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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.10.16 14:11:00 -
[1]
The kitsune, hyena, sentinel, and keres are ships that are almost never seen on tranquility. Let's explore why.
Kitsune: 58m signature radius. Don't look at it! It explodes if you do! 53m lock range. Why is that an issue? It's T1 counterpart, the griffin, can lock w/o a sensor booster at 75km. If the Kitsune had that lock range naturally it would be a different ship. One setup would allow it to lock out to 120km as well as get the optimals on it's jammers out to 111km.
Hyena: This used to be a popular ship - before the nano nerf almost three years ago. It starts with a 53m signature radius. At lvl 5 EAS you can get this to a 43m radius! The interceptors used to have a similar bonus that was removed b/c it was found to be ineffective with the changes being made for the speed nerf! There's alot of ideas floating around for this ship. 40km webs. More mids. More EHP. Change the TP bonus to a web strength bonus. A starting point needs to be more survivability though. Smaller sig radius and a MWD sig reduction penalty - similar to inties - would go along way.
Sentinel: I see these all the time in FFA6 on SISSI. They are actually not that bad. More EHP and a sig radius smaller then 53m would increase survivability.
Keres: This ship just needs some love. 55m signature radius. Much slower then interceptors. Can warp jam out to 36km. Tackle interceptors can get 30km. That 6km difference isn't enough to justify the ship. It's other e-war is probably the most controversial out there after target painters and one might argue that gallente ewar needs to be addressed before the keres can even be talked about.
Just some food for thought on four of the most unloved ships in Eve.
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Occams Legwax
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Posted - 2010.10.16 15:15:00 -
[2]
From page 9 of the QEN Q1-2010. "The least flown ship group overall was the electronic attack ship, with only 255 active."
The most recent QEN doesn't say anything about least flown ships but I'll bet EAF's were bottom again. __________ Yani Dumyat has been temporarily abducted by aliens. This alt post is in fact a cleverly disguised distress call, please send help! |
Alexandra Stormwing
Blood Money Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.16 16:05:00 -
[3]
I regularly fly the kitsune and sentinel. Kitsune is fantastic with locking range rigs; perfect support for fast frigate gangs. The only time I have lost one was in a large fights at a bubble camp, as a suicidal effort to save some gangmates.
The sentinel is my favorite solo frigate hull. It's a great ship against many targets. Most frigates, all the destroyers, some cruisers, many AFs. It's a miniature Curse and I am surprised that more people don't fly them.
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Scarlet Knightz
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Posted - 2010.10.16 16:25:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Alexandra Stormwing The sentinel is my favorite solo frigate hull. It's a great ship against many targets. Most frigates, all the destroyers, some cruisers, many AFs. It's a miniature Curse and I am surprised that more people don't fly them.
This.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
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Posted - 2010.10.16 17:14:00 -
[5]
I used to fly the Kitsune years ago when I didnt have many SP, back then it was pretty good before the Falcon got the same ECM strength bonus as the Falcon and it was fast enough to keep up with the nano HAC gangs and saved many gang members in their shiny polycarbed Vagas. I had a lot of fun in that ship, of course I have long since been able to fly better ships but still have some fond memories of it.
To boost EAFs generally they need much better bonuses maybe much closer to the bonuses the Recon ships have and like the OP suggests smaller sig radius and maybe a little bit more CPU and PG.
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Jim Tudeski
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Posted - 2010.10.16 17:26:00 -
[6]
[Keres, LolRegionalGate] Damage Control II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Warp Scrambler II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Targeting System Subcontroller I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Warrior II
2k Scan res and 43.2k range on WD II.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.16 18:35:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran I used to fly the Kitsune years ago when I didnt have many SP, back then it was pretty good before the Falcon got the same ECM strength bonus as the Falcon and it was fast enough to keep up with the nano HAC gangs and saved many gang members in their shiny polycarbed Vagas. I had a lot of fun in that ship, of course I have long since been able to fly better ships but still have some fond memories of it.
To boost EAFs generally they need much better bonuses maybe much closer to the bonuses the Recon ships have and like the OP suggests smaller sig radius and maybe a little bit more CPU and PG.
in general, the EAF's need more staying power, better agilit, etc.. in short, they need more survivability, and more cap.
specifically, the keres needs stronger damp bonus (the warpscram bonus doesn't need to change, really), while the hyena could do with.. hmm.. web str bonus?
EAF's are supposed to be superior frigate Ewar platforms, but half of them aren't really that superior. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.10.16 21:47:00 -
[8]
Electronic attack ships in general are broken. They were designed around a nano-age that doesn't exist anymore. There's so much in the game that competes for attentions - hybrids, AF, rockets, ect... the issue needs some attention. I remember multiple people mentioning the hyena as details of the speed nerf came out. It clearly should have moved in the same direction as the interceptors. "We'll deal with that at a later date" was the response. Well... that was almost three years ago now. It would be nice for it to get dealt with.
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Cousin Tom
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Posted - 2010.10.16 21:55:00 -
[9]
I don't disagree EAFs are sub-optimal for the most part, but in terms of old failures that have the most wide-range of consequences EAFs are a vary small drop into the fail bucket compared to rockets, hybrids, and other issues.
PS. I love the sentinel.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.16 22:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Occams Legwax From page 9 of the QEN Q1-2010. "The least flown ship group overall was the electronic attack ship, with only 255 active."
The most recent QEN doesn't say anything about least flown ships but I'll bet EAF's were bottom again.
There are more supercarriers in space than EAFs...
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Headerman
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Posted - 2010.10.16 23:26:00 -
[11]
Well if i could fly one, i would...
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Alexandra Stormwing
Blood Money Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.16 23:40:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Alexandra Stormwing on 16/10/2010 23:41:53
Originally by: Grimpak in general, the EAF's need more staying power, better agilit, etc.. in short, they need more survivability, and more cap.
specifically, the keres needs stronger damp bonus (the warpscram bonus doesn't need to change, really), while the hyena could do with.. hmm.. web str bonus?
EAF's are supposed to be superior frigate Ewar platforms, but half of them aren't really that superior.
I think a small boost to the strength of damps on the Keres would be nice; perhaps an extra 2.5% per level. I'm really talking out of my tail here though, because I've never flown one.
As far as the Hyena goes, I would rather give it extra range over extra strength. Having two 90% webs at 20km seems like overkill, but having two normal strength webs at 24km or 30km might be enough to make the ship desirable again.
I'm not sure if the Sentinel really needs much at all. It's already a great ship, but if I were being offered a wish, one of the following would be great: Enough of a neut range boost to hit 20km, or some extra agility, or some extra hull / armor.
I've flown the Kitsune enough that I'm very comfortable with it, and again, I'm not sure that it really needs any changes. Yes it is fragile, but so are most ECM ships - and they should be, considering the power they bring to the field. The compromise you need to make between using your rigs for jam strength or extra targeting range is a good one. No ship should every have everything, especially at this price point.
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Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.10.17 01:13:00 -
[13]
I, inexplicably, have EAF trained to level 4 and have never even bought let alone flown one.
I blame alcohol.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.17 01:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Alexandra Stormwing I've flown the Kitsune enough that I'm very comfortable with it, and again, I'm not sure that it really needs any changes. Yes it is fragile, but so are most ECM ships - and they should be, considering the power they bring to the field. The compromise you need to make between using your rigs for jam strength or extra targeting range is a good one. No ship should every have everything, especially at this price point.
The Kitsune is an okay ship but it really should have the targetting range extended.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.10.17 03:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: OT Smithers
Originally by: Alexandra Stormwing I've flown the Kitsune enough that I'm very comfortable with it, and again, I'm not sure that it really needs any changes. Yes it is fragile, but so are most ECM ships - and they should be, considering the power they bring to the field. The compromise you need to make between using your rigs for jam strength or extra targeting range is a good one. No ship should every have everything, especially at this price point.
The Kitsune is an okay ship but it really should have the targetting range extended.
This. The key point is that the kitsune is based on the griffin hull which has a lock range almost 50% farther. That's very bizarre for a T2 ship to be inferior like that.
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Myrkala
Minmatar Interstellar Empire Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.10.17 17:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Myrkala on 17/10/2010 17:06:32 Vigil signature radius with mwd running: 264m Hyena signature radius with mwd running: 260m
Wait what?
The Vigil's signature radius is smaller than a Hyena's which has a bonus for signature radius? Seems like an empty bonus to me.
Giving it the inty mwd-sig bonus or a web strength bonus would make it more attractive for pilots.
The sentinel is the best one by far, kitsune is also good although a blackbird is very close to it in usefulness esp. if you consider cost.
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Originally by: Plumpy McPudding Minmatar? More like Winmatar.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar CareBears on Fire The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.17 17:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Occams Legwax From page 9 of the QEN Q1-2010. "The least flown ship group overall was the electronic attack ship, with only 255 active."
The most recent QEN doesn't say anything about least flown ships but I'll bet EAF's were bottom again.
There are more supercarriers in space than EAFs...
-Liang
And that is pretty much what's wrong with Eve. --Vel
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Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.10.17 17:56:00 -
[18]
Theres nothing wrong with the Kitsune, but people will typically fly a Griffin before they buy a Kitsune. The Keres isn't very useful since other ships can come close to its performance and damps need some serious work. The Hyena isn't very useful since in a gang theres usually something else to web (rapier), and thats all that ship does well since TPs are almost useless. The Sentinel is a good ship and there isn't really anything wrong with it, like the Kitsune.
The problem with EAS is that that extremely niche. Most small gangs have no real need for them, and larger gangs have recons instead. In a fleet I can see them being useful to supplement the recons, but then there are better choices (dps or more recons).
They're also terrible to solo in. The Kitsune does less dps than any sane person would try to use and can't tank at all. The Keres doesn't do enough dps, but is CAPABLE of soloing certain ships. The Hyena, much like the Kitsune, struggles to do any reasonable dps while having some resemblance to a buffer. The Sentinel, theres nothing wrong with it. It's a good ship, but just about anything that it CAN engage runs away from it.
With the said the biggest problem (aside from the above) is that these ships CANNOT engage multiple targets. DPS is too low, buffer is too low, speed is too low, and ewar is not strong enough to take care of multiple threats. Kitsune is immune from that because ECM is still bull****, but it still cant kill its own kind.
There, that's my say. - MY LATEST VIDEO - DO IT ALONE COWARD |
vorneus
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Posted - 2010.10.17 18:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Alexandra Stormwing The sentinel is my favorite solo frigate hull. It's a great ship against many targets. Most frigates, all the destroyers, some cruisers, many AFs. It's a miniature Curse and I am surprised that more people don't fly them.
All the destroyers? A thrasher should tear it to pieces. I wouldn't fancy its chances against anything with a small nos either.
It's probably the 2nd best EAF, but the ship class itself I have to agree is probably the worst in-game. The statistics about in-use EAFs is testament to that.
-Ed
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Cousin Tom
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Posted - 2010.10.17 19:02:00 -
[20]
Thashers killing frigate hulls... in MY EVE?
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Bernard Schuyler
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Posted - 2010.10.17 21:07:00 -
[21]
I have flown a Keres a few times. There really isn't much of a place for it in its intended role. EAF work best as Fast Lockers for camps. With an abundance of mid slots, and the point bonus on the Keres, you can get extremely sharp sensor resolution and lock gate traffic very fast.
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Alexandra Stormwing
Blood Money Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.18 04:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: vorneus All the destroyers? A thrasher should tear it to pieces. I wouldn't fancy its chances against anything with a small nos either.
I have engaged several thrashers with my Sentinel and not once have I had any issue with them. I'm not talking out of my ass here - this is from experience, and I'll readily admit when I am talking out of my ass (see below regarding the 3 nos setup). When I engaged my first Thrasher I was expecting to die - the Trasher IS an excellent ship - but I haven't had any problems. The bonused tracking disruptor is fantastic.
As for ships with a small nos, they would have to get close and keep their speed mod on in the first place to catch me and get close enough to make use of the nos. I fly a kiting, triple neut setup - the tank is speed, a DC, and the tracking disruptor. If they are close enough to use the nos, I'm dead anyway because the EHP is maybe 2k.
That's one of the reasons I don't carry a flight of ECM drones. If I am ever in a situation where I need them I've already lost the ship. I care spare hobbies and warriors instead because a smart opponent will concentrate their firepower on the Sentinel's drones.
There is also a fit I have been messing with on Sisi (which admittedly doesn't mean much since Sisi is fantasy land) with 3 nos, 2 small reps, AB, scram, web, and TD. Works wonders against cruisers and up, just need to get close. The reps are plenty to keep light drone damage at bay, the TD prevents turrets from hitting you, and the 3 nos keeps everything up and running nicely even under neut pressure. I don't think I would ever fly it on Tranq though. Other ships do the tackling job much better, but it IS rather fun.
But, it might be interesting in those deadspace complexes... I don't know, I'm moderately drunk at the moment.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.10.18 05:32:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 18/10/2010 05:34:16 The sentinel can carry 12 light drones. That's quite a few for a tracking disrupted, nueted frigate of any sort to chew through. I really don't begrudge the sentinel it's combat effectiveness. I feel it needs to be more survivable in a small fleet action. 1v1 it's nice. It's a mini-curse. But add a few ships to the equation and that 53m signature radius will get it killed.
My suggestions? All EAS ships lose 15m off of their signature radii. Hyena - 38m Sentinel - 38m Kitsune - 43m Keres - 40m
The Hyena loses it's TP bonus for a 5% bonus to web strength - this would give it a 75% web strength total at lvl 5. It would also get a 9% mwd sig penalty reduction per level. This would come close to replicating the situation before the nano nerf. The web strength would give it a uniqueness vs. a huginn or rapier. It would stand out.
The kitsune would get a 75km lock range before modules. It would have a range bonus over the rook/ falcon that would again - make it stand out.
The sentinel with a smaller sig radius would be fine.
Ther keres. I just don't know what to do for this poor ship.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.10.18 06:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
Ther keres. I just don't know what to do for this poor ship.
Purely talking out of my ass here.. I can't and never flown a Keres before. This is just a desire to see more Boba fett frigs flying around..
When I look at Keres stats, I scratch my head. What they should give a whirl on sisi and see if op or not is this..
Push the base-line speed up a notch, 350ish. Push up it's cap, 415ish.
Give it 5% cap thingy for mwd per racial frig lvl, remove the damp cap % bonus.
Last but not least, dronebay 45 m3 with a 15 mbit. I'm tempted to say more, but too much would make this thing eat cruisers if fit/used right with these changes. I don't quite understand CCPs thinking with the paperclip looking sent getting such a massive bay for a frig.. and then the Gallente Keres gets.. 10/5.
They all could do with lower sig radius.. and upto 300hp spread out in their shield/armor/structure, not anymore than that.. they should be fragile, just not this fragile.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Ran Khanon
Amarr Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
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Posted - 2010.10.18 07:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Alexandra Stormwing If they are close enough to use the nos, I'm dead anyway because the EHP is maybe 2k. ~
That's one of the reasons I don't carry a flight of ECM drones. If I am ever in a situation where I need them I've already lost the ship.
But ...
Quote: "Viziam ships are quite possibly the most durable ships money can buy. Their armor is second to none and that, combined with superior shields, makes them hard nuts to crack."
Lol :)
Recruiting! |
Panch0Villa
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.19 03:06:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Panch0Villa on 19/10/2010 03:11:43
Originally by: Everyone here pretty much Stuff about how EAF's could be fixed
Pretty much.
I got EAS V to have loads of fun in my hyena, then promptly shelved it when speed nerf made it a liability.
I still use Kitsunes occasionally, but if I stay alive I'm guessing it has to do mostly with the fact that ppl see it and go "wtf is a kitsune?"
Keres has marginally better pt range than tackle inties, with crap sig and survivability. Just use an inty instead. Sentinel needs more survivability. Might as well use an AF. You'll live longer and kill more stuff anyways. Hyena can't survive long enough to hold targets until backup arrives. Just use an inty.
It is important to note that since that half of the EAF's (Keres/Hyena) are operating in tackle roles, they are going to have some overlap with interceptor roles, so they're going to need at least some shared bonuses to be effective to any real degree. Wrt to the other half, sentinel is a combat ship, it needs to be survivable to perform its role. This is going to overlap with the AF class obv. This is a prickly problem... How to make EAF's competent while not making the other ship classes (AF/Inty) obsolete. C/D?
CCP, thank you for giving us EAF's. Now can we fix them so they work?
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.22 17:01:00 -
[27]
Just a short note for EAF pilots: Suitonia started a thread in the Assembly Hall regarding a review of the EAFs and it would be great if some of you could iterate your points there as well. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.10.22 17:13:00 -
[28]
Give the Keres a 20% RSD strength bonus per level and drop the jamming bonus. Would make it an excellent counter to ECM ships jamming stuff out at range.
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Baneken
Gallente School of the Unseen
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Posted - 2010.10.22 17:27:00 -
[29]
Keres as it is work just fine with it's current bonuses, it's problem lies with it's speed which is only 2500m/s (with mwd) meaning it can't keep up with stuff it's meant to hold in place as a gate tackler it's par none though fast locking, long tackle range and cheaper then AF's and ceptors.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Captain Sweatervest
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Posted - 2010.10.22 18:12:00 -
[30]
My kistune setup can operate rainbow jamming from about 70-80km and doesn't really feel all that gimp tbh. The only reason I don't fly it much is my corp rarely does frigate roaming anymore. More often than not i'm either in a blackbird or rook , but definitely the kissy has a special place in my heart.
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