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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 06:28:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Montevius Williams Is this really worth complaining about?
Yes. Spawning items into the game because of out-of-game monetary transactions will debilitate EVE, trash its good will, and alienate its core audience. I wish CCP luck finding a new mainstream audience to replace us. I doubt they'll get far though because the competition for mainstream MMOs is much greater than it is for niche, open-world MMOs.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.07 06:57:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2010 07:01:09 If all this is purely about a vanity shop for Incarna, then, you know, whatever. Incarna cost them a fortune to develop, and it's a way to pay for that expansion without charging for the expansion. Looked at in that perspective, the thing wouldn't be wholly unreasonable - In fact I had been wondering about the economics of Incarna for a while, and so had a lot of others, judging by the non-ironic "will Incarna be a free expansion?" threads
In fact a lot of people would probably be happy with that structure and thinking about it, I'd be OK with it. Incarna is basically a whole new game (whether its a good game is a seperate issue, so let's not get in to that) that we're getting for free. We're going to play it for free. It'll be free for us to play. So, microtransactions: fair enough. Kind of hard to argue against em on that basis.
But the instant in-game items for spaceships-EVE appear, then we're not only on a slippery slope but strapping on our skis and yelling HEY WATCH THIS.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 07:09:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2010 07:01:09 If all this is purely about a vanity shop for Incarna, then, you know, whatever. Incarna cost them a fortune to develop, and it's a way to pay for that expansion without charging for the expansion. Looked at in that perspective, the thing wouldn't be wholly unreasonable - In fact I had been wondering about the economics of Incarna for a while, and so had a lot of others, judging by the non-ironic "will Incarna be a free expansion?" threads
In fact a lot of people would probably be happy with that structure and thinking about it, I'd be OK with it. Incarna is basically a whole new game (whether its a good game is a seperate issue, so let's not get in to that) that we're getting for free. We're going to play it for free. It'll be free for us to play. So, microtransactions: fair enough. Kind of hard to argue against em on that basis.
But the instant in-game items for spaceships-EVE appear, then we're not only on a slippery slope but strapping on our skis and yelling HEY WATCH THIS.
Do you think CCP has the self-control to not add gameplay affecting items to the microtransaction shop? I don't. Their first microtransaction item (remaps) is going to affect gameplay (albeit to a minor extent).
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.07 07:25:00 -
[94]
CCP: you've let yourselves down.
Eve used to be a game that rewarded intelligence and forward planning. You're turning it into a game that rewards a large credit limit.
Shame on you.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.07 07:39:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Sky Orcagna Edited by: Sky Orcagna on 06/10/2010 19:45:37 LoTRO just went through the EXACT same thing. Turbine promised that microtransactions would only be for vanity items and not for anything that actually affected gameplay. Well that lie lasted about two seconds. The first thing they did was add all sorts of "uber" potions and special items which instantly morphed the game into the very worst sort of RMT grind. And just like all the other MMOs which have migrated to the microtransaction model, overnight there was an massive influx of snotty teens, gold farmers, and scammers into the game. Turbine lied about microtransactions just like the other MMO publishers have lied.
I am thoroughly disgusted by CCP on this. If they raised the price of EVE I would gladly pay it. But I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that once microtransactions are introduced in EVE, they will eventually start selling gameplay-changing items. Bank on it. The temptation to do so is simply overwhelming once they get a taste of that extra income.
Every major MMO publisher has told the same lie and I see no reason whatsoever to give CCP the benefit of the doubt here. Just another cheap money grab. Just watch the explosion of ISK-farming, RMT-fueled scamers that will be drawn to this like flies to ****e.
Also keep in mind LOTRO is a free to play microtransaction game now, while CCP still asks a sub on top of the microtransactions in EVE.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Cupio Mortem
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Posted - 2010.10.07 07:41:00 -
[96]
Whiners, please contract your stuff and GTFO, make some bandwidth room for those who will gladly take your places now.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.10.07 07:43:00 -
[97]
Is the sky falling again?
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
RedClaws
Amarr Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:06:00 -
[98]
Common guys I don't like this change either but to be fair : We've had ISK for $ already for ages.
Heck, if I wanted too I could just buy 10 titans and start a new alliance somewhere, it'll only cost like 60000$.
And yes people have done this! Hello Russians o/
IMHO Eve went down the drain back then already... all the exploits didn't help either
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Syphon Lodian
Gallente Fabled Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:09:00 -
[99]
Lots of bawwing, not enough substance.
What exactly are we all whining about again? I read something about micro-transaction attribute remaps? Oh, my, ****ing, god. The horror. You mean I don't get a "free" remap ONCE A YEAR ANYMORE?!?!
They were never useful but maybe once in a pilot's career. Basically the point when industrials decide to branch into combat, or vice versa. That was about it.
Besides, PLEX has always been one of the biggest micro-transaction examples in MMO history. Nearly everyone uses it to some extent, and you don't see these sorts of transactions even in the major micro-trans games. Funny. Everyone in EVE thinks highly of themselves, like they deserve an elitist principles status. When you're all really just a bunch of dramatic children.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:34:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Nullity
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2010 07:01:09 If all this is purely about a vanity shop for Incarna, then, you know, whatever. Incarna cost them a fortune to develop, and it's a way to pay for that expansion without charging for the expansion. Looked at in that perspective, the thing wouldn't be wholly unreasonable - In fact I had been wondering about the economics of Incarna for a while, and so had a lot of others, judging by the non-ironic "will Incarna be a free expansion?" threads
In fact a lot of people would probably be happy with that structure and thinking about it, I'd be OK with it. Incarna is basically a whole new game (whether its a good game is a seperate issue, so let's not get in to that) that we're getting for free. We're going to play it for free. It'll be free for us to play. So, microtransactions: fair enough. Kind of hard to argue against em on that basis.
But the instant in-game items for spaceships-EVE appear, then we're not only on a slippery slope but strapping on our skis and yelling HEY WATCH THIS.
Do you think CCP has the self-control to not add gameplay affecting items to the microtransaction shop? I don't. Their first microtransaction item (remaps) is going to affect gameplay (albeit to a minor extent).
Honestly? No, not all that much, no. It's not a certainty that they will and I'm hoping that we can persaude them not to do this, but I really cant discount the possibility. That's why I phrased my post as a conditional. All I'm saying is that the I'M QUITTNG FOR EVAR part of the process should be withheld until they do.
Vanity Incarna Fluff -> mild grumbling plus constant vigilance
Spaceships Gameplay Stuff -> cancel & go. Wont even bother raging tbh.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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anidaG
Gallente The Ankou Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:37:00 -
[101]
Edited by: anidaG on 07/10/2010 08:43:50 Basically, this plex for remap thing is in a way buying sp for plex. Person remaps fully towards perception and trains carrier 5, then remaps fully for memory and trains fighters 5, then remaps fully to intel and trains ew 5. Without this remaping (and I presume no 1 year timeout when plex for remap is introduced) the total time learning those skills would be more than with => you're paying real money to increase sp/hour => paying for extra sp in given amount of time => buying sp.
I hoped this day never comes. Selling plex for isk, which exists atm - you can earn isk without buying plex, and usd/isk value is not that small, so it doesn't change the game as a whole much. But buying sp (as mentioned above) - you won't be able to do the same thing without plex (usd), and that's a major f*ck up for a paid game I think.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:42:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Syphon Lodian Lots of bawwing, not enough substance.
What exactly are we all whining about again? I read something about micro-transaction attribute remaps? Oh, my, ****ing, god. The horror. You mean I don't get a "free" remap ONCE A YEAR ANYMORE?!?!
They were never useful but maybe once in a pilot's career. Basically the point when industrials decide to branch into combat, or vice versa. That was about it.
Besides, PLEX has always been one of the biggest micro-transaction examples in MMO history. Nearly everyone uses it to some extent, and you don't see these sorts of transactions even in the major micro-trans games. Funny. Everyone in EVE thinks highly of themselves, like they deserve an elitist principles status. When you're all really just a bunch of dramatic children.
An MMO company selling gametime is a qualitatively different micro-transaction than the kind we're worrying about here, wouldn't you say?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.07 08:53:00 -
[103]
Originally by: mechtech Edited by: mechtech on 06/10/2010 22:53:46
Originally by: Umega What a dense bunch of whine-bangers.
This just in! Purchasing goods in a game through the use of money has existed since the implementation of PLEX. Player uses rl money to get PLEX, sells PLEX, gets isk, uses isk for ships/items. Player used rl money to aquire in game items. People should really quit talking like this is something new.
Doing re-maps in this manner.. allows both the finacially established rl people AND/or ingame players to aquire the re-maps. The option to gain through the use of Isk alone is avialable. Take the "I'm poor" socialist ideal crap somewhere else.. because life isn't fair and balanced nor should it be for people that can't succeed and achieve when others have.
I'm going to have to post a response every time I see this... To be fair it's a hard to grasp concept though, so let me lay it out:
Yes, it is true, micro-transactions already exist.
I have to correct you there, microtransactions do exist, but not in the form of plex.
The curernt plex system is not a microtransaction system, it is RMT between players, facilitated by CCP.
The only microtransaction currently in EVE is the ability to swap portraits for 10Ç, and you could cal the character transfer service also a microtransaction, however that is metagame.
But selling plexes for isk is not a microtransaction.
Just to clear that up.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Khors
Amtek Inc
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:08:00 -
[104]
yes, ofc this time it really is the end of eve.
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anidaG
Gallente The Ankou Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:21:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Khors yes, ofc this time it really is the end of eve.
Well, ofc not the end. I'll still play the game. A dissapointment though .
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Hauling Hal
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:22:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Hauling Hal on 07/10/2010 09:23:31 Oooh, another 'this will kill Eve' thread. I've not seen many of these before.........
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:37:00 -
[107]
Originally by: anidaG Edited by: anidaG on 07/10/2010 08:43:50 Basically, this plex for remap thing is in a way buying sp for plex. Person remaps fully towards perception and trains carrier 5, then remaps fully for memory and trains fighters 5, then remaps fully to intel and trains ew 5. Without this remaping (and I presume no 1 year timeout when plex for remap is introduced) the total time learning those skills would be more than with => you're paying real money to increase sp/hour => paying for extra sp in given amount of time => buying sp.
I hoped this day never comes. Selling plex for isk, which exists atm - you can earn isk without buying plex, and usd/isk value is not that small, so it doesn't change the game as a whole much. But buying sp (as mentioned above) - you won't be able to do the same thing without plex (usd), and that's a major f*ck up for a paid game I think.
Thats about as good an argument as me GTCing +5 implants with plex for isk and gaining more SP/hour. ---
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Syphon Lodian
Gallente Fabled Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:39:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Syphon Lodian on 07/10/2010 09:45:42
Originally by: Malcanis
An MMO company selling gametime is a qualitatively different micro-transaction than the kind we're worrying about here, wouldn't you say?
No, I wouldn't say.
ISK is the only driving force behind EVE, aside from SPs. You can literally 'buy' billions upon billions of ISK by purchasing an in-game item with RL cash. Effectively spawning an item not previously seen in game, with a micro-transaction. It affects the entire economy. To say that buying ISK with RL cash is minor, in comparison to saying that buying an ANNUAL ability with the same transaction system is major.. well, that's just flawed logic.
Well, I suppose it is different, considering attribute remaps are benign in comparison. But since they're using PLEX, it's just using the same system.
ISK is everything. You can do anything with ISK, and you can buy ISK with RL cash. -------------------------------------------------- |
Dan Grobag
Caldari French Empire Squad
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:41:00 -
[109]
As an old vet already at the top I won't care with microtransactions introduced into the gameplay but IMHO all that nerdy side of EVE will die. People just won't bother to drama against each other anymore if they see they don't fight on an equal field.
A large portion of the game is imcompatible with that system.
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 09:46:00 -
[110]
Originally by: CyberGh0st Edited by: CyberGh0st on 07/10/2010 09:00:09
Originally by: mechtech Edited by: mechtech on 06/10/2010 22:53:46
Originally by: Umega What a dense bunch of whine-bangers.
This just in! Purchasing goods in a game through the use of money has existed since the implementation of PLEX. Player uses rl money to get PLEX, sells PLEX, gets isk, uses isk for ships/items. Player used rl money to aquire in game items. People should really quit talking like this is something new.
Doing re-maps in this manner.. allows both the finacially established rl people AND/or ingame players to aquire the re-maps. The option to gain through the use of Isk alone is avialable. Take the "I'm poor" socialist ideal crap somewhere else.. because life isn't fair and balanced nor should it be for people that can't succeed and achieve when others have.
I'm going to have to post a response every time I see this... To be fair it's a hard to grasp concept though, so let me lay it out:
Yes, it is true, micro-transactions already exist.
I have to correct you there, microtransactions do exist, but not in the form of plex.
The curernt plex system is not a microtransaction system, it is RMT between players, facilitated by CCP.
The only microtransaction currently in EVE is the ability to swap portraits for 10Ç, and you could cal the character transfer service also a microtransaction, however that is metagame.
But selling plexes for isk is not a microtransaction.
I'll quote myself
Quote:
The current plex system is RMT ( real money trade ) between players, the introduction of plex for remaps is microtransactions ( even CCP calls it what it is in the interview ).
In mmo terms, microtransactions means buying ingame currency, items or services directly from the company that runs the mmo, but not in a complete package, but in smaller chunks. And while microtransactions are also a form of RMT, not all RMT are a form of microtransactions.
Microtransaction based mmo's are the opposite of subscription based mmo's. With microtransactions you buy parts of the mmo, while with subscriptions you pay 1 monthly fee and you get everything there is to it.
The original plex system was and is tollerated, because RMT between players is unstoppable, you can fight it hard, but you can't completely stop it, so the original plex system is a pragmatic solution to give players the option to buy isk legally ( and thus alot more safely ), but only from other players. This way CCP gains from it by having players that otherwise might stop subscribing and who might even create extra accounts payed with isk. Meanwhile they try to fight illegal ISK trading, hackers, bots, macroes, etc. ( okay not enough, but still ).
I hope I have clarified the difference now so we can move along and discuss the fundamental issue again : Do we want microtransactions in EVE?
It's nice to see that somebody gets the difference. Thank you, CyberGh0st.
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:13:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Forum Guy on 07/10/2010 10:20:15
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Let's be real here, a remap for 1/2 of a PLEX is an insanely bad deal for the player. All you are getting is a slight boost to your sp rate and you can match the same sp rate using normal mechanics (ie you get free remaps already). Also consider that most people, especially newer players will train skills all over the place and remaps will not be very beneficial to them. A sp gain rate does not give you any advantage compared with players who have accumulated skillpoints for over 7 years or players who purchase a character.
Therefore I do not see PLEX for remap as a traditional evil micro-transaction model. A slight boost to sp gain doesn't mean much in EVE. If you get Engineering V a few days before another player it is no big deal and does not mean you will smoke all other players who did not pay for extra remaps. Giving a special booster that gave out +10% speed or +10% damage or access to special missions, ok now we are talking about typical evil micro-transactions. This combined with the fact that I suspect PLEX for remaps will be rarely used I don't think it is cause to omg rage quit over.
Disagree totally, for players that see 17.5 euros as small change, they would be able to keep two training attributes at their maximum at all times so they would suffer from no training penalty what-so-ever. Whereas someone that just uses the yearly re-map has to make a compromise with the way they distribute their attribute points based on what they think they will be training for the next year.
Yes, I do know the world is not fair, but that does not mean we should welcome such crap into MMOs. A lot of people play MMOs to take a break from RL.
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:18:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Forum Guy
Yes, I do know the world is not fair, but that does not mean we should welcome such crap into MMOs. A lot of people play MMOs to take a break from RL.
The new age of video games is targeted at people who inexplicably want to turn escapism into branches of their real life. I don't understand it.
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Cailais
Amarr Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:26:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Nullity
Originally by: Forum Guy
Yes, I do know the world is not fair, but that does not mean we should welcome such crap into MMOs. A lot of people play MMOs to take a break from RL.
The new age of video games is targeted at people who inexplicably want to turn escapism into branches of their real life. I don't understand it.
You dont understand why people want to realise an escape from their current lives? Really?
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:28:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Nullity
Originally by: Forum Guy
Yes, I do know the world is not fair, but that does not mean we should welcome such crap into MMOs. A lot of people play MMOs to take a break from RL.
The new age of video games is targeted at people who inexplicably want to turn escapism into branches of their real life. I don't understand it.
You dont understand why people want to realise an escape from their current lives? Really?
C.
I don't get the drive that current consumers have to mix their real life status up with their fictional video game status. I'd prefer them separate.
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:30:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 07/10/2010 10:32:38
Originally by: Azrakadar No micro transactions was one of the main things I loved about Eve.
Are you high? What do you think selling a plex for isk is? CCP have been leading the way in microtransactions.
What if they introduced remaps for <x> isk, where <x> is pegged to the current price of plex?
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:33:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Azrakadar No micro transactions was one of the main things I loved about Eve.
Are you high? What do you think selling a plex for isk is? CCP have been leading the way in microtransactions.
That was real money trading (RMT). A microtransaction generates something in the game solely because real life money exchanged hands from the consumer to the producer of the video game. RMT produces nothing in the game. When you buy a PLEX, nothing is added to the game except the stand-in for GTCs PLEX item (which is has no other uses except for adding time to an account). When you take your PLEX and trade it for ISK, nothing is truly generated. If you trade your PLEX for a remap, essentially you just paid CCP to generate one remap credit for you.
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Forum Guy
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:33:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Azrakadar No micro transactions was one of the main things I loved about Eve.
Are you high? What do you think selling a plex for isk is? CCP have been leading the way in microtransactions.
I'm starting to think that selling plex for isk was the foot in the door so to speak. Testing the way to opening micro-transactions.
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Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:37:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Azrakadar No micro transactions was one of the main things I loved about Eve.
Are you high? What do you think selling a plex for isk is? CCP have been leading the way in microtransactions.
I'm starting to think that selling plex for isk was the foot in the door so to speak. Testing the way to opening micro-transactions.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was. However, as I outlined above, PLEXes for pre-generated ISK were never really micro-transactions.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.10.07 10:58:00 -
[119]
This is a DANGEROUS precedent. You know asa they start they aren't going to stop... now they say it wont give an advantage to some over others... wait until start doing micro-transactions with modules/ships/implants/clones...
This must be stopped here and NOW before its too late _________________________ CSM Candidate for 2011 (soon a pretty photoshop sig) Aelius 2011 Candidacy Guide Lines |
Stitcher
Caldari legion of qui
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Posted - 2010.10.07 11:09:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Stitcher on 07/10/2010 11:11:53
Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP: you've let yourselves down.
Eve used to be a game that rewarded intelligence and forward planning. You're turning it into a game that rewards a large credit limit.
Shame on you.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is a classic example of the overreaction that has typified this thread.
CCP is a business. They are a Corporation. Their function is to make money. To do this, they create a product/service that people are willing to pay money for. the product in this case being EVE Online, and the services being a subscription and the option of buying PLEX.
The above should not be taken to mean that they don't love their own product and labour over it out of genuine enthusiasm. I think that anybody with realistic, reasonable standards would say that they've proven time and again that they really do care about EVE. anyone who doesn't frankly is expecting superhuman performance.
Are you people SERIOUSLY going to sit there and go all armchair communist claiming that a company doesn't have a right to introduce new services to their range that people will be willing to pay for. From where I'm sitting, the proposition looks entirely reasonable. attribute remapping is something you can do anyway, so nobody's getting an unfair advantage there aside from suddenly being freed of the need to do it sensibly and with care. and if the only other function is purely cosmetic, would somebody care to explain to me exactly how this is supposed to be unfair?
f**king purists man, I swear to god. You either like the game, or you don't like the game. if you GENUINELY like the game, then cosmetic s**t like this won't change your opinion one iota. If a move like this makes you froth at the mouth, then may I respectfully suggest that you don't like the game, you just like some pretentious jackass interpretation of the game's philosophy instead.
This is a non-issue, and I think it's a completely sensible move that CCP have every right to make. I can see no good reasons to object to it, and YES I have read the thread, YES I understannd where you're all coming from, and I think you're all bat-dung insane. -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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