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Ruareve
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Posted - 2010.10.17 12:46:00 -
[1]
So I'm in Jita and I see people auctioning contracts for T2 rigs. The price on the contract is something like 700mil for 3 rigs. I check the market and there are no rigs for sale but history shows the last ones priced around 80-90 mil or so. Interestingly enough there's a buy order for 3 rigs at 400mil with a min of 3.
So is this a scam of some sort where people are supposed to see the buy order and scoop up the contract and then try to sell and find out they don't make the profit they expect?
So far I've seen two of these flash past but I'll be honest enough to admit I'm horrible with numbers and new enough with buy orders that I'm not sure what the profit on such a scam would be or how old it is.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.10.17 13:05:00 -
[2]
Once you try to fill the buy order you will find that it was created using marging trading and is not sufficiently covered.
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Ruareve
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Posted - 2010.10.17 13:09:00 -
[3]
Thank you for explaining that. I assumed it wasn't legit when I checked the buy orders on other T2 rigs and saw none of them had the odd buy orders.
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Dezolf
Minmatar
DAX Action Stance
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Posted - 2010.10.17 13:53:00 -
[4]
In completely unrelated news, anyone wanna buy 3 t2 rigs? ;)
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trance atlas
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Posted - 2010.10.18 01:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: trance atlas on 18/10/2010 01:55:37
Remembered what margin
trading was
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.10.18 01:57:00 -
[6]
Margin trading allows you to put up a buy order for 400 million worth of goods, but the eve "broker" withdraws say 200 million from your account. When someone goes to fill your buy order, the broker tries to withdraw the remaining 200 million from your account. If it isn't there, the order fails and is cancelled and no goods or isk exchange hands.
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Anne Alingus
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Posted - 2010.10.18 09:00:00 -
[7]
Similarly, I've seen people post contracts for t2 rigs that no one uses or produces. What they are doing for example is promoting their contract for 3 rigs at 100 mill each. The same person has created both buy and sell orders that make this seem like a reasonably good deal. Since it's a little tricky to find what goes into some t2 rigs (not easy to find the bpc with material requirements) people don't check what it costs to produce them and just figure they will relist them and make some profit.
In reality the rigs cost 5 mill. to produce and no one buys them anyways. I think the one I saw was for the Large + to Analyzer success rate rigs (forget what they're called at the moment).
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.10.18 11:34:00 -
[8]
One guy made 10bil running this scam over the weekend 
Iirc correctly the name was Pax Novastar and his contract history is extremely illuminating.
(Thanks to Qube for pointing this out to me)
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Presidont
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Posted - 2010.10.18 13:20:00 -
[9]
Should we consider this a scam, or just a very specific market manipulation method?
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Bernard Schuyler
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Posted - 2010.10.18 13:56:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane
Should we consider this a scam, or just a very specific market manipulation method?
It is a scam. He is not changing market perceptions, he is just goading a specific purchase. On the back end, whether "illegal" or not in CCPs eyes, he is using the Margin Trading mechanics for a specific purpose that only serves to facilitate the scam.
Market manipulation implies that you can fail. This scam cannot fail, it can only be ignored and he's out 10k for the contract fee :-p
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Racketeers
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Posted - 2010.10.18 15:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
he's out 10k for the contract fee :-p
public contracts so slightly more
and I always assumed He was watching contracts and canceling buy orders as soon as contracts got accepted, I even got tempted to make some of those garbage T2 rigs just to frak him up
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Kristian Pistian
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Posted - 2010.10.19 09:56:00 -
[12]
This one is indeed quite sneaky 
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.10.19 10:19:00 -
[13]
I had the wrong name earlier - check the contract history for Pan Novastar (not Pax, as my earlier post had it). He did rather better than Pinkon. In 3 days from the 16th to the 18th he cleared around 17bil. Interesting to note that he moved to low-grade jackal implants on the 3rd day and had even more success than with the rigs.
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Ivorr Bigun
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Posted - 2010.10.19 10:26:00 -
[14]
brilliant. I was all set to start running this and you wander into MD and start a thread about it.
bah.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
bodily fluid
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.10.19 11:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ivorr Bigun
brilliant. I was all set to start running this and you wander into MD and start a thread about it.
bah.
I'd go for it, most people don't read MD
and I was a bit o.O when I saw someone post a contract for a bunch of small sentry damage augmentor IIs in jita local. guess I know why they even bothered to make them now
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Racketeers
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Posted - 2010.10.19 20:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I'd go for it, most people don't read MD
They do now, i spam link to this post every time I see one of those auctions :)
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Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2010.10.20 13:24:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 20/10/2010 13:25:53
This scam uses some very obscure mechanics and is a borderline exploit. I imagine CCP will correct it soon.
It is quite reasonable to expect to be able to fill a buy order and recieve ISK when you have the required items.
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Kaahles
Fulcrum Weapon Systems Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.20 14:12:00 -
[18]
This little trick is older than my grandma (and she's quite old). Nothing new here, move along.
-----------------------------
OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!
Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.10.20 14:26:00 -
[19]
If you do fall for this trick just remember to put the modules up on the market at 95% of what you paid for them. The scammer has to move on to a new market or if he buys the market out again accept that all his work only makes him a few million isk.
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Pytria Le'Danness
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Posted - 2010.10.21 15:56:00 -
[20]
This scam is the FOTM in Jita right now, what worries me more than the scams themselves is the idea that CCP might change how Margin Trading works due to it. Right now I happily over-extend my credit line with Margin Trading knowing that even if I do not sell enough stuff before the buy orders are fulfilled I will not end up in the negatives.
Do you see a risk there? How big is the whine involved with these scams?
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Femaref
Armageddon Day
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.10.21 17:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness
This scam is the FOTM in Jita right now, what worries me more than the scams themselves is the idea that CCP might change how Margin Trading works due to it. Right now I happily over-extend my credit line with Margin Trading knowing that even if I do not sell enough stuff before the buy orders are fulfilled I will not end up in the negatives.
Do you see a risk there? How big is the whine involved with these scams?
That scam is around for years and is just experiencing a revival. It will subside again and another one will take its place - I don't see a reason for CCP to act.
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Racketeers
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:49:00 -
[22]
Changing color of Margin Trading buy orders will get rid of this exploit. No one can will be able to claim they didnt know what was going on when they got ripped off, while normal bulk Margin Trading orders will work just like they did.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:02:00 -
[23]
Neither a scam nor an exploit. Fair use of margin trading mechanics to create false interest.
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Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 21/10/2010 19:11:07
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 21/10/2010 19:09:02
Preface: I didn't get scammed, and I think most scamming is perfectly fine.
The problem with this scam is that there is no way to tell that the buy order is invalid. With other scams, a little bit of careful reading will uncover the truth. This one appears legit, and only the knowledge of an obscure market skill (or reading these forums) keeps people from being scammed.
This posits the question: what defines reasonable knowledge of scam detection? There are plenty of people that know quite a bit about EVE but could fall for this scam. Is that reasonable? Is that acceptable?
It is like getting scammed on a character sale. Since there is no way to tell if you are getting scammed (there isn't a third party that holds the character or isk), CCP has prohibited character sale scams. CCP needs to prohibit margin trading scams, or at least make a margin trading scam detectable (not just through inference and circumstantial evidence).
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
It is like getting scammed on a character sale. Since there is no way to tell if you are getting scammed (there isn't a third party that holds the character or isk), CCP has prohibited character sale scams. CCP needs to prohibit margin trading scams, or at least make a margin trading scam detectable (not just through inference and circumstantial evidence).
You didn't lose anything though. If the margin buyer managed to make you spend some time and money hauling stuff over for an order you wanted to fill, than he diverted you from something else. This is market PVP at its most-refined level.
I would support CCP adding a wallet journal entry (for both parties) for instances of attempting to sell to an order that doesn't have the cash behind it.
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Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.10.22 01:25:00 -
[26]
My initial thought was, "Wow, CCP should put an end to this type of scam."
Then I thought about it... and really it comes down to common sense. The people getting "scammed" are, at the very heart of the situation, paying more for an item than they should have. The issue with the margin trading is irrelevant. If the contract price was a good one - then you just got cheap rigs and should easily be able to sell them off. If the contract price was inflated, then you shouldn't have bought in the first place.
This is actually the perfect example of the perfect scam for EVE. No one needs to check these forums to identify whether the contract price is too high or not. Makes me wish I had margin trading skill to pull off this scam. Oh, and skills to produce T2 rigs would probably help.
---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Ruareve
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Posted - 2010.10.22 04:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 21/10/2010 19:11:07
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 21/10/2010 19:09:02
Preface: I didn't get scammed, and I think most scamming is perfectly fine.
The problem with this scam is that there is no way to tell that the buy order is invalid. With other scams, a little bit of careful reading will uncover the truth. This one appears legit, and only the knowledge of an obscure market skill (or reading these forums) keeps people from being scammed.
This posits the question: what defines reasonable knowledge of scam detection? There are plenty of people that know quite a bit about EVE but could fall for this scam. Is that reasonable? Is that acceptable?
It is like getting scammed on a character sale. Since there is no way to tell if you are getting scammed (there isn't a third party that holds the character or isk), CCP has prohibited character sale scams. CCP needs to prohibit margin trading scams, or at least make a margin trading scam detectable (not just through inference and circumstantial evidence).
Actually, you can check that it's a scam. While you can't check the buy order you can check the price history over the past year for that individual item. You can also go through other similarly related items to see their price. After comparing the item for sale against it's peers you will probably see that the contract rate is greatly inflated and that purchasing the contract is a big risk.
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2010.10.22 04:30:00 -
[28]
You can't cheat an honest man. *shrug* that pretty much says it all.
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