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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 15:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Commander Godsmack on 18/09/2010 15:51:46
Not that if the below are yes this would give me a sense of security if I were to do my own bond/IPO offering ect. but:
Do auditors get audited?
And if so is there some check/balance system body of some sort thats watching the auditors are doing and or from being buddy buddy with each other or they all being 1 person's alt?
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2010.09.18 15:56:00 -
[2]
Yes.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:08:00 -
[3]
No.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:17:00 -
[4]
Maybe.
***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing
*Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories
*Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:20:00 -
[5]
 ZOMGz
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:54:00 -
[6]
....who will watch the watchmen?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:08:00 -
[7]
Despite weather I'm being seen as a troll or not ; still waiting on a legitimate answer and possibly as well as other people who may read this, unless so far the replys are the official MD legitimate answer... then well - /me starts whistling
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Imperator Principes
Minmatar
SSGS Marketing and Analysis
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:18:00 -
[8]
I was under the impression that auditors were put through a serious gauntlet in the process of becoming an auditor and grilled over the smallest mistake or missed detail. If you are asking about current established auditors, then I don't really think so. Auditors are rare enough on MD as it is right now, and I'm guessing no one wants to give the ones we do have a hard time. That being said, even if we did audit auditors, who would audit the auditor's auditor?
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:23:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Commander Godsmack
Despite weather I'm being seen as a troll or not ; still waiting on a legitimate answer and possibly as well as other people who may read this, unless so far the replys are the official MD legitimate answer... then well - /me starts whistling
VV created a thread about this same topic a few months ago. It quickly devolved into a complete disaster.
I'll see if I can find it and link to it.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:31:00 -
[10]
Found it
http://eve-search.com/thread/1250795/page/1
It even has the best line I've seen in a while
Originally by: Bad Bobby
when it comes to MD my word is my bond and I will go through hell to keep it.
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Rykker Bow
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:37:00 -
[11]
lol..that's great Breaker. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:48:00 -
[12]
You want to open an Bond/IPO all you need to do is submit your limited API to the public.
Because that's about all anyone should really care about. Audits do not prevent you as the CEO from getting the funds and telling everyone to FFFFUUUU Off. About the only value an audit has is knowing if you have an alt which is a known thief.
People will argue, "Well it also confirms if they are able to do what they say." Which sounds fair, no one wants to invest is some idiot that doesn't know what they are doing, but in the end the investor still losses their investment. Either the CEO Runs off with the ISK or the CEO is a complete dumb ass the result is the same. Either way you're not getting any more investments from the public and have to start again. So that's a wash in terms of auditing.
The Auditor that audits a dumb ass and says his Audit is clean, still comes out clean, and they got paid to do so, and are not liable for any lost investment. You're name is still dirt because you failed or you stole. You still take the full brunt of peoples hate and you dropped your draws for some auditor and they saw you naked and everything about you.
The same effect for EVERYTHING ELSE can be achieved by simply posting you limited API in your original thread. If you have nothing to hide and you believe you can do what you say, then that's above and BEYOND what any Auditor can possibly hope to confirm.
The question is, if you're honest and believe that you can do what you claim you can, and wait to risk your reputation on your believe, do you want go forth into the public investment sector or not?
If you're dishonest and just looking for investments to steal, then posting you limited API is out of the question up front, unless you really don't care, or have no intention of scamming again. Either way the result is the same, never be able to get investments.
Auditor doesn't do anything you can't achieve yourself with a simple limited API POST. If you've got the balls and so confident in your ability, then post your full API, show everyone your naked butt and shaved giant steal balls. Either way, only 1 person can download asset data a day, and only 1 person can download wallet an hour. Just how many people will that information spread to.
So yeah, you can see I think auditors are a complete waste of time because in the end they don't prevent the CEO from simply running off with the ISK, or added an extra 0 at the end the price of a huge Trit order.
Amarr for Life |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 17:51:46
I would be happy to submit my answer for certification as an "official MD legitimate answer" with the Wise and Venerable MD Council (WVMDC) if you are willing to fund the incurring certification fee.
However, if you just want know whether my answer is serious or or not - it is true and I have no idea what beliefs/misinformation the first reply is based upon.
edit: SencneS is of course wrong - but as VV will probably write a waaaay more extensive reply than anything I could be bothered to write now anyways, I won't respond.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:57:00 -
[14]
There are plenty of audited IPOs out there that either ended up being scams by the very same people you claim to be Wise and Venerable.
Regardless of if you think my opinion is wrong or not, the evidence that an auditor doesn't stop SQUAT is littered thought-out the history of MD. Meanly stating a fact that historical data to backup the claim doesn't make the situation any different. Audits do not prevent theft or stupidity by the CEO.
Amarr for Life |
Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Imperator Principes
I was under the impression that auditors were put through a serious gauntlet in the process of becoming an auditor and grilled over the smallest mistake or missed detail. If you are asking about current established auditors, then I don't really think so. Auditors are rare enough on MD as it is right now, and I'm guessing no one wants to give the ones we do have a hard time. That being said, even if we did audit auditors, who would audit the auditor's auditor?
Well if once established the "new guy" has gone through the gauntlet it could have just been a PR stunt. And not bother and be nice to the good auditors you have now, makes me think of say X that becomes a pope in mid evil times then does wtf they want.
As to last line what i got from Breakers link was that Assuming the value of audits
- basically if an auditor dosnt get audited it dosnt help their street kred / If they do get audited it also dosnt help them
Catch-22 ?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 17:51:46
I would be happy to submit my answer for certification as an "official MD legitimate answer" with the Wise and Venerable MD Council (WVMDC) if you are willing to fund the incurring certification fee.
Idk if i want to sponsor u yet... Me thinks u dont have trolling lvl 5 completed yet 
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Imperator Principes
Minmatar
SSGS Marketing and Analysis
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
- basically if an auditor dosnt get audited it dosnt help their street kred / If they do get audited it also dosnt help them
Catch-22 ?
If they don't get audited initially in some form, they can't even be auditors. Jion Tichy is a good example of this. He was audited, grilled, and failed. Now he can't become an auditor. The benefits of being audited is that the auditor is allowed to audit in the first place and be accepted in that role. Though seeing that it seems to be a thankless job, most would probably laugh if you demanded that they be audited again.
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: SencneS
There are plenty of audited IPOs out there that either ended up being scams by the very same people you claim to be Wise and Venerable.
Regardless of if you think my opinion is wrong or not, the evidence that an auditor doesn't stop SQUAT is littered thought-out the history of MD. Meanly stating a fact that historical data to backup the claim doesn't make the situation any different. Audits do not prevent theft or stupidity by the CEO.
All audits do is enable the 100 billion plus scams while telling the newbie players to borrow isk privately. Leverage will be used by those who are intelligent, and if it is a hassle publicly then it will be done privately.
miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:40:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 18:44:53
(a) "plenty of audited IPOs out there that either ended up being scams by the very same people you claim to be Wise and Venerable"
links, please - the statistics I have seen so far indicate that scam rates on audited offerings are much lower than on unaudited ones.
(I think a few people had been looking for this link during the last days)
(b) my comment was mainly aimed on your "limited API key provides the same benefits as an audit"-line of argumentation - that's just a stupid (because obviously wrong) thing to claim.
(c) The effect of audits is to prevent certain kinds of scam offerings from appearing in the first place. This deterrence effect is of course hard to measure but as long as audits are enforced across the board it is (imo) pretty safe to assume it exists.
Just because an audit cannot deter or detect every attempt at scamming does not mean it does not deter some scammers from trying their luck on MD.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SencneS
You want to open an Bond/IPO all you need to do is submit your limited API to the public.
Does your limited API show that you received 100 billion ISK from Riethe/Bad Bobby/any other scammer?
NO! Well thats pretty damn interesting information to know don't you think?
Although even a full API key won't show that your scammer alt on another account bought expensive faction items, jetcanned them, and you scooped the can thus giving you the ISK.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:51:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 18:52:36
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: SencneS
You want to open an Bond/IPO all you need to do is submit your limited API to the public.
Does your limited API show that you received 100 billion ISK from Riethe/Bad Bobby/any other scammer?
Limited API does not even allow for an assessment of current net worth (and the size of offering to net worth ratio is imo pretty important information for potential investors).
(but trying to reason with SencneS just does not work, no use in trying)
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Limited API does not even allow for an assessment of current net worth (and the size of offering to net worth ratio is imo pretty important information for potential investors).
I'm well aware of that, that is why I asked the question 
Quote:
(but trying to reason with SencneS just does not work, no use in trying)
QFT
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:55:00 -
[23]
Then post your full key.. Arguing over limited vs full is a fools argument.
Commander Godsmack, post your full API and you don't need an auditor.
Amarr for Life |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Breaker77
Although even a full API key won't show that your scammer alt on another account bought expensive faction items, jetcanned them, and you scooped the can thus giving you the ISK.
And an auditor will pick this up.... LOL WT Hell dude.. you just described something that no one every would be able to pick up.. Thanks for making my point that auditors don't pick up everything, and also don't prevent anything.
Well done..
Amarr for Life |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SencneS
LOL WT Hell dude.. you just described something that no one every would be able to pick up.. Thanks for making my point that auditors don't pick up everything, and also don't prevent anything.
Well done..
ahem... that was exactly the point Breaker77 tried to make (minus the "don't prevent anything" part)
you know, there's more to the world than just black and white...
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 18:44:53
links, please - the statistics I have seen so far indicate that scam rates on audited offerings are much lower than on unaudited ones.
(I think a few people had been looking for this link during the last days)
Don't forget to see what that data does and doesn't show
It shows:
43% of offering are successful or still running without audit or collateral
with collateral thats about 75% of all offering's made so far
so audits here are a minority really
It dosnt show:
Scam rates compared to size of offers
Also to consider: bias of data ; Really? out of all the offerings not a few have turned out to been scams which where audited? I find that hard to believe.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
edit: still waiting for the information that backs up your "plenty of audited IPOs out there that either ended up being scams by the very same people you claim to be Wise and Venerable" claim
First one that jumps to my mind is "Destroy Goon" scam. but I'm off to play FPS for a while, so don't expect any more posts until later.
And yes, sure, unaudited IPO scam more often, that's a given, but it's not the reason they scam though. They don't scam because they where not audited, they scam because they had every intention of scamming in the first place.
The big problem is the focus is in the wrong location. You're trying to make IPOs more secure more honorable, by removing the responsibility of the investor and placing it in the hands of a few.
That's wrong. You need to focus on placing the responsibility of the investment in the hands of the investor. The investor needs to do the research, talk to the CEO, find out information BEFORE investing. People tent to invest blindly in a IPO because a "Wise and Venerable" person has done an audit. But in the end you have to recognize that the CEO can still scam, can still be a complete dumb ass. An audit doesn't prevent that, and a scammer with time on their hands and the willingness to see it though CAN get past even the most stringent audit by the most skeptical auditor.
It's very simple here, people make investments, needs to be more hands on personally, make personal judgments, make person choices without any influence from anyone with an ounce of respect. If every investor did this there would be still scams sure, there would still have issues with stupid CEOs. It's always going to exist, but they take the responsibility and say "Well I make a poor choice, I'll do better next time."
I also know what you're going to say about that, some people just don't know what to look for. THAT is the point, THAT is the reason I am so against audits. If you don't understand what to look for, then you shouldn't be investing in the first place, lean first, then invest. Don't just come here with a pock of ISK and not know a THING about what it is they are doing, and invest simply because some guy who is known as an Auditor says "His claims can be backed up by their history, and they have no known scammer/theft activities or interactions."
Sorry, that doesn't fly and it's a slap in the face to the community every one someone invests into something they have no idea what or how it works, and an auditor says "It's good."
Amarr for Life |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:29:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 19:35:19
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
edit: still waiting for the information that backs up your "plenty of audited IPOs out there that either ended up being scams by the very same people you claim to be Wise and Venerable" claim
First one that jumps to my mind is "Destroy Goon" scam. but I'm off to play FPS for a while, so don't expect any more posts until later.
not that discussion again....
It has been pointed out ad nauseam by now that this "audit" had little to nothing to do with the audits usually required from business managers (and Yih was "wise and venerable", right? ).
The point that an audit does not relieve you (as an investor) from due diligence has been made a few dozen times before, too.
And in practice the alternative is not "audit or full API key to all potential investors" (try getting a business manager to accept this) but "audit or the manager's word alone". And then you don't even have the "His claims can be backed up by their history, and they have no known scammer/theft activities or interactions." part of information.
For people who are not stupid having mediated access to the full API details is still better than having no access to this source of information at all; if there are a few idiots who chose to delegate the investment decision to the auditor that's their own problem but I don't see why the non-idiots should be punished for this.
(And in the time before audits became a requirement those idiots did probably invest in offerings because Ricidc did invest, too - don't believe they did their research then either)
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/09/2010 19:50:50
Quote:
VV created a thread about this same topic a few months ago. It quickly devolved into a complete disaster.
It was not a complete disater. I got two very appetible loans out of it and with no collateral to boot.
At the same time, today it'd be even worse.
Not only there are investees who don't want their main character being disclosed thru my API. There are now some that don't intend to ever post on MD and want alliance or private audits.
They won't want to be disclosed and they never "signed up with MD unwritten rules".
Quote:
The same effect for EVERYTHING ELSE can be achieved by simply posting you limited API in your original thread. If you have nothing to hide and you believe you can do what you say, then that's above and BEYOND what any Auditor can possibly hope to confirm
I suppose the whole number of EBANK directors have done it?
I also suppose you don't put a lot of importance in business performance study, since that's not available with a limited API key.
Quote:
So yeah, you can see I think auditors are a complete waste of time because in the end they don't prevent the CEO from simply running off with the ISK, or added an extra 0 at the end the price of a huge Trit order.
I noticed how these thoughts helped EBANK transparency and continued performance.
Quote:
edit: still waiting for the information that backs up your "plenty of audited IPOs out there that either ended up being scams by the very same people you claim to be Wise and Venerable" claim
I feel SencneS sold the character or something. He's talking as nonsensical as the other ban friendly troll in this thread.
Quote:
The big problem is the focus is in the wrong location. You're trying to make IPOs more secure more honorable, by removing the responsibility of the investor and placing it in the hands of a few.
They see this is done in RL and do it in EvE. Investors who are maybe FANTASTIC at trading or whatever made them rich could have no clue about the 1000 ways someone else could scam therefore they hire a third party with more experience to act on their behalf.
It's not rocket science, plus there are other benefits like having someone to refer for collateral, someone feeding them performance data in a digestable format and so on. It's not a given that an investor may understand the investee field and whether it's profitabile or not.
Quote:
not that discussion again....
It has been pointed out ad nauseam by now that this "audit" had little to nothing to do with the audits usually required from business managers (and Yih was "wise and venerable", right
SencneS ofc missed two points:
1) Two persons were trusted to hold an intellectual asset not to audit it.
2) Goons in the end actually exploded exactly by that very director.
Finally, and I find this GRAVE and irresponsible, is to push people posting their API keys and expose them to all sorts of harassment.
Imagine if someone who is a FANTASTIC 0.0 PvPer (I know many) but has no clue about technicalities gives a cursory look at "Then post your full key.. Arguing over limited vs full is a fools argument." and starts a bond and posts his full API key because he read . His alliance could be crippled.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:50:00 -
[30]
I think I like some stuff your saying SencneS, but now if I'll humbly point out how my OP was more of challenging the legitimacy of the trustworthiness of auditors which is while similar to the course this thread has started to go down of the point of audits at all maybe if can get some bridge between the two ideas so the OP doesn't get swept under the rug as I'm fairly sure its a much lesser challenged/mention - w/e idea
All the while both subjects aim for the same point of rationalizing why not to have audits the mainstream discussion seems to be they dont help prevent scams but what i dont see much (which I'm posting about) is any1 really scrutinizing the trust auditors get with the information they receive.
Few days ago some1 in a chat mentioned how auditors would make the best scam alts:
If I remember what they said some points made where the following:
make an auditing alt hell maybe even 2 or 3 - get those puppies established in the special committee of trust whatnot in MD.
Once you have that you can just audit yourself and/or falsify/str8 up bs resulting of audit and VOILA! there the dam breaks and comes in the isk rushing in torrents.
OH! and not to mention you could then do it over and over again as well lack of a better cliche the head of the snake is still remains un-severed
just thought as writing that not only goes about my original point but then even other legitimate audits cant pick up that deception from a determined/dedicated scammer.
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