by: JackBlasta
tbh your alliance leadership sounds like a mad raving homo ;)
Probably just a bit of a control freak.
Frankly there are many things that leaders, corp or alliance, should simply stay out of and this is one of them.
Yup.
Honestly, there's too much of a difference between Jita (high-sec, high-traffic, relatively high-safety) and 0.0 (null-sec, low traffic, and variable safety) to tie prices together. This just doesn't make much sense.
Bringing in stocks via jump freighters is fine. And, will work for your alliance.
However, why would a builder want to operate in that environment (outside of sheer enjoyment, that trumps all, since this is a game)? My library of researched BPOs is safely locked down in a station that cannot be taken by another alliance. My trade routes are relatively safe (I trade in Jita). And I don't have to deal with alliance politics. Plus, prices are relatively static (outside of some kids playing with the mineral market). Supplies are bountiful.
So, much more risk and hassle for 20% more? Why bother? I'll just move to smaller hub, keep my BPOs safe, and get better prices. |
William Pierce
Caldari
Blue Sun Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.12 20:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: X Dressah
Hi
I'm in a 0.0 alliance that wants to keep their region's 0.0 prices low.
They have 2 rules.
1)You cannot buy stuff and relist at a higher price (I agree with this one and adhere to it)
2) You must sell stuff at no more than Jita + 20%.
This rule I suspect is deeply flawed.
An ex-blue who has left a jump clone at the station can jump in buy up all the Jita + 20% items and relist at what they should be selling for and make a killing on a regular basis.
Am I right? I was hoping some economics propellor-head could give his opinion so I can copy-paste it to my alliance leader so that he could rethink the position.
TIA
First rule is fine, I think it's actually quite a good idea.
Second is probably really annoying, and doesn't really give much of a gain. I don't see any real reason to cap the market like this.
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JackBlasta
Minmatar
P.A.N.I.C
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Posted - 2010.09.12 21:23:00 -
[19]
Edited by: JackBlasta on 12/09/2010 21:24:09
Originally by: X Dressah
Hi
I'm in a 0.0 alliance that wants to keep their region's 0.0 prices low.
They have 2 rules.
1)You cannot buy stuff and relist at a higher price (I agree with this one and adhere to it)
2) You must sell stuff at no more than Jita + 20%.
This rule I suspect is deeply flawed.
An ex-blue who has left a jump clone at the station can jump in buy up all the Jita + 20% items and relist at what they should be selling for and make a killing on a regular basis.
Am I right? I was hoping some economics propellor-head could give his opinion so I can copy-paste it to my alliance leader so that he could rethink the position.
TIA
actually this sounds pretty similiar to what an acquaintance in an NC pure-blind based alliance told me recently. They had a no-resell and Jita +15% rule enforced. Apparantly they were told the rule had to be enforced as it was followed by the entire NC web of alliances in respect to their 0.0 markets.
From what he said, the rule relating to markup % has resulted in very poor market out there.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.14 15:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Michela
Yup.
Honestly, there's too much of a difference between Jita (high-sec, high-traffic, relatively high-safety) and 0.0 (null-sec, low traffic, and variable safety) to tie prices together. This just doesn't make much sense.
Bringing in stocks via jump freighters is fine. And, will work for your alliance.
However, why would a builder want to operate in that environment (outside of sheer enjoyment, that trumps all, since this is a game)? My library of researched BPOs is safely locked down in a station that cannot be taken by another alliance. My trade routes are relatively safe (I trade in Jita). And I don't have to deal with alliance politics. Plus, prices are relatively static (outside of some kids playing with the mineral market). Supplies are bountiful.
So, much more risk and hassle for 20% more? Why bother? I'll just move to smaller hub, keep my BPOs safe, and get better prices.
Well, there are guys in this game who have team spirit and good friends to fly with. It's not all about ISK. I just feel better if I place a sell order with small profit (for the effort and transportation costs) so that my allies can buy relatively cheap stuff. There's no satisfaction in ripping them off just to become an ***hole with a fat wallet, at least not for me there isn't. Besides, if you live in 0.0 space you can make huge amounts of ISK in so many ways that you simply don't need to rip someone off to make a profit.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.09.14 15:21:00 -
[21]
You're alliance clearly don't know how to use 0.0 markets.
Any one could come along and buy up the entire station and relist at a higher price. You don't need a jump clone, just a few days skills and you can do it as well.
If they want to try and keep prices low, let us know and I'm sure one of the MD Alts will be around to jack the market 
Amarr for Life |
Charles37
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Posted - 2010.09.14 18:36:00 -
[22]
To take this out of hypothetical terms, I have a JC out in a 0.0 outpost (also in a region with no NPC outposts) and I do exactly what the OP is describing. Every 2-3 weeks I will jump out, buy up the entire region's stock of certain items that I have identified, and relist them with at least a 100% markup. Because my goods are now the only game in town, people are forced to buy from me, I end up making a fantastic profit, especially because the market is not frequently restocked with the products that I deal in.
As an example, about 2-3 months ago I bought up every single Scourge Heavy Missile in the region. Going off memory, for most of these I paid 40-60 isk/unit, with the Jita price being around 30 isk/unit at the time. I promptly relisted all 450k or so missiles at 200 isk. Every single missile sold.
Of course, that's not to say that the *only* way I get my stock is by buying what's already listed. I also place buy orders for items at believeable (but still under cost) prices, which I then relist at my very high prices, so even though people are producing in the region, they sell to me and I remain in control of supply.
The only real way to deal with this, as far as I know, is just to have people that are willing to JF in supplies on a consistent basis (and how know what supplies to bring, not just a random assortment of crap). If the person who's making all these JF runs doesn't think it's worth their time, they won't make the trips, meaning you have to pay my enormous markups.
In the end, you have to ask yourself, which would you rather prefer: a Jita +30-60% markup, making it worth the while of someone to seed the market, or my markup of Jita + 200% or more?
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2010.09.14 19:41:00 -
[23]
Friedman > Keynes
A free market will always work better than a manipulated one.
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Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.14 19:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Friedman > Keynes
A free market will always work better than a manipulated one.
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Kublai Kahhn
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse
Friedman > Keynes
A free market will always work better than a manipulated one.
Keynes wanted the government to raise/lower taxes and raise/lower spending to affect the countries economic growth, not putting up price ceilings
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Morganta
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Posted - 2010.09.15 03:04:00 -
[26]
so your little hillbilly 0.0 general store is engaged in pricefixing eh?
where are you located? I'll come over and show you how to turn a profit
or is the idea to make your hillbilly 0.0 general store affordable to you broke-ass peckerwoods who can't afford ammo for your gank shuttles?
meh either way its fail, someone should save your system from your coonass ways... tear down that cracker barrel and put up a Chili's
and for the love of god, put some clothes on them youngins...
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.15 07:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Well, there are guys in this game who have team spirit and good friends to fly with. It's not all about ISK. I just feel better if I place a sell order with small profit (for the effort and transportation costs) so that my allies can buy relatively cheap stuff. There's no satisfaction in ripping them off just to become an ***hole with a fat wallet, at least not for me there isn't. Besides, if you live in 0.0 space you can make huge amounts of ISK in so many ways that you simply don't need to rip someone off to make a profit.
You should try reading my messages before posting. I was talking from the point of view of a producer, not someone who'll buy in high-sec and re-sell in null-sec. |
Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.15 14:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Michela
You should try reading my messages before posting. I was talking from the point of view of a producer, not someone who'll buy in high-sec and re-sell in null-sec.
Uhm.. where exactly did I say I was a trader?
To clarify:
- my alliance as one of the biggest in game is almost under constant war which limits my movement in highsec;
- since I'm just a member with basic roles, I don't have much options to produce stuff where I live;
- I buy minerals in highsec, hire freighter service that will bring the minerals in factory for me;
- start the job and get back to 0.0;
- when the job is done, hire freighter service again to deliver the items/ships/whatever to the jump system;
- internal jump freighter service helps me get the goods on the market;
There's your effort of organizing everything (and delivering stuff across the region for sale), and there are your transportation costs.
So, I'm still a producer.
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quygen
Minmatar
Acting Neutral
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Posted - 2010.09.15 14:59:00 -
[29]
Why sell stuff @ MAX Jita +20% when your Ex-blue?
Jita+ 100% for Items
Jita+ 50% for the rest
sounds so much better (And fills the wallet better toooooooooo...)
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.15 16:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Originally by: Michela
You should try reading my messages before posting. I was talking from the point of view of a producer, not someone who'll buy in high-sec and re-sell in null-sec.
Uhm.. where exactly did I say I was a trader?
To clarify:
- my alliance as one of the biggest in game is almost under constant war which limits my movement in highsec;
- since I'm just a member with basic roles, I don't have much options to produce stuff where I live;
- I buy minerals in highsec, hire freighter service that will bring the minerals in factory for me;
- start the job and get back to 0.0;
- when the job is done, hire freighter service again to deliver the items/ships/whatever to the jump system;
- internal jump freighter service helps me get the goods on the market;
There's your effort of organizing everything (and delivering stuff across the region for sale), and there are your transportation costs.
So, I'm still a producer.
o.0
Sounds like someone needs an NPC-corp alt.
***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing
*Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories
*Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
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