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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
510
   |
Posted - 2012.07.31 15:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
At fanfest ccp said they thought that plexing should yield higher pay than mission running.
Currently it doesn't.
Hopefully CCP will implement changes that make plexing lead to even more pvp. This is good in itself. However, it will widen the divide between lp you can earn from plexing and the lp you can earn from missions.
There are several reasons that plexing - especially in a system where it brings about pvp - should earn more loyalty points than mission running.
1) There is more risk in a pvp activity. (again I anticipate ccp will continue to strive to make plexing a pvp activity)
2) Since you only earn lp from offensive plexing that means that you are likely gaining the most lp when your faction is losing. Accordingly it provides a balance. However if the winning side can make much more lp from missions then ccp is rewarding the people who just jump to the winning side after its ahead.
I have mission running alts in the opposing militia. Yet I still advocate this change because I think the large gains should go primarilly to those who are pvping/plexing and winning sov, not those who just put an alt in the winning side's camp.
How much of a reduction? I think that somewhat depends on what they do with plexing. But if they do any of the recomended changes to plexing then I think some lp nerf to missions would be in order.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
341
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 16:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Only L4 missions pay too much. Others pay out little compared to plexing LP.
1. Fix plex mechanics. Appropriate effort for appropriate sized plex.
2. Plex rewards should increase exponentially with plex size just like mission rewards.
3. Scale FW mission rewards if they are still out of line with plex rewards.
Done.
|
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 17:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
stop crying changes for FW.
EVERY CHANGE HAS ONLY MADE THING WORSE.
stop changing FW |
Wenron
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
34
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 17:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am seeing more gunless plex alts than missioners these days.
At least to run a lvl4 you have to earn the standings and have a couple weeks worth of skills. FWIW. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
151
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 17:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
YATCP
(Yet Another Terrible Cearin Post .... for the uninitiated.) |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid
Iron Oxide.
220
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I have mission running alts in the opposing militia. Yet I still advocate this change because the profitability of that has just dropped massively
While I agree and am in the exact same boat, lets not beat around the bush, we milked it but it has to go. I think a blanket nerf of FW LP stores is needed generally or people will flood here for the ISK and nothing else.
Making 10bn over a weekend playing solo casually is not what Eve needs, and is ruining FW. FW should not be about making money it should be about PVP. |
BolsterBomb
Frog Steamers
Kraken.
111
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Cearain wrote:I have mission running alts in the opposing militia. Yet I still advocate this change because the profitability of that has just dropped massively While I agree and am in the exact same boat, lets not beat around the bush, we milked it but it has to go. I think a blanket nerf of FW LP stores is needed generally or people will flood here for the ISK and nothing else. Making 10bn over a weekend playing solo casually is not what Eve needs, and is ruining FW. FW should not be about making money it should be about PVP.
It should be about both. FW is the only pocket of space that does not have the availability of income like the other zones. (if you take LP out)
LP is what makes FW doable.
High Sec has virtually any type of activity to support income except anomalies
FW has missions (now plexes)
0.0 has everything under the sun
If you take LP out nothing is appealing about low sec except the fights. How do you make income, oh yea you're going to have to leave low sec to do that. Without income there are no fights.
FW will fix itself.
Its very simple : Supply and demand
The more navy faction mods/ships the supply goes way up which means prices plummet (ravens are what 380m on sells right now?)
What you are speaking of is a market balance right now.
This is actually a priority within the cal militia and is being talked about on how to release items without crashing the market.
If LP to ISK value plummets people will leave and the cycle starts all over. The other thing CCP could do to fix this is make more ships viable for pvping in the LP store. Players would then cash in for their own ships rather then just dump. Say create more battleships and battlecruisers.....
Brig General
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
48
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
I wanna make isk and PVP a ton. So I play FW. I am going to be able to make about 2-5 bill a month from plexing. Also, I get to chose whether to be bored spinning a button, or fight. I chose to spin a button for a week, then PVP the other 3. I like it.
FW is fine. I was never able to make isk before (didn't want to train for 1 specific ship to do lvl 4 FW missions} and I can now. If I put my nose to the grindstone, I should be rewarded.
-Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
Generals4
1007
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 22:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Cearain wrote:I have mission running alts in the opposing militia. Yet I still advocate this change because the profitability of that has just dropped massively While I agree and am in the exact same boat, lets not beat around the bush, we milked it but it has to go. I think a blanket nerf of FW LP stores is needed generally or people will flood here for the ISK and nothing else. Making 10bn over a weekend playing solo casually is not what Eve needs, and is ruining FW. FW should not be about making money it should be about PVP.
No. It would be too easy to fix it now the tide is turning. It is time to let the amarr get a piece of the cake for a while. Once they had their piece it should be fixed.
-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
342
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 23:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:
If you take LP out nothing is appealing about low sec except the fights. How do you make income, oh yea you're going to have to leave low sec to do that. Without income there are no fights.
Anomalies, L4-L5 missions. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
342
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 23:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Generals4 wrote:No. It would be too easy to fix it now the tide is turning. It is time to let the amarr get a piece of the cake for a while. Once they had their piece it should be fixed.
I don't think they're going to do anything major until winter expansion. They need to see the full ramifications of this implementation of FW. It was designed for major disruption in Eve, and it certainly has done that.
FW = Watering hole for large beaten up 0.0 alliances.
FW = Massive nerf to High sec mission payouts
FW = Huge isk sink in Eve economy (farmers get rich while sinking isk into LP store)
FW = Massive numbers of small scale fights.
FW = Farmers dream activity.
FW = Destabilizing force on Eve Economy.
etc... |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers
Moar Tears
253
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 00:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Cearain wrote:I have mission running alts in the opposing militia. Yet I still advocate this change because the profitability of that has just dropped massively While I agree and am in the exact same boat, lets not beat around the bush, we milked it but it has to go. I think a blanket nerf of FW LP stores is needed generally or people will flood here for the ISK and nothing else. Making 10bn over a weekend playing solo casually is not what Eve needs, and is ruining FW. FW should not be about making money it should be about PVP. It should be about both. FW is the only pocket of space that does not have the availability of income like the other zones. (if you take LP out) LP is what makes FW doable. High Sec has virtually any type of activity to support income except anomalies FW has missions (now plexes) 0.0 has everything under the sun If you take LP out nothing is appealing about low sec except the fights. How do you make income, oh yea you're going to have to leave low sec to do that. Without income there are no fights. FW will fix itself. Its very simple : Supply and demand The more navy faction mods/ships the supply goes way up which means prices plummet (ravens are what 380m on sells right now?) What you are speaking of is a market balance right now. This is actually a priority within the cal militia and is being talked about on how to release items without crashing the market. If LP to ISK value plummets people will leave and the cycle starts all over. The other thing CCP could do to fix this is make more ships viable for pvping in the LP store. Players would then cash in for their own ships rather then just dump. Say create more battleships and battlecruisers.....
I agree it should be about both to some degree, but the current issue is that the payout/effort in FW is wayyyy out of line with the rest of EVE. Its not even comparable. Part of this is probably because I don't think they expected Tier 5 to be attainable at whim and expected more fighting in between, but you have to remember that on the Amarr/Min side compard to the Cal/Gal side which only sees tier 4, is that even with weekly tier 5 pushes, you are still making 5k ISK/LP worst case scenario in a crashed market.
Lowsec definitely needs a buff, FW definitely needs an incentive to join, but the current issue is that they've made things SO ridiculously lucrative that when things are dropped to a more reasonable level peoples expectations will already be so high, it will be hard to gauge the reaction to the warzone as a whole. I'm mostly worried about CCPs inability to hit balance on the first or second iteration and after we get our winter patch, I wonder how long it will be or if they ever try to fine tune their changes.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
265
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 01:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:
FW = Huge isk sink in Eve economy (farmers get rich while sinking isk into LP store)
etc...
Actually Tier 5 FW LP store is an ISK sink reduction of 75%
I suspect when things stabilize we'll see the LP store ISK sink for February be reduced from this years 6 trillion to 4 trillion ISK
Nostalgie ist die Faehigkeit, darueber zu trauern, dass es nicht mehr soist, wie es frueher nicht gewesen ist. -- Manfred Rommel-á |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
344
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 03:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Actually Tier 5 FW LP store is an ISK sink reduction of 75% per item
I suspect when things stabilize we'll see the LP store ISK sink for February be reduced from this years 6 trillion to 4 trillion ISK.
FW is not increasing demand ( except maybe soon for Nulli's Navy Apocolypse NEXUS chips which are pure LP no ISK sink ) of LP store items by making them cheaper or have +4 & +5 learning implants spiked in sales which I'm unaware of?
Per item yes. More LP is being earned and turned in overall (I believe, maybe not) and on a per LP basis the sink is still the same. So, bigger isk sink. |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
70
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 04:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Not sure the rate of LP returns for level 4 FW missions are really a problem. You can reasonably do something like 60-70k LP an hour. This is similar to what you can get from plexing. Theoretical numbers are higher, but in practice more is not sustainable.
It's pretty easy to pick up 3-4 missions within a reasonable (<10) number of jumps, for more you end up needing to tack on an extra 10+ minutes of travel per set. Two of the missions are time-consuming, and another is half LP, so per set you usually end up with less than 20-22k per mission. If you try to keep up doing sets of missions you either get stuck doing the non-optimal missions or running out of declines on your agents (and there aren't another 20-30 agents to choose from, as high sec agents have). Also.. spend a lot of time running missions in the same general area, and you start attracting interest, which can make missioning impossible.
The real problem is the 4x multipliers on LP store prices. They never should have gone past something like 1.5x cost at rank 1, and 0.75x cost at rank 5. The ISK/hr numbers come back to earth with those fixed.. and put losing militias in a far less crippled state, financially. |
Generals4
1011
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 09:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dynast wrote:Not sure the rate of LP returns for level 4 FW missions are really a problem. You can reasonably do something like 60-70k LP an hour. This is similar to what you can get from plexing. Theoretical numbers are higher, but in practice more is not sustainable.
It's pretty easy to pick up 3-4 missions within a reasonable (<10) number of jumps, for more you end up needing to tack on an extra 10+ minutes of travel per set. Two of the missions are time-consuming, and another is half LP, so per set you usually end up with less than 20-22k per mission. If you try to keep up doing sets of missions you either get stuck doing the non-optimal missions or running out of declines on your agents (and there aren't another 20-30 agents to choose from, as high sec agents have). Also.. spend a lot of time running missions in the same general area, and you start attracting interest, which can make missioning impossible.
The real problem is the 4x multipliers on LP store prices. They never should have gone past something like 1.5x cost at rank 1, and 0.75x cost at rank 5. The ISK/hr numbers come back to earth with those fixed.. and put losing militias in a far less crippled state, financially.
Before inferno when i used missions for LP i could get 80-120k LP per hour depending on the missions i was offered (and where they sent me). Off course special circumstances such as people hunting you down can lower that number but it is very possible.
-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
70
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 10:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Generals4 wrote:Before inferno when i used missions for LP i could get 80-120k LP per hour depending on the missions i was offered (and where they sent me). Off course special circumstances such as people hunting you down can lower that number but it is very possible.
I agree that it's possible, I've done it as well. The caveat is that it's not sustainable, because of the combination of low LP 'Cut the Net' missions, the need to either do lengthy 'Uproot' and 'Halt the Invasion' missions or lose the use of the agent(s) for four hours, and the need to do 20+ lowsec jumps (on average) per set of missions. Missions force you to move around in a way that deliberately exposes you to the hazards of lowsec. In contrast, when farming plexes you can choose to target low traffic systems and avoid pipes that get blocked by insta-lock t3 camps. |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 14:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Without income there are no fights.
Nonsense.
There was always pvp in low-sec. In big ships, even, far before FW.
However, even if FWers need a source of income, don't you think making billions in mere days using the cheapest ships in the game, T1 frigs, is a bit... broken? It's better income then 0.0 mission farming which is actually quite decent, but you do need standings (not such a problem), a decent ship which costs something, and an alt & corp is more or less necessary.
|
BolsterBomb
Frog Steamers
Kraken.
111
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 15:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Without income there are no fights.
Nonsense. There was always pvp in low-sec. In big ships, even, far before FW. However, even if FWers need a source of income, don't you think making billions in mere days using the cheapest ships in the game, T1 frigs, is a bit... broken? It's better income then 0.0 mission farming which is actually quite decent, but you do need standings (not such a problem), a decent ship which costs something, and an alt & corp is more or less necessary.
Do you even know what we fly?
People fly t1 frigs because they are broke dude. You think us FW guys want to stay in BC and below. Most people fly these because of isk issues not because they dont want to.
And for the record, you do not billions a day. You must wait until the proper time for the LP dump and then you have to fight everyone crashing the market at the same time. FW LP is a sit and wait game where 00 missions and all the other activities pay immediately.
Im still sitting on a ton of faction ships that I will not sell because the market is crap right now.
FW pilots can go a whole month without cashing in. Its like living paycheck to paycheck. Right when you get paid its awesome but wait awhile as your ships go boom, then you go aww sheit
Brig General
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
78
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 15:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Without income there are no fights.
Nonsense. There was always pvp in low-sec. In big ships, even, far before FW.
Wait, so before FW ships were free?
I don't even.
I need to stop flying these expensive frigates and get in one some of that free BC action.
Rabble Rabble!! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
348
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 15:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Do you even know what we fly?
People fly t1 frigs because they are broke dude. You think us FW guys want to stay in BC and below. Most people fly these because of isk issues not because they dont want to.
And for the record, you do not billions a day. You must wait until the proper time for the LP dump and then you have to fight everyone crashing the market at the same time. FW LP is a sit and wait game where 00 missions and all the other activities pay immediately.
Im still sitting on a ton of faction ships that I will not sell because the market is crap right now.
I agree with Bolsterbomb. I fly T1 frigates because I don't have an endless supply of FACTION SHIPS to fly. Instead, I try to sell my endless supply of FACTION SHIPS on the market. Unfortunately, they can't sell because I want a better return on my investment than I can get from the current market. Therefore I fly T1 frigs. Afterall, I'm broke. 
|
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
87
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 15:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
FW is purrrfect as is.
Is sexy time? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
511
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 16:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Garr Earthbender wrote:I wanna make isk and PVP a ton. So I play FW. I am going to be able to make about 2-5 bill a month from plexing. Also, I get to chose whether to be bored spinning a button, or fight. I chose to spin a button for a week, then PVP the other 3. I like it.
FW is fine. I was never able to make isk before (didn't want to train for 1 specific ship to do lvl 4 FW missions} and I can now. If I put my nose to the grindstone, I should be rewarded.
I agree with you. This proposal is not one in which I hope to nerf fw income. Not at all. I think once ccp addresses the gunless 2 day alts running plexes the overall income from faction war will be fine.
This proposal is really about the balance between income from plexes and income from missions. I gave reasons why I think the system should favor plexing as a means to getting lp in my original post. It is for those reasons I propose that ccp nerf missions when they correct the plexing problems.
This proposal assumes ccp will correct the gunless 2 day alts. It assumes that ccp will implement changes to make plexing a pvp activity. If that happens, the balance will be too much in favor of missions.
Right now I think I can make more isk running missions than I can plexing. (but yeah its close and the alts are cheaper and less skilled. So I am not saying its a big deal now.) However, If they make plexing the pvp activity it should be, there will be a huge disparity between mission running and plexing.
Right now I run plexes with an eye toward pvp. I have made about 1 mill lp doing that since inferno came out. In that time I lost a few billion in isk due to pvp. I can't run major plexes because the rats do too much damage and ruin any pvp opportunities I may have. So I run mostly minor plexes and an occasional medium plex.
I know that if I wanted to to run missions I could make that much in a day with minimal losses. Indeed I made that much minmatar lp in a day with minimal losses. For the reasons I gave in my op I think plexing should be the preferred means of isk making. And that is why I propose a nerf to missions. (and yeah mainly level 4 missions) They can buff plexing payouts instead I guess, it doesn't really matter.
And I don't care when they do this. ItGÇÖs not to benefit me. I have characters that can run missions in all the militias.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
BolsterBomb
Frog Steamers
Kraken.
111
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 16:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Do you even know what we fly?
People fly t1 frigs because they are broke dude. You think us FW guys want to stay in BC and below. Most people fly these because of isk issues not because they dont want to.
And for the record, you do not billions a day. You must wait until the proper time for the LP dump and then you have to fight everyone crashing the market at the same time. FW LP is a sit and wait game where 00 missions and all the other activities pay immediately.
Im still sitting on a ton of faction ships that I will not sell because the market is crap right now.
I agree with Bolsterbomb. I fly T1 frigates because I don't have an endless supply of FACTION SHIPS to fly. Instead, I try to sell my endless supply of FACTION SHIPS on the market. Unfortunately, they can't sell because I want a better return on my investment than I can get from the current market. Therefore I fly T1 frigs. Afterall, I'm broke.
I was using this as an example troll, let me change it.
I have a supply of implants that I cant sell..............zzzzzzz
Brig General
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
175
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 17:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:
People fly t1 frigs because they are broke dude. You think us FW guys want to stay in BC and below.
I fly t1 frigs (<3 Merlins) and destroyers for a lot of reasons, NONE of them is because I am broke.
a) Frigs can get into any plex size so you don't see a destroyer in a minor and then be sad because you can't go fight him
b) Frigs can travel without much fear of being caught at gate camps, unlike something larger
c) More people are willing to engage me in a Merlin than say, a drake. (or an SFI, I have a stack of 15 unfitted sitting in my hangar and a few more fitted).
d) I can fight in plexes where logi and falcon's cannot enter (I hate logi more than falcons, they are the bane of solo/small gang pvper).
It is NOT because I am broke. At this point I think I've got around 12B in my personal wallet and ~ 100B in assets.
And this is why I love FW: Pre-inferno when the Caldari had dried up I flew nothing but a drake so I could go gcc under gateguns (since pretty much all the targets were neutral). Post inferno I was able to fly frigs and destroyers again. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
348
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 17:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:X Gallentius wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Do you even know what we fly?
People fly t1 frigs because they are broke dude. You think us FW guys want to stay in BC and below. Most people fly these because of isk issues not because they dont want to.
And for the record, you do not billions a day. You must wait until the proper time for the LP dump and then you have to fight everyone crashing the market at the same time. FW LP is a sit and wait game where 00 missions and all the other activities pay immediately.
Im still sitting on a ton of faction ships that I will not sell because the market is crap right now.
I agree with Bolsterbomb. I fly T1 frigates because I don't have an endless supply of FACTION SHIPS to fly. Instead, I try to sell my endless supply of FACTION SHIPS on the market. Unfortunately, they can't sell because I want a better return on my investment than I can get from the current market. Therefore I fly T1 frigs. Afterall, I'm broke. I was using this as an example troll, let me change it. I have a supply of implants that I cant sell..............zzzzzzz
Bait taken.  |
Generals4
1013
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 18:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:X Gallentius wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Do you even know what we fly?
People fly t1 frigs because they are broke dude. You think us FW guys want to stay in BC and below. Most people fly these because of isk issues not because they dont want to.
And for the record, you do not billions a day. You must wait until the proper time for the LP dump and then you have to fight everyone crashing the market at the same time. FW LP is a sit and wait game where 00 missions and all the other activities pay immediately.
Im still sitting on a ton of faction ships that I will not sell because the market is crap right now.
I agree with Bolsterbomb. I fly T1 frigates because I don't have an endless supply of FACTION SHIPS to fly. Instead, I try to sell my endless supply of FACTION SHIPS on the market. Unfortunately, they can't sell because I want a better return on my investment than I can get from the current market. Therefore I fly T1 frigs. Afterall, I'm broke. I was using this as an example troll, let me change it. I have a supply of implants that I cant sell..............zzzzzzz
0/10
-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
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