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Strip miner II's and crystals

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Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:20:00 - [1] I dont understand why a miner have to be a refiner is that not two deferent jobs ?? yet in order to use the new crystals for the Modulated strip miners (already on the market) yopu need veld refining 3 (special veld refining skill) refining 5 and refining eff 2 now as a miner why do you have to be a refiner as well ?? Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
Helplessandlost	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:25:00 - [2] Originally by: Paw Sandberg I dont understand why a miner have to be a refiner is that not two deferent jobs ?? yet in order to use the new crystals for the Modulated strip miners (already on the market) yopu need veld refining 3 (special veld refining skill) refining 5 and refining eff 2 now as a miner why do you have to be a refiner as well ?? They are? Where? Check us out
Etoile Chercheur	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:36:00 - [3] any miner worth his salt is a good refiner as well, in my opinion. Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) \| Hadean Drive Yards
Etoile Chercheur	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:55:00 - [4] Originally by: MogofDoom Right, your opinion, from your point of view, the way you choose to play the game, or thing others should. what more do you want me to say other than "in my opinion"? a miner that can't refine worth a damn has to depend on others to do it for him, or just deal with the loss of potential isk from selling... raw ore. shudders i've been a career miner since June of '03, and i've found it invaluable to be able to refine my own ore well, as well as the loot i collect from downed npcs i've taken out while mining. it seems clear to me that a miner that can't refine very well is like a fighter pilot who can kill things very well, but can't take a beating because of lousy skills in shield boosting, armor repairing, and cap recharge. or visa versa. what use is a ship that can take a pounding, but can't hope to do enough damage to actually defeat his opponent? obviously, this is just a comparison, and mining and fighting are not the same. it's just an analogy to help you understand my viewpoint. and yes, it is my viewpoint, and i don't need reminding of that fact. Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) \| Hadean Drive Yards
Ulendar	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:58:00 - [5] Well with the barges in the game a miner would be more intrested in train the barge skill to lvl 5 me thinks... Instead of some goofy refining skill to get that extra 0.000001% out of a veldspar refine Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this. It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
Private Botch	Posted - 2005.01.06 00:58:00 - [6] Well I finaly found some strip miners 2's for sale(Tew). I havent' found the crystals yet. Anyone seen them?
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.01.06 01:55:00 - [7] nope havent seen any crystals either Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
BigBadToughGuy	Posted - 2005.01.06 05:09:00 - [8] The refining skills for each ore type represent an understanding of that ore type from what I understand which allow you to extract more minerals from each type. If that is true, then I assume it is applied to the mining aspect since you know that ore type better and are able to extract larger amounts from each roid. As said earlier, any career miner that doesn't refine their ore is missing out on a lot of isk for their trouble. I think the majority of career miners simply had to buy the barge skill and begin training as we already had the refining skills trained.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.01.06 05:16:00 - [9] Miner and Refiner are 2 diffrent trades. So I feel you on the subject Paw. I think it's pretty lame. I recently switched to mining from the Fighter trade when barges came out. So obviously I have high 'Perception' and 'Will Power' with low 'Intel/Memory'. Yet now I must train for another year for crystals. Now i'll be a 'Fighter/Miner/Refiner' when I do what any full forced miner does. Give the ore to the head refiner in the corp, He refines it for me. Thanks CCP! -Famine Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
BigBadToughGuy	Posted - 2005.01.06 05:24:00 - [10] One other thing about the mining skills needed for barges, the large barge with 3 strip miner I's, mining 5 and astrogeology 5 mines the equivalent of 11.5 miner II's almost. So even without the advanced turrets, your still filling a jetted can in 28 minutes which is a lot better than an Apoc with 8 miner II's. On top of that, you've only spent about 35 mil as opposed to 110 mil for an Apoc.

Lusus Naturae	Posted - 2005.01.06 05:31:00 - [11] But you can't tank with a Barge so you're more limited to what you can mine on your own. I do like my Covetor though. -------=========-------- I <3 Veldspar
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.01.06 05:35:00 - [12] Edited by: Famine Aligher'ri on 06/01/2005 05:36:48 Originally by: BigBadToughGuy One other thing about the mining skills needed for barges, the large barge with 3 strip miner I's, mining 5 and astrogeology 5 mines the equivalent of 11.5 miner II's almost. So even without the advanced turrets, your still filling a jetted can in 28 minutes which is a lot better than an Apoc with 8 miner II's. On top of that, you've only spent about 35 mil as opposed to 110 mil for an Apoc. Yes but Apocalypses arn't made from paper, barges are. My barge is a 1.0 belt crippler with harvesters and 800+ per strip. Yet when you go down to deep 0.0 (Like CCP wants you too) to mine the rare ore. You are a sitting duck even with escorts. Couple pops and your done. Back to empire to pick up a new barge. Did I mention you can't mine Morphite with Strip Miners? No deep core lasers for us =( 3000m3 cargo - little shield/armor/hp. No sense. Im a big barge, bigger structure, more HP That's not the topic here though. But being you brought it up =) -Famine Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
BigBadToughGuy	Posted - 2005.01.06 06:03:00 - [13] I've seen a few posts from the Dev's (too lazy to find and link) saying they understand and are going to increase armor, structure and shields to make them more survivable. But the thing is a miner and we should have no ideas that this barge should be able to survive even a limited assault from 0.0 spawns for more than a couple of seconds to warp out.
Kendo Nagis	Posted - 2005.01.06 06:05:00 - [14] Edited by: Kendo Nagis on 06/01/2005 06:07:26 Refining and mining are two seperate roles with in eve. I'm a refiner with all the refining specific skills to lvl3+, but tbh have no intension of climbing into a barge, some of my corp mates may not be too pleased with this My main role is to go round refining the ore that the miners in our corp produce. Admitadly quite a few of them do have ref eff lvl4, some even have lvl5 and the odd speciality skill, but in general they are not refiners, and refining specialists are just that, specialists in refining! To be a miner you shouldn't need to know how to refine the ore, only how to crush it with the lasers. As a refiner I should be able to go to any stn and get the best results for the miner. At the moment though, that's a muet point as the specialist refining skills aren't being taken into account when refining in any stn below 50%, so the skills might as well be used for something But a miner shouldn't be forced to learn these skills. They should be used as a benifit, but not as a requirement. __________________________ "Death before dishonour, so long as it doesnÆt cost too much."
Laendra	Posted - 2005.01.06 06:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Paw Sandberg I dont understand why a miner have to be a refiner is that not two deferent jobs ?? yet in order to use the new crystals for the Modulated strip miners (already on the market) yopu need veld refining 3 (special veld refining skill) refining 5 and refining eff 2 now as a miner why do you have to be a refiner as well ?? That has never made any sense to me either...if they were going to require additional skills, they should have been related to mining...not refining...so, something like Jaspet Mining Efficiency would allow use of Jaspet mining frequency crystals. -------------------
Cracken	Posted - 2005.01.06 08:00:00 - [16] crystals can be gotten from some of the structures in lvl 3 deadspace missions.
Riddari	Posted - 2005.01.06 08:43:00 - [17] KIERON Yes you need to point this out to the Devs. This is like to be able to use Tachyon Beam Laser II you also have to be able to have Minmatar Bship lvl 3 and Projectile Artillery Large spec lvl 2 ¼©¼ a history
Lucre	Posted - 2005.01.06 13:37:00 - [18] Originally by: Etoile Chercheur any miner worth his salt is a good refiner as well, in my opinion. For a solo miner, perhaps. For a miner in a corp where there will usually be refining specialists, not at all. Besides, it's the equivalent (or worse) of requiring someone to learn Propulsion Jamming to level 5 before they can fit a tech 2 laser...
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.01.07 01:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Etoile Chercheur any miner worth his salt is a good refiner as well, in my opinion. For a solo miner, perhaps. For a miner in a corp where there will usually be refining specialists, not at all. Besides, it's the equivalent (or worse) of requiring someone to learn Propulsion Jamming to level 5 before they can fit a tech 2 laser... exactly I am a exelent Minet (barge 5, mining 5 and astro 5) however I always have others refine for me (ref 4 (not ref eff just refining) I am a 1 year old charector and I would like to concentrate more on the combat skills and the trade skills (and mission running skills) had it been a new mining based skill that was required I would not have been complaining but this is silly Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
Sister Immacolata	Posted - 2005.01.07 10:57:00 - [20] No it isnt. It makes perfect sense. First came the gun specialization skills, and if I understand it correct, ship specialization skills for interceptor, covert ops and assault frigates. Now exodus is here and brings us the remaining specialization skills for the mining careers. For too long refinery specialization has best been left for the alts. Now you need to specialize if you want to be a kick ass miner. And still, getting great refinery skills as well as top notch mining skills in the biggest mining barge is still faster achieved than the time you must spend to be able to fly one of them newfangled Assault Cruisers (cruiser level 5, medium turret specialization 5 and all the supporting skills to get to that level) plus the plethora of engineering and electronics skills you need to be able to efficiently drive one of those babies. I think the tying of refinery skills with the miner skills are a good thing. Ill have mining barge V in 12 days, and refinery efficiency V in an additional 12 days. In preparation of the modulated strip miner iis I skilled up and I regretted I didnt take refinery efficiency before. It now allows me to mine wherever I feel like and get the maximum yield of my ore with only the npc corp standing to worry about. Previously getting RE and the processing skills were kind of a dead end, now it leads to being able to use the most powerful mining technology known to mankind. I enjoy that. Now all I want is gas cloud harvesting and meteor mining! And it damn well better be more fun than icicle mining! . . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ...

MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.07 11:12:00 - [21] I'm a good miner. I suck at refining. My cormates do it. Why should I have to train refining to mine efficiently? Doesn't make sense at all IMO. Mai's Idealog
Kel Kracken	Posted - 2005.01.07 12:43:00 - [22] Edited by: Kel Kracken on 07/01/2005 12:44:03 Originally by: MaiLina KaTar I'm a good miner. I suck at refining. My cormates do it. Why should I have to train refining to mine efficiently? Doesn't make sense at all IMO. In order to use the most sophisticated tools you need to totally understand your materials you are working with. I like to imagine its similar to the Crystal Singers in Anne McCaffrey's books. Only those that fully understand how crystal sings/c-racks/cuts can harvest rarest crystals. In that way only understanding how to melt roids can you fully farm them. That being said can anyone tell wtf industry V was needed for barge skills on my alt? Cheers Kel edit for the c-racks grumbles
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.01.07 13:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Sister Immacolata No it isnt. It makes perfect sense. First came the gun specialization skills, and if I understand it correct, ship specialization skills for interceptor, covert ops and assault frigates. Now exodus is here and brings us the remaining specialization skills for the mining careers. For too long refinery specialization has best been left for the alts. Now you need to specialize if you want to be a kick ass miner. And still, getting great refinery skills as well as top notch mining skills in the biggest mining barge is still faster achieved than the time you must spend to be able to fly one of them newfangled Assault Cruisers (cruiser level 5, medium turret specialization 5 and all the supporting skills to get to that level) plus the plethora of engineering and electronics skills you need to be able to efficiently drive one of those babies. I think the tying of refinery skills with the miner skills are a good thing. Ill have mining barge V in 12 days, and refinery efficiency V in an additional 12 days. In preparation of the modulated strip miner iis I skilled up and I regretted I didnt take refinery efficiency before. It now allows me to mine wherever I feel like and get the maximum yield of my ore with only the npc corp standing to worry about. Previously getting RE and the processing skills were kind of a dead end, now it leads to being able to use the most powerful mining technology known to mankind. I enjoy that. Now all I want is gas cloud harvesting and meteor mining! And it damn well better be more fun than icicle mining! had it been aditional mining skills needed for example mining crystal skill lvl 1-5 (1 for commens (veld) 4-5 for rares) I would not complain however forcing a miner to do the refining skills (wich the refining trade if finally specialyzed as are most the other trades) to me is silly I might have the wrong idear here (thats why I asked in the first place) but again to me it seams that mining and refining are 2 deferent career choices (like builder and miner is/should be) thats not saying one person can not do both just that they would have to use time training both I would much rather see some high lvl skill called mining crystals (for instanse) that take mining 5 and maybe metalurgy 3-5 and astrogeolegy 4-5 (and what other mining skills that makes sense) then seing that we need a refining skill to use a mining crystal Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.07 13:13:00 - [24] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 07/01/2005 13:16:25 Originally by: Kel Kracken Edited by: Kel Kracken on 07/01/2005 12:44:03 Originally by: MaiLina KaTar I'm a good miner. I suck at refining. My cormates do it. Why should I have to train refining to mine efficiently? Doesn't make sense at all IMO. In order to use the most sophisticated tools you need to totally understand your materials you are working with. I like to imagine its similar to the Crystal Singers in Anne McCaffrey's books. Only those that fully understand how crystal sings/c-racks/cuts can harvest rarest crystals. In that way only understanding how to melt roids can you fully farm them. That being said can anyone tell wtf industry V was needed for barge skills on my alt? Cheers Kel edit for the c-racks grumbles No offense but I couldn't care less about Anne McCaffrey's books. Point is: People who trained mining did not necessarily have to specialize in refining until now and IMO it's good that way. With these new mining thingies I'll have to train refining 5 which makes no sense for me at all, seeing how my char will never become a specialized refiner. This is the same bs kind of chicanery they put on people who want to specialize in large turrets, making them have to invest weeks and months worth of training time (and hence RL money) into skills they will probably never use, just to create the illusion of specialization and longevity when it's really just a stupid (but effective) way to make people pay another subscription cycle. Mai's Idealog
Beisser	Posted - 2005.01.07 13:30:00 - [25] just cancel your subscription and leave the game... you can mine all you want but you have to skill lots of skills if you wanna use top of the line stuff... why should i need to have small specs to lvl4 and small turrets to lvl5 to use bloody tech2 med guns? and i bet the tech2 ammo/crystals for weapons require another heap of skills... -----------------------------------------------
Paw Sandberg	Posted - 2005.01.07 13:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Beisser just cancel your subscription and leave the game... you can mine all you want but you have to skill lots of skills if you wanna use top of the line stuff... why should i need to have small specs to lvl4 and small turrets to lvl5 to use bloody tech2 med guns? and i bet the tech2 ammo/crystals for weapons require another heap of skills... let me try to explain this again I am not complaining tha**** specialyzed (I agree fully with that) however why is it CROSS SPECIALYZED why do a great miner now have to become a refiner to use the best mining tools Thank You Paw Sandberg for all your BPC needs see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
BigBadToughGuy	Posted - 2005.01.07 15:17:00 - [27] Edited by: BigBadToughGuy on 07/01/2005 16:31:03 Paw, this is obviously something you are passionatly against and for some reason cannot grasp the concept. Specialization requires you to have an understanding of a broad range of different skills, you can't just run straight up the line and max out the one skill you would like to learn. If you could just train straight up to the large barge without the current requirements, we wouldn't have a single roid left in Empire space, everyone and their mother would be mining like crazy. In college, you don't just learn what you major in, you have to take all those crazy extra classes you say "I'll never use this in life" even though it doesn't pertain to your degree. Just like college, the current system requires you to broaden your character and invest in your developement by devoting the time required to learning these skills. If you don't want to learn the required skills, then stay at the lower levels where people generally end up in real life that aren't willing to do what's needed. Eve needs ditch diggers too, so you can either grasp the concept or grab a shovel.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.01.07 15:49:00 - [28] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 07/01/2005 15:49:06 Apoc with miner II = 40 ark/min Large Barge with strip miner I = 60 ark/min Large Barge with modulated strip miner II = 80 ark/min (trying to go on the miners stats, may be even more ?) To be honest I think we got off lightly with the skills needed for the large barge compared to what they must have been tempted to do, considering how much of an improvement it is over pre-exodus levels. With that being so the tech II strip equipment skill requirement was never going to be anything but massive, I think had they done it with purely new skills it would have been three new ones, something like rank 3, 6 and 9, the middle one requiring the first to 5 and the latter one requiring the middle one to 5, each level allowing one new crystal with no other effects - it might have been "mining specialized" but you would be worse off than you are currently where you gain the ability to refine efficiently as a bonus. Not that most of the hardcore miners I know dont consider refining to be an integral part of the profession (and how they became billionares in some cases) anyhow . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Kel Kracken	Posted - 2005.01.07 16:02:00 - [29] Honestly I try and help on these forums and what happens - you just get a I don't give a whatever for what your semi reasoned argument/explanation is. Well lets be a bit more rational about this then shall we. Modulated Strip miners are fairly good and you are whingeing about 1 lvl 1 skill to V, 1 lvl 3 skill to 2 and a final lvl 1 skill to 3 so thats going to be what somewhere just over a week? I can see what you're saying it just doesn't make a great deal of sense now if it was ref eff V you might have something as that would be a specialist refiner. ... and someone remind me to go back posting with an alt I get my heckles up less for some reason then.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.07 16:50:00 - [30] Originally by: Kel Kracken Honestly I try and help on these forums and what happens - you just get a I don't give a whatever for what your semi reasoned argument/explanation is. Just in case that statement was referring to my reply: First of all it's not like I don't care about your opinion. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't be posting here and I wouldn't have replied to your post. Now... it's not like I hate the concept of having to specialize in order to use highend equipment, more the contrary. The problem I have with those requirements is the fact that basically you now have to specialize in areas that don't have anything to do with what you're actually training for. Until now, mining and refining have been two seperate professions. Granted, they both sorta complement each other, but a highend miner didn't have to be a refiner to progress in his "careerpath". With these new requirements for highend mining lasers however you now have to become a refiner, otherwise you'll not be able to use highend mining equipment. Additionally, once you have trained those refining skills, you will never use them again if you're not planning to become a specialized refiner. What I am complaining about is the fact that instead of making those lasers require skills that actually make me better at mining, CCP makes me train skills I don't really need, effectively making me invest time and money into areas of the game that I'm not particularly interested in. Some may not see this as a big deal. To me however it is, because I have the opinion that this sort of "fake" specialization actually costs me RL money which I'm not very eager to spend for stuff I don't want in the first place. Also, they apply this fake specialization to highend mining lasers, but to use a large mining barge I only need mining level 4. That just tells me that skill requirements have nothing to do with the background story or general RPG aspects, but much more with training time which equals RL money (for CCP at least). Hence, my "I don't care bout Anne McCaffrey's books" statement Mai's Idealog



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