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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2010.09.13 16:53:00 -
[1]
CCP Veritas' new "Fixing Lag" blog focuses on player module repeat optimization. You can read all about it here.
Fallout
Associate Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
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London
Void-Wolf
Propter Falco
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:01:00 -
[2]
IBC, and awesome job. Does this only apply to Civilian guns for now? I understand it's a stepping stone towards other module optimization.
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:02:00 -
[3]
I like it cuz u used mission runners as guinea pigs.
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Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
SirHarryPierce
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:09:00 -
[4]
Nice read.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:10:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: London
IBC, and awesome job. Does this only apply to Civilian guns for now? I understand it's a stepping stone towards other module optimization.
This applies to any module that is repeating.
Civilian modules were used in the in-lab tests simply to make sure that inventory operations on ammo didn't introduce any noise in the measurements.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson
Software Director
EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:14:00 -
[6]
Great job! Glad you guys are still hot on the trail and making active improvements. I'm loving the amount of new blogs... I hope CCP keeps going with them when the "crisis" is over. 
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
Blog
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:16:00 -
[7]
Nice to see quantifiable progress in both fighting lag and communicating with players.
Full marks 
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Firartix
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:18:00 -
[8]
Great job! I hope you CCP guys will continue to improve stuff to improve server performance.
Though - you didn't say anything about performance improvements regarding massive fleetfights and stuff. If i recall correctly the problem is mostly about repeating, then i guess it'd have a wide impact.... We wantz numberz !
BTW, First first page !
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Amy Garzan
Gallente
The Warp Rats
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:19:00 -
[9]
5% is better than nothing. Keep up the good work.
Lol and nice finding something civ modules are good for finally.
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101010 The Answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything |
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm loving the amount of new blogs... I hope CCP keeps going with them
I for one certainly plan to. The report structure of this is something we've been doing internally just for our own bookkeeping and peer review purposes. Converting them to devblogs is fairly painless. I'm not saying all of them are going to hit devblog, but the big ones should.
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dangerfan
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:21:00 -
[11]
Props for using a horrible corporate buzz-word (Low hanging fruit)
I have a question about the general cpu usage graph at the end. The graph's sample size shows there are 2 down-times before the flag, and 4 down-times after the flag. Was this taken into consideration when calculating the average cpu usage, as to not skew the results?
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Firartix
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:31:00 -
[12]
It's just average... along with less dts, there's less CPU load time (since the server has been running for shorter durations) - so it all rounds up
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Yingpang
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:36:00 -
[13]
that reminds me of the work i do :) very cool stuff!! :) would be interesting to see with what kind of tools your working to analyze the details of your problem e.g. how much is home made monitoring tools and if you work with performance measurement tools which are available on the marked
side note: my job is to a big extend doing performance measurements for web applications which create similar effects on the back-end e.g. DB, where you never expected that a certain action in the front-end caused so many db calls, where actually the programmer should know but because its getting so complex can't really see it until you test and monitor it.
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Gecko O'Bac
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm loving the amount of new blogs... I hope CCP keeps going with them
I for one certainly plan to. The report structure of this is something we've been doing internally just for our own bookkeeping and peer review purposes. Converting them to devblogs is fairly painless. I'm not saying all of them are going to hit devblog, but the big ones should.
Yay for more geekiness! Spread it all around!
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: dangerfan
I have a question about the general cpu usage graph at the end. The graph's sample size shows there are 2 down-times before the flag, and 4 down-times after the flag. Was this taken into consideration when calculating the average cpu usage, as to not skew the results?
Don't take that graph too seriously. CPU usage per player is a pretty squishy metric to begin with, and no two days in Eve are the same. If I could take 15 days with the change and 15 without, then compare the numbers for those in aggregate, it would be much more meaningful. Of course, that would mean 30 days of not being able to do anything else to the cluster, which is not a cost I'm willing to pay.
The take-away from the last chart isn't that it was an exact 5% drop (that number came from eyeballing the graph, so, yeah, really weak), but rather that a cluster-wide effect was felt. For such a trivial change, that's awesome. Well, 8.5 awesomes, to be exact.
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Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:37:00 -
[16]
<3 |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:40:00 -
[17]
\o/
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:57:00 -
[18]
MOZO
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Aranial
Gallente
Empyrean Warriors
Lux Caelestia
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:16:00 -
[19]
*\o/*
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Taedrin
Gallente
White Haven Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:22:00 -
[20]
In after Chribba.
I love these new devblogs. *NORMALLY*, we wouldn't get any new devblogs until a few months before the next expansion rolls out. Filling in the dead time with lag fixes, bug fixes and other tech blogs is a great way to make your customers happy.
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Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Grez
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:24:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Grez on 13/09/2010 18:24:39
I liked the part where you fixed some lag. Awesome job CCP <3!
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Luke S
Zeta Corp.
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:31:00 -
[22]
I just find if funny that a nearly useless gun can use so much CPU. when I read the Dev blog. All I can do was laugh. Keep kicking that lag monster's ass. as well as remove its dignity.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:41:00 -
[23]
On one hand, I'm very sad that this took this many years to fix. On the other hand, I'm glad it's better now. Well done, in any case.
===
"The data does not support that polished quality sells better than new features"
"Once Incarna and Dust are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement"
CCP, FTW? |
Stick Cult
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:49:00 -
[24]
I love blogs...
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:54:00 -
[25]
Might this fix be related to the much longer time it now takes to switch crystals on active guns?
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:55:00 -
[26]
awesome 
Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users! |
Hashin Kyojin
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Hashin Kyojin on 13/09/2010 18:56:16
nice job ccp!
keep up the good work :)
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mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.13 19:00:00 -
[28]
This should really help fleet battles out! Great job CCP, find a couple more bugs like this and we'll be having smooth 1500 man fleet fights
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.09.13 19:21:00 -
[29]
Excellent. Nice catch and fix! Hopefully will put that 5% improvement to use soon.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.09.13 19:39:00 -
[30]
CCP Veritas is my new hero
But he needs to learn how to use pie charts. I wants moar pie charts!!!
Quote:
Aedun Sole > flying with lyk is like flying a bus filled with 5 year old children
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Charles37
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Posted - 2010.09.13 20:22:00 -
[31]
I'll read the rest of the blog after I've stripped my Maelstrom of it's current setup in favor of one the CCP sanctioned setup that uses all Civilian modules.
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.13 20:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Charles37
I'll read the rest of the blog after I've stripped my Maelstrom of it's current setup in favor of one the CCP sanctioned setup that uses all Civilian modules.
I'm tellin' ya, it can kill a Titan! Well, so long as the Titan isn't piloted and you have a lot of time.
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Sedilis
Lead Farmers
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Posted - 2010.09.13 20:56:00 -
[33]
Another nice blog.
Can we have more graphs showing the "Awesomeness rating" please 
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Ulair Memmet
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2010.09.13 20:56:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Charles37
I'll read the rest of the blog after I've stripped my Maelstrom of it's current setup in favor of one the CCP sanctioned setup that uses all Civilian modules.
I'm tellin' ya, it can kill a Titan! Well, so long as the Titan isn't piloted and you have a lot of time.
... and a hack to disable the titan's passive shield recharging ^^
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Nye Jaran
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Posted - 2010.09.13 21:59:00 -
[35]
Good blog, but your math is wrong here:
Quote:
A drop from approx 82% CPU to approx 35%, a 57% improvement
Should be a 47% improvement, or the pre /post number(s) are wrong.
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ReddSky
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Posted - 2010.09.13 22:16:00 -
[36]
Great Job CCP. This kind of investigation / improvement on module lag is what players have been asking for for ages. Please keep up this kind of work, much appreciated.
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StonerPhReaK
Imperial Tau Syndicate
Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.09.13 22:26:00 -
[37]
Good Job CCP.Keep up the good work.
The mouths of many are heard far and wide when errything is borked,Fix it and hear nothing back in the way of thank you's.I guess silence is indeed golden.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.09.13 22:50:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Good blog, but your math is wrong here:
Quote:
A drop from approx 82% CPU to approx 35%, a 57% improvement
Should be a 47% improvement, or the pre /post number(s) are wrong.
82% to 35% is an improvement of 47 percentage points but 1-35/82 is 0.57 or 57%.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson
Software Director
EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.13 22:52:00 -
[39]
Damn it Explorer, beat me to it!
But yeah, what he said. Relative difference is what matters, not absolute.
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R4 D2
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Posted - 2010.09.13 23:02:00 -
[40]
- Corporate buzzword [Check]
- Mission runners used as guinea pigs [Check]
- Lag reduced by a significant percent [Check]
DevBlog aproved!
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Elzon1
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Posted - 2010.09.13 23:38:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Elzon1 on 13/09/2010 23:38:41
Good blog and using missioners as guinea pigs very nice 
So you guys are still looking for lag it seems. Perhaps a map would help? Maybe an interactive coding display of all the previous expansions compared against each other would help? Perhaps with such a display you could plug various data from player tests or thin client tests to test for errors or ineffeciencies. Maybe make lag appear as red through the map comparisons so you can "see" where the lag resides in the coding itself 
You guys already have something like this? 
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Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.09.14 00:06:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 14/09/2010 00:07:23
Sooo, Ive gotta ask: Why wasnt something this simple investigated sooner?
Regardless, good job! BTW, since this was such an easy catch, might I suggest searching for ALL instances of the server creating dummy instances of a ship (edit: or any object for that matter!) and querying them to see if those might be fruitful as well?
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.14 01:48:00 -
[43]
\o/ yay blogs!
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Hack Harrison
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.14 02:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 14/09/2010 00:07:23
Sooo, Ive gotta ask: Why wasnt something this simple investigated sooner?
Regardless, good job! BTW, since this was such an easy catch, might I suggest searching for ALL instances of the server creating dummy instances of a ship (edit: or any object for that matter!) and querying them to see if those might be fruitful as well?
Because they didn't have the thin client infrastructure available earlier 
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.09.14 05:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Amy Garzan
5% is better than nothing. Keep up the good work.
Better than nothing?
I think you are failing to understand how much of a ****le in the pants moment finding a easy-to-apply 5% optimization in a mature high-performance system really is...
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.09.14 06:22:00 -
[46]
Great work!
A 5% drop in overall load is quite remarkable for a single optimization.
Do you use any profiling tools to find those bottlenecks/hot spots or do you have code reviews to find them?
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Amicus Morte
Shock an Awe
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:56:00 -
[47]
Nice work. Did you get same results using missiles and guns or is that just an assumption ?
Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenĘt built for this!
Clear Skies - The Movie
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Nice work. Did you get same results using missiles and guns or is that just an assumption ?
All repeating modules.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson
Software Director
EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Nye Jaran
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Posted - 2010.09.14 12:55:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Good blog, but your math is wrong here:
Quote:
A drop from approx 82% CPU to approx 35%, a 57% improvement
Should be a 47% improvement, or the pre /post number(s) are wrong.
82% to 35% is an improvement of 47 percentage points but 1-35/82 is 0.57 or 57%.
Ah, didn't think of it like that. Suppose that's why you people all run the game and I just play the thing.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.14 13:05:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Nice work. Did you get same results using missiles and guns or is that just an assumption ?
All repeating modules.
Since this is the case, would it not be a good idea, as several people have suggested, to consider making some common modules passive -- such as Damage/Drone Control Units?
Or is the current overhead for repeating modules low enough now that ~1 less repeating module per pew-pewing ship (and one less command per jumpin) is not enough of a win?
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 14:08:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Nice work. Did you get same results using missiles and guns or is that just an assumption ?
All repeating modules.
Since this is the case, would it not be a good idea, as several people have suggested, to consider making some common modules passive -- such as Damage/Drone Control Units?
Or is the current overhead for repeating modules low enough now that ~1 less repeating module per pew-pewing ship (and one less command per jumpin) is not enough of a win?
Damn good question. CCP?
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UVPhoenix2
Rim Collection RC
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.09.14 14:28:00 -
[52]
Good work CCP. Dev updates like this are always fun to read. Keep 'em coming!
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Always do whatever's next. |
EdgeOf Insanity
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Posted - 2010.09.14 15:10:00 -
[53]
Edited by: EdgeOf Insanity on 14/09/2010 15:10:45
Nvm, someone already pwnt it.
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.14 17:42:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Since this is the case, would it not be a good idea, as several people have suggested, to consider making some common modules passive -- such as Damage/Drone Control Units?
I don't know how much of a win it would be offhand, but I have been keeping an eye on your thread over in the Assembly about it. Very interesting discussion, that.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.09.14 20:59:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Since this is the case, would it not be a good idea, as several people have suggested, to consider making some common modules passive -- such as Damage/Drone Control Units?
I don't know how much of a win it would be offhand, but I have been keeping an eye on your thread over in the Assembly about it. Very interesting discussion, that.
Zagdul has suggested that you test this during an upcoming mass test; it would seem to me that it would be pretty easy to do a thin-client test and follow it up with a live test if it is promising. Even if it shaves 1/2% off the load, that's a nice little win, and best of all, you can dump all the work on another team! 
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician
Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Noun Verber
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.15 03:43:00 -
[56]
You claim that "players using modules is a very common thing", but offer no proof!
Shenanigans!
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Melchior Grimm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.15 05:08:00 -
[57]
Thank you devs. I appreciate the blogs as well as the lag fixes.
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Disgusting Carebear
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Posted - 2010.09.15 07:45:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Noun Verber
You claim that "players using modules is a very common thing", but offer no proof!
Shenanigans!
Can we have some clarification on this please?
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Joey's Mom
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Posted - 2010.09.15 22:28:00 -
[59]
"low hanging *********", that is all!
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Andrevv
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.16 01:46:00 -
[60]
Seeing as 0.0 combat involves manual cycling anyway, I don't expect this particular optimization to have any impact on fleet fights. Good job regardless :)
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Nice work. Did you get same results using missiles and guns or is that just an assumption ?
All repeating modules.
Originally by: Blog
Analysis showed that most of this CPU time was spent determining if the module was in the process of reloading whenever it was repeated.
Am I understanding this correctly, that any repeating module, regardless of whether it takes a charge, does a query to check if its charge group is empty?? because that is what the blog is implying... which seems kind of pointless.
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Samuel Miner
Caldari
Perilous Expedition
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Posted - 2010.09.16 03:10:00 -
[61]
Man I read this stuff and wonder if there is anyone home on that island coding sometimes. Even my little coding projects I spend some time optimizing for the hell of it. Someone is coding for a high demand, heavy load game that is experiencing lag issues, and it never occurs to them to check this stuff out?
The only excuse would have to be really old code right?
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2010.09.16 17:30:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Andrevv
Seeing as 0.0 combat involves manual cycling anyway, I don't expect this particular optimization to have any impact on fleet fights. Good job regardless :)
I had a look at the code again and wish to issue a correction. This check happens on every module activation or repeat, so it will impact manual cycling just the same.
Originally by: Andrevv
Am I understanding this correctly, that any repeating module, regardless of whether it takes a charge, does a query to check if its charge group is empty?? because that is what the blog is implying... which seems kind of pointless.
Yes, you are understanding correctly. Thankfully, after this change, it's almost certainly cheaper to ask "Is this reloading?" than "Can this have charges? If so, is it reloading?"
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Zagdul
Gallente
Shadowed Command
Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.19 06:58:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Zagdul on 19/09/2010 07:05:39
Edited by: Zagdul on 19/09/2010 07:04:48
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Since this is the case, would it not be a good idea, as several people have suggested, to consider making some common modules passive -- such as Damage/Drone Control Units?
I don't know how much of a win it would be offhand, but I have been keeping an eye on your thread over in the Assembly about it. Very interesting discussion, that.
Zagdul has suggested that you test this during an upcoming mass test; it would seem to me that it would be pretty easy to do a thin-client test and follow it up with a live test if it is promising. Even if it shaves 1/2% off the load, that's a nice little win, and best of all, you can dump all the work on another team!
On that post, I also listed another bug which caused the "reappearing ships in space"...
If you take 10-20 SB's and launch them at a fleet, lag is unbearable.
You lose control of your client and things such as warping become impossible, even if you're aligned and ready to go.
CCP, setup your thin client and launch some bombs at a bunch of battleships. If you can also throw a few broadcasts, you'll replicate some insane lag.
http://fatalascension.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14014
According to that page, my ship had 32k armor hp as well as another 10k hull. If you look at the bombs that hit me:
7 Concussion Bombs and 5 scorch.
With resists and the mechanic behind bombs of a different damage type destroying each other, I should not have died.
However, since the server load was so intense, it didn't calculate the bombs blowing each other up before hitting the fleet thus we lost a few ships on the run.
I was also being repped through this.
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Thunder1971
Caldari
Virtual Warriors
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2010.09.20 12:42:00 -
[64]
Getting there step by step.
Every little bit helps, with lots of work ahead.
I'm very happy that decent progress is made on the subject.
TBH one of the bigger challenges of this project...good luck in your future efforts.
Good work team.
"comrades in arms know the meaning of true friendship". |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.20 20:21:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/09/2010 20:22:00
Originally by: Samuel Miner
Man I read this stuff and wonder if there is anyone home on that island coding sometimes. Even my little coding projects I spend some time optimizing for the hell of it. Someone is coding for a high demand, heavy load game that is experiencing lag issues, and it never occurs to them to check this stuff out?
The only excuse would have to be really old code right?
There are problems of "scale" and "time requirements" that I think you're missing out on. Frankly, if you spend tons of time optimizing the hell out of all your production code, you're probably not a good programmer. I'd really rather have someone on my team who outputs 90% of the performance quality you do and puts out 500% of the work - because the difference will be that dramatic.
-Liang
Ed: Which isn't to say that there's not times and places to optimize the hell out of something - because there damn sure is. But saying you should optimize the hell out of everything is pretty naive.
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
Blog
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ectweak
Amarr
Team JAVELIN
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Posted - 2010.09.21 17:40:00 -
[66]
Edited by: ectweak on 21/09/2010 17:41:00
Originally by: Lykouleon
CCP Veritas is my new hero
But he needs to learn how to use pie charts. I wants moar pie charts!!!
I can see CCP Veritas' next devblog having a chart similar to this:
http://www.evl.uic.edu/aej/491/pics/week2/piechart.jpg
But all joking aside, I'm a little concerned about the time and effort being put into removing this "lag", when there are such issues as "moveable PLEX" that need to be addressed. a 26 page threadnaught needs to be dealt with! /trolling
all right, enough of that jazz...
I'm happy to see that the "thin" client is getting it's money worth out of it, and all for the fight against lag. It's one enemy we ALL have |
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