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Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:14:00 - [1] On the forum I see a lot of claims for earning 2000 ISK/LP. That doesn't seem like something that can be sustained for the long term for hisec L4s for several reasons... (1) The LP store prices are way out of date. They haven't changed for years but the EVE markets have been in deflation for years now. The days when you could sell a CNR for 1.5b are long gone. (2) There is a lot more competition because there are a lot more highly skilled missioners around. All one needs to do is look at the markets and contracts for faction ships and modules in Jita. Those markets are no longer seller's markets; they are now buyer's markets and sellers have to be very competitive. Which segues to... (3) It is now a lot of work to find any LP store deal worth 1500 ISK/LP. There won't be one item in 50 in the store that will net > 1000 ISK/LP in Jita. Even with a spreadsheet you need to enter a lot of price data. The best deals will often involve shopping around for insignias, T1 versions, and/or materials for manufacturing. Then you have to find the right region to sell the stuff and get it there. Finally, you have to monitor the market closely because of competition and wait for the stuff to <hopefully> eventually sell, which can take weeks. While all that effort may get you top dollar for your LPs, it takes game time that could have been used for running missions to get more LPs. IOW, that time has an associated opportunity cost that needs to be subtracted from the LP store gross profit. (4) If you mission in hisec, then there are very few different LP stores available in practice because there are very few Q18 kill mission agents in 0.5 systems. So if you go to an agent from a better LP store, the agent will be lower quality or in a higher security system and that is a big hit to the LP awards you get. That restricts the number of deals available and it concentrates the professional mission runners in those stores, which makes competition tougher. (5) I suspect there is some creative accounting behind such claims. That is, insignias are regarded as free if the seller salvaged them, the seller's manufacturing and order costs have not been included, and no adjustment for the opportunity cost of the time devoted to hauling, managing market orders, etc. has been factored in. For example, as I look at the contracts in Jita for popular faction ships, I don't see a single one today that would earn even 1000 ISK/LP if all costs were properly accounted. So it seems to me that it is very tough for a pure missioner to make even 1000 ISK/LP routinely. That makes salvaging look pretty good for a lot of missions, especially when one considers that one can salvage most L4 missions in 1/3rd the time it takes to run them.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:20:00 - [2] ibt "just because you are too nooby to work it out doesn't mean it isn't true"-type comments. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.
Nimsir	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:41:00 - [3] Its not hard at all to get 1300-1500isk to LP even buying tags and materials at Jita prices, and selling in Jita. There are a couple of items I sell that I get over 1300isk per LP for, and this is from a Caldari LP store. There have been a few times where I'm getting around 2000isk per LP, but its not the norm, and I would doubt anyone who says they are getting that ratio in a high volume over a long amount of time, at least from a combat corporation LP store
Kana Oriken Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:45:00 - [4] There are definately LP stores in hisec that make 2000isk/lp, but it is a bit of a tradeoff. The good lp conversions generally come from the 5-run module BPCs, which come from the industrial corporations rather than the navy stores. You probably will not find a Q18 in a .5 that gives you 2500:1. So you need to balance lp rate with the agent type/quality/location. The ones with excellent lp rates tend to be either terrible quality or out in the middle of nowhere. Personally I make 2k+ per lp in hisec from a midrange agent, buying my tags from sell orders at the nearest trde hub(cant be bothered with the .01 isk game on buy orders). I probably average around 2250isk/lp and can get up to 3k/lp depending on what region I sell in, although people will jump on me about how that is trading rather than missioning.
Science Tramp	Posted - 2010.09.15 17:46:00 - [5] I'm averaging about 1750/lp, I could be getting more if I bothered to maintain buy orders. Run your numbers again, expand your search outside the usual Cal corps.
Asterian XVV Amarr Hightec Constructions	Posted - 2010.09.15 18:27:00 - [6] I made 1976isk/lp the other day, buying everything at jita sell prices and selling them on contracts. Caldari faction, no not navy. :P I like potatoes
Nocturnal miner	Posted - 2010.09.15 18:56:00 - [7] 2600isk/lp here, no tags needed for this item, best missions with this corp and agent only give 5700lp tho
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.15 18:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Science Tramp I'm averaging about 1750/lp, I could be getting more if I bothered to maintain buy orders. Run your numbers again, expand your search outside the usual Cal corps. At a rate of how many per hour? people are actually claiming to make 30000lp an hour and redeeming them all for 2000+. That's laughable. I don't disagree that there are items that draw more than 2kisk/lp. I don't disagree that there are people making tens of thousands of LP per hour. I don't disagree that you can do a lot of the lp conversion business remotely. However the claim that one can do all 3 of those things simultaneously it utter bull****. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me.
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.15 19:45:00 - [9] I don't mission like a maniac, i'm more often roaming lowsec looking for fights, but I do manage to exceed 2k isk/lp on a weekly basis for the LP I make. I mission about half in lowsec around my home and half on my empire alt who bounces between amarr and minmatar to keep standings acceptable. Most people make the mistake of basing LP conversion on something godawfully overfarmed like caldari navy and selling navy ships, which is a good way to dump a buttload of LP, but generally not a good way to get much isk for that LP. Bottom line is, you have to do a minimum of market searching to find out what to sell, then have a dozen alternatives bookmarked in case of massive market flooding or you decide to mission elsewhere. Get an alt with decent trading skills if you don't have one already (you can buy one for less than a CNR with fittings) and figure out the rest. I find contracting a week's worth of loot to my trader during the week and then setting things up for sale just prior to the weekend ensures everything is sold by the time I turn around and do it again. If you want more details, check threads from the past. Most of it isn't a secret and about the only thing you wont find is what to sell... which is where the market research comes in. Can't be asked to do that much? Well, don't cry when we make twice what you do with our LP.
Enduros Intoxicated Herbalists Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.09.15 19:56:00 - [10] I'm getting 1900-2100isk / LP consistently. That is once I deduct the price of items and ISK I needed to cash in, the true ISK/LP. And not running in some overcrowded 0.5 hub either. The best LP/hour usually isn't the best isk/h. And yes this does require market research. Movement tracking over time and other stuff.. Basically your point 3 with the spreadsheets. But I have time to do this when I'm actually at work. Work smart, not hard. I also know several people that do this alot better then me as they don't cash out under 2500 and still get all their stuff moved consistently. I actually know what items those are as I kinda tracked their activity a little, but I'm not gonna tell you or anyone else, work it out yourself... and as many of them run in low-sec they probably haul in at least twice the LP I get. Nobody making up to 3k per LP is gonna tell you how he does it and they usually have contract alts so you can't actually find out either. Get cracking on them spreadsheets. Pro-tip too... look for stuff that is used in pvp, those get blown up on a regular basis and people restock all the time. - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle...

Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.09.15 20:28:00 - [11] I guess I should have been clearer about the context. I don't deny that there are ways to clear 2000+ ISK/LP. But I don't see that happening in the normal context of L4 hisec mission running... Originally by: Kana Oriken There are definately LP stores in hisec that make 2000isk/lp, but it is a bit of a tradeoff. The good lp conversions generally come from the 5-run module BPCs, which come from the industrial corporations rather than the navy stores. You probably will not find a Q18 in a .5 that gives you 2500:1. So you need to balance lp rate with the agent type/quality/location. The ones with excellent lp rates tend to be either terrible quality or out in the middle of nowhere. Right, this seems to be the key. Yes, you can get big ISK/LP from some stores. But those stores aren't the ones you have access to if you are running L4 hisec missions to maximize ISK/hr. So you either have to run missions in losec, which really isn't an option unless you are under corp/alliance aegis, or you take a huge hit in the LPs that you are converting to cash. But AFAIK, the vast majority of L4 solo mission runners are people like me who are plexing (i.e., they aren't doing it because they get off on blowing up little red '+'s). So they are doing it in hisec and trying to get it done as quickly as possible, which means they want to meet their ISK goal as quickly as possible. Yes, there is a trade-off. But the agent quality and security factor in LP rewards is so huge that it seems to me it dwarfs the store effect. Going from Q18 to Q13 drops ~1500K LPs in rewards, which more than compensates for getting, say, 2500 ISK/LP vs. 1500 ISK/LP. And going from 0.5 to 0.6 security is an even bigger hit. So that's not a trade-off I'd be willing to make; I could make up that difference quicker and easier by just salvaging everything for a Q18/0.5 agent. (Though carpal tunnel for the click fest would be another trade-off.)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.15 20:34:00 - [12] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/09/2010 20:34:16 I haven't looked at the LP store values recently. I should just write a web app that calculates ISK/LP, just so I can permanently end this argument. A free market thrives on free information right? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.15 21:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/09/2010 20:34:16 I haven't looked at the LP store values recently. I should just write a web app that calculates ISK/LP, just so I can permanently end this argument. A free market thrives on free information right? -Liang If you were pro about it and included how much LP swag gets sold it would be a decent thing. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.15 21:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/09/2010 20:34:16 I haven't looked at the LP store values recently. I should just write a web app that calculates ISK/LP, just so I can permanently end this argument. A free market thrives on free information right? -Liang If you were pro about it and included how much LP swag gets sold it would be a decent thing. I don't know that I can actually get that information, since it's all done via contract. I'd have to rely heavily on people putting in contract prices for various items. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
SickSeven Simplistic Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.15 21:38:00 - [15] Edited by: SickSeven on 15/09/2010 21:41:24 ... You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue
Garbad theWeak	Posted - 2010.09.15 21:44:00 - [16] Edited by: Garbad theWeak on 15/09/2010 21:44:58 Originally by: SickSeven Edited by: SickSeven on 15/09/2010 21:41:24 ... Nice edit. This is what you said: "Wow, reading comprehension must be a new concept. The OP is not arguing 2k ISK per lp is impossible. He saying that you cannot do is fast enough to reach a sustained hi-sec income of 200mil ISK an hour, for any extended amount of time. And I agree with him." Ironically, no one other than you said anything about 200 mil isk an hour. In fact, the op said it was very tough to sustain 1k isk/lp. Work on that reading comp kk?
SickSeven Simplistic Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.15 22:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Garbad theWeak Edited by: Garbad theWeak on 15/09/2010 21:44:58 Originally by: SickSeven Edited by: SickSeven on 15/09/2010 21:41:24 ... Nice edit. This is what you said: "Wow, reading comprehension must be a new concept. The OP is not arguing 2k ISK per lp is impossible. He saying that you cannot do is fast enough to reach a sustained hi-sec income of 200mil ISK an hour, for any extended amount of time. And I agree with him." Ironically, no one other than you said anything about 200 mil isk an hour. In fact, the op said it was very tough to sustain 1k isk/lp. Work on that reading comp kk? yup. bonehead post. i read it as 200mil/isk hour the whole time. ya got me. good job. You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.09.15 23:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/09/2010 20:34:16 I haven't looked at the LP store values recently. I should just write a web app that calculates ISK/LP, just so I can permanently end this argument. A free market thrives on free information right? -Liang I've been meaning to do that I just really cba, I mean someone did 1/2 the work with the LP database.
Moose Burger	Posted - 2010.09.16 02:33:00 - [19] Well. No one's gonna spoon feed anyone with this kind of information. Only a select few that really matters definitely. As long as have multiple ships in different hubs, i can easily clean of 350K-500K worth of LP every week at >2.5K isk/LP.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.09.16 02:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Moose Burger Well. No one's gonna spoon feed anyone with this kind of information. Only a select few that really matters definitely. As long as have multiple ships in different hubs, i can easily clean of 350K-500K worth of LP every week at >2.5K isk/LP. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.

Triumdicta	Posted - 2010.09.16 04:55:00 - [21] well what about nomad implants those earn a lot more than 2k don't they?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.16 05:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Triumdicta well what about nomad implants those earn a lot more than 2k don't they? I think they earn ~1000 ISK/LP. The requirements on them are pretty nuts. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
tmasher	Posted - 2010.09.16 09:51:00 - [23] 8000 ISK/LP. Eat it.
CaptainFalcon07	Posted - 2010.09.16 10:21:00 - [24] People who get 2000+ Isk/LP should also look into the fact that agents give you less LP per mission in comparison to the agents that give you more LP at 1500 isk/LP. From my personal experience, in the end things balance each other out. You get higher value of LP but less of it or lower value of LP but more of it. Bounty of Rats and the Loot/Salvage they yield seem to be more of the factor in my personal opinion. There is one definite thing that I can say: Gallente Mission Running sucks, the LP is poor, Salvage and Loot is poor, and have some of the more tougher rats depending on how you mission.
ori thermos	Posted - 2010.09.16 11:55:00 - [25] Cannot see more than 900 ISK/LP from the current faction for which I am working. My costing took into account buying insignia's on the open market using buy orders and selling to the highest wanted to buy contract in the current market. I could get a little more by putting up my own sales contract but the spread between the top buy and cheapest sell was not many millions.
JASON W0RTHING Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division	Posted - 2010.09.16 14:01:00 - [26] I get 2200 isk/lp and pull missions from a 0.5 Q17 kill agent. It's not impossible just takes some investigation.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.16 17:15:00 - [27] Originally by: tmasher 8000 ISK/LP. Eat it. Really? I'll have to look at my spreadsheet. IIRC Nomads have a really high LP cost. LG Nomad Omega = 321,300 LP, 214,200,000 ISK + 200 mil or so in items 8000 ISK/LP would mean that it sells for 321,3008,000+214,200,000 = 2,784,600,000 I don't remember the Omega selling for that much. -Liang -- Eve Forum **** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Woopinbank	Posted - 2010.09.16 17:34:00 - [28] Some very important information is missing here, first being the involvement of faction war lp returns. THIS is whats killing the highsec market. First off, faction war missions give a HUGE lp return for an extreme little amount of work. Highsec missions are safer, and more time sensative and require little effort. I find the lp/isk ratio to be just fine considering anyone with even a remote sense of game knowledge can run high sec missions. Before anyone says "faction war has no part to do with this discussion" i should remind you that it very well does effect the lp market in a dominate way. Example: In faction war, i was able to accumulate 100k lp in a night if i did it for 6-8 hours (not even) straight. To get 100k lp in highsec missions would take days of straight grinds with no salvaging/loot grabbing. With that being said, the fw pilot is accumulating/spending his lp and flooding the market making your lp virtually worthless as time goes on. Moral of the story? Highsec worst isk, lowsec better isk, 0.0 best isk. Welcome to eve.
TehFailGuy	Posted - 2010.09.16 17:46:00 - [29] 1. No one uses CNR's to make money with their LP. 2. Look harder. There are modules that give good returns on LP. You are right in theory, though. There just isn't as much competition as you think. Many people just run missions in Motsu and are not driving the prices of other LP stores down. 3. Many LP items are sold via contract, not the market. It's far less work if you stay away from brute force (computing ISK/LP for every item) and instead use your knowledge of the game to narrow down to items that are likely to sell well. 4. True, but you don't need the perfect system to get good ISK for your LP. It's worth taking a 20% hit in LP generation rate if you're going to make more than twice as much off of that LP. Again, there's really not that many "professional" mission runners. 5. Faction ships are generally crap for LP returns. Those markets tend to be flooded with hammy-downs so their supply is too high.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.16 17:54:00 - [30] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/09/2010 17:54:53 Originally by: Woopinbank Highsec worst isk, lowsec better isk, 0.0 best isk. Welcome to eve. I'm no stranger to missioning in the more dangerous places of Eve, and I'll say that pretty much your whole post is wrong, but this is especially wrong. High sec missions (~80M ISK/hr pretty easy): - Crazy pimp your ships with pretty much total safety (even your alts) - Mission all day, all night... nobody can possibly interfere - Good amount of bounties - Best LP store selection Low sec missions (~80M ISK/hr if you're lucky): - Very mildly better rewards than high sec (< 10% better) - Large time sinks in fighting for your space, being scanned out, or being camped - Large :effort: sinks in spamming D-Scan to see if you're being scanned out. - Blind jump or use disposable alts - Enormous risk FW Missions (~100-150M ISK/hr if you're lucky) - Military LP store, + special items not available in high sec. - Enormous time investments to get reasonable ISK/hr returns, primarily because of massive amounts of travel time. - Large time sinks in pirates/militias camping your missions - Large :effort: sinks in spamming D-Scan to see if there's someone warping into your mission - Large coordination problem, in getting enough friends together to make it profitable - Near 100% of the ISK is generated through market PVP. 0.0 Missions (~80-100M ISK/hr if you're REALLY lucky): - Better LP rewards than high sec - Almost all missions are anti-faction, so no bounties - Large time sinks in fighting for your space, being scanned out, or being camped - Large :effort: sinks in spamming D-Scan to see if you're being scanned out. - Blind jump or use disposable alts - Lots of declined missions because they require massive travel - Lots of declined courier missions - Enormous logistics headaches - Enormous risk -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog



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