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Macros: They could possiblely pass the Turing test!

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Marshiro	Posted - 2010.10.12 23:02:00 - [1] I've been thinking about what is required for PvE and the set of behaviors required for success, and I've come to the conclusion that if interface problems can be solved, there is simply no good way you can identify macros from legit players. Lets see some common methods of detection and why they fail: 1. Long hours: If there is serious threat of banning, the macros can just scale back to "normal" isk levels of say 1 billion of ratting per month and still make a profit. The macroer can replace long hours on a single account with multiple accounts, and if IP is properly masked, there is no easy way to figure it out. 2. Bubbles: "If bubble on overview (one tab with only bubbles), align to safe, max out acceleration and spam warp" 3. Other behavior: Shoot stuff and warp to safe? Isn't that what all PvE folks do? Not including the "legit" and far more lazy afk domis or the timer assisted hulk pilots. The macro can even leave in a "random humanlike stupid behavior", "semi-random input times like humans" and "random afk behavior" if such becomes tags of detection. 4. Convo, occasional human required tasks: I guess you can always require players to convo, but the logical solution is botnet with a human care taker that run dozens accounts at once. Unless they are hit at the same time (unlikely with proper randomization measures) one person can handle such tasks. Simply said, I don't think there is anything that acts as a finger print for humans that can not be emulated by a sufficiently sophisticated AI, which isn't all that high given how brain dead eve PvE is. Eve PvE needs to be designed after captcha principles for it to be semi-macro secure, IMO.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.10.12 23:05:00 - [2] I believe that the Turing test specifically refers to communication abilities. It would be trivial to make an AI that would, for example, solve simple mathematical problems in a way indistinguishable from humans. So unless you can actually talk to the macroers, I think they are still far off. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Marshiro	Posted - 2010.10.12 23:13:00 - [3] The problem relevant to eve is: Is it possible to build an AI whose behavior in the game Eve-online is indistinguishable to that of a human. I think the answer is yes, given the low demands place on human intelligence that is required to play the game in all its normal aspects.
Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.10.12 23:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Marshiro Simply said, I don't think there is anything that acts as a finger print for humans that can not be emulated by a sufficiently sophisticated AI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqBJkCkeHdE Quote: Eve PvE needs to be designed after captcha principles for it to be semi-macro secure, IMO.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.10.12 23:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Marshiro The problem relevant to eve is: Is it possible to build an AI whose behavior in the game Eve-online is indistinguishable to that of a human. I think the answer is yes, given the low demands place on human intelligence that is required to play the game in all its normal aspects. Indistinguishable from that of a human mining while watching TV? Most certainly, and for people with any experience in AI design it wouldn't even be a challenge. Indistinguishable from a PvPer, a FC, or even an alliance leader? I want to see anyone try. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.10.12 23:29:00 - [6] Edited by: Akita T on 12/10/2010 23:33:11 Originally by: Marshiro The problem relevant to eve is: Is it possible to build an AI whose behavior in the game Eve-online is indistinguishable to that of a human. Yes, of course it's POSSIBLE. But that ONLY works as long as no GM* attempts to communicate with it. As soon as such an attempt is made, it would have to pass an ACTUAL Turing test. And that's where all will fail. *NOTE: I said "GM" because you're kind of, sort of obligated to talk to them if they try to talk to you. Any other humans you can just ignore or block with no big deal of a consequence. P.S. That's pretty much true for just about any game. How good the "bot" is only depends on how good the programmer is, how familiar the programmer is with the corresponding environment, and how much effort the programmer is willing to sink into it. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Marshiro	Posted - 2010.10.13 00:50:00 - [7] Quote: Indistinguishable from a PvPer, a FC, or even an alliance leader? I want to see anyone try. PvP? They can't really do worst than the standard failfit n00b, and is more than capable of doing the standard gate/bubble camp. We all now how people run multibox PvP ops. With some networking code, I am sure it is more than possible to run a RR BC/HAC blob with all piloting out sourced to one FC. Add a few scout and tackles and you have a fleet. FC and alliance leader have the problem of need to act like self important jackasses, which AI could not quite do yet. In any case, we can't be everyone that is not a leader. Quote: But that ONLY works as long as no GM* attempts to communicate with it. As soon as such an attempt is made, it would have to pass an ACTUAL Turing test. And that's where all will fail. P.S. That's pretty much true for just about any game. If that is the method, than the AI can just realize the CCP presence and forward the interaction to a human. The advantage is you can run hundreds of boxes for one human. The logs, they show nothing. In games that is "difficult" to macro, outside of the game interface being some captcha, the other thing is the difficulty in emulating human behavior in normal operation, which can be logged and use as evidence for a ban. While it is not too hard to program, say, a Starcraft AI, it is almost impossible to make it act like a human and have it be effective.
Abaroth Charmar	Posted - 2010.10.13 00:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Marshiro The problem relevant to eve is: Is it possible to build an AI whose behavior in the game Eve-online is indistinguishable to that of a human. I think the answer is yes, given the low demands place on human intelligence that is required to post on the forum. FTFY
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.10.13 00:58:00 - [9] The abilities of macros are fast reaching mythical proportions here. I haven't even looked at the other thread about them in hours, because it was getting too ridiculous. At some point it's just easier to play the damned game than it is to develop macros that can do what some people think they can. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.10.13 01:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Marshiro Eve PvE needs to be designed after captcha principles for it to be semi-macro secure, IMO. I will become homicidal if such were to occur. I **ing hate captcha's. I like me Senior Recruiter**
Eris Davion	Posted - 2010.10.13 04:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Marshiro FC and alliance leader have the problem of need to act like self important jackasses, which AI could not quite do yet. Don't be so sure. There's a pretty good troll-bot that used to run around usenet, could hit at least that part.
Paknac Queltel Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.10.13 07:39:00 - [12] Macro / Antimacro is an arms race that, honestly, cannot be won. The war will have to be fought on the RMT front. Originally by: Akita T But that ONLY works as long as no GM* attempts to communicate with it. As soon as such an attempt is made, it would have to pass an ACTUAL Turing test. And that's where all will fail. Hmm... Cleverbot, plus a translator to some obscure language? I mean, it just has to respond in a human-like fashion. We've got plenty of players who don't speak a single decent word of English. Originally by: Professor Tarantula At some point it's just easier to play the damned game than it is to develop macros that can do what some people think they can. I don't know. I mean, I can imagine the thrill of not just excelling at something, but making something that excells for you. Programmers are an odd bunch. - Paknac Queltel
Daedalus II	Posted - 2010.10.13 11:42:00 - [13] The best way to stop macros is imo to build the game in a way it's non-trivial to play it. A good example is the new scanning system. While in no way impossible to automate, it's A LOT harder now than it was before, and at the same time it made scanning something interesting from having been just another brain dead "mining system". So you both made it harder to automate and made it more fun to play, win-win! Other areas that is open for improvements like this is mining (by making it more interactive) and PvE (by adding better AI and more diverse mission objectives). A simple requirement to position the ship somewhere in space to accomplish an objective would make it extremely hard to automate.
Paknac Queltel Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.10.13 11:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Daedalus II The best way to stop macros is imo to build the game in a way it's non-trivial to play it. A good example is the new scanning system. While in no way impossible to automate, it's A LOT harder now than it was before, and at the same time it made scanning something interesting from having been just another brain dead "mining system". So you both made it harder to automate and made it more fun to play, win-win! Other areas that is open for improvements like this is mining (by making it more interactive) and PvE (by adding better AI and more diverse mission objectives). A simple requirement to position the ship somewhere in space to accomplish an objective would make it extremely hard to automate. It would definitely help if it was funner to do some things. That would kill a good bit of the casual macro's. Macro's will never completely die though. Especially since "hard to automate" equates to "fun challenge" for some. - Paknac Queltel
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.13 11:57:00 - [15] I work in IT. I sometimes doubt that the majority of the users who call me for support could pass the Turing test.
Manipulator General o.0	Posted - 2010.10.13 12:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Akita T But that ONLY works as long as no GM* attempts to communicate with it. As soon as such an attempt is made, it would have to pass an ACTUAL Turing test. And that's where all will fail. *NOTE: I said "GM" because you're kind of, sort of obligated to talk to them if they try to talk to you. Any other humans you can just ignore or block with no big deal of a consequence. About 3 weeks ago a GM convoed my newest alt, and started asking me if I liked Eve, and if I'd done this or that. I didn't have the heart to tell him I had played continuously for 6 years, so played answered with random noob comments. Besides, he probably didn't have anything else better to do with his time.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2010.10.13 13:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Jack Gilligan I work in IT. I sometimes doubt that the majority of the users who call me for support could pass the Turing test. did you try switching them off then back on again? . -hi sec lolwarrior-
Titus Phook Amarr	Posted - 2010.10.13 21:44:00 - [18] Edited by: Titus Phook on 13/10/2010 21:46:12 The contacting of new accounts has been going on a while, seems to be some sort of customer service drive by CCP. Both of my alt accounts have been contacted within a few days of being created, on one I did the same just spouted noob comments, on the other I just stated that it was an alt account and the GM was like "cool" and went and bugged someone else. --------------------------------------------- Proudly posting with my Alt since 2009
Herrring Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2010.10.13 21:53:00 - [19] So this is how SkyNet is born..... from a eve ratting bot..
Loschy The Synergy	Posted - 2010.10.13 22:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Jack Gilligan I work in IT. I sometimes doubt that the majority of the users who call me for support could pass the Turing test. This.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.10.13 23:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Marshiro 1. Long hours: If there is serious threat of banning, the macros can just scale back to "normal" isk levels of say 1 billion of ratting per month and still make a profit. The macroer can replace long hours on a single account with multiple accounts, and if IP is properly masked, there is no easy way to figure it out. If CCP were to limit players to being logged in for only "human sensible" hours per account in order to encourage folks to live healthy lifestyles, the macros would be playing by the same restrictions as everyone else. Sure they could switch to multiple accounts, but that's more income for CCP which means better funding for the maintenance of the game, and more demand for PLEX which means prices go up which means people selling PLEX get better $-to-ISK conversion, which means less demand for external RMT. Everyone wins, except the people who need to play EVE for more than 8 hours a day to justify their existence. Oh, and we nerf the AFK-cloaker scaring you into submission for 23x7 in the process. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]

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