Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 15:10:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Machete Visor Lost whatever shred of interest I had given you due to a decently written post when you said you needed 10s of billions of plex every month to sustain your accounts Sounds like someone wants 4.9 months Even if you were on the up and up for a year, 3% is a Terri le return for this risk level
I'd want equity and a director spot before even considering a large investment
I'm sorry you feel that way, but this information was already presented when I said we had dozens of accounts in the original post. I would have thought our self-sufficiency was a given being that we've existed for many years now at this number. But I do understand your concerns. If any investors would like to withdrawal their money, we will of course return it.
Submitting to audits and equity inspections would only result in a goal-post change in requirements, eventually ending with a directorship spot, oversight by strangers, and full third party collateralization. I'm trying to be as forth-coming with replies as possible and I'm sorry it's cost us your patronage.
~3% a month may seem low, especially compared to many of the scams that run here. But for an institution that plans to be stable it's a reasonable number. Were we intent on scamming we'd offer more like 6-8%, and do set bond lengths. As it stands people can pull their money out at any time.
You don't know us, and thus have a very hard time trusting us, and I completely understand, I do. This bank is for the hundreds out there that do know us, and any others that want a passive income and feel it's worth whatever risk they've attributed to us. I wouldn't be staking our reputation on the line if I wasn't 100% confident in our abilities to manage and maintain a bank. Again, I'm sorry this investment isn't right for you. Anyone who wishes to pull out is free to do so
--------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
PinkFish
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 15:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jita Bloodtear In the past introducing more people into the whole oversight scheme has made things more complicated, and ultimately led to the downfall of past banks.
I can think of no cases were a previous bank failed due to excessive oversight. The closest to this I can recollect is when the oversight caught Mr. Horizontal trying to scam from EBANK. The only way oversight increases difficulty is if you are trying to hide something.
|
Calypsa Aeurelieus
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 15:42:00 -
[33]
Agreed. A "Bank" needs to have a cohesive structure that covers investors. For instance I run a "Fund" that functions similar to a bank for my alliance (We may eventually go public, but only time will tell) . And even at the alliance scale we offer
2% Interest Compounded Monthly, Transparency Thru Accounting Privelages, And a 3rd Party to secure portions of funding that aren't being invested as a security measure. (SOMER for anyone who wants to know)...
Without protection measures this idea will fall on it's face. 49b with plans for almost immediate expansion screams trouble to me especially with no "stated" business plan, and no intentions of having this secured in any manner. I can respect wanting to start something great, but you can't do it without checks and balances.
|
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 15:55:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus Agreed. A "Bank" needs to have a cohesive structure that covers investors. For instance I run a "Fund" that functions similar to a bank for my alliance (We may eventually go public, but only time will tell) . And even at the alliance scale we offer
2% Interest Compounded Monthly, Transparency Thru Accounting Privelages, And a 3rd Party to secure portions of funding that aren't being invested as a security measure. (SOMER for anyone who wants to know)...
Without protection measures this idea will fall on it's face. 49b with plans for almost immediate expansion screams trouble to me especially with no "stated" business plan, and no intentions of having this secured in any manner. I can respect wanting to start something great, but you can't do it without checks and balances.
I will discuss the matter with my brother when he gets off work. I believe I may have an unorthodox solution which may intrigue everyone. It would involve disclosure and external accountability. But for now I can't give any extra information right now, you'll have to wait until this evening. --------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Calypsa Aeurelieus
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 16:05:00 -
[35]
I don't think people will have a problem waiting. Especially when someone uses words like "Disclosure" "External Accountability" ... however "Unorthodox" isn't always bad.. but not always good.. especially when it's your Unorthodox and my ISK ;)
|
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 16:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus I don't think people will have a problem waiting. Especially when someone uses words like "Disclosure" "External Accountability" ... however "Unorthodox" isn't always bad.. but not always good.. especially when it's your Unorthodox and my ISK ;)
I would like to think of it as a creative solution to an unusual situation. But of course convincing my brother will be harder than convincing anyone else. And I'm only considering this because you guys are challenging our integrity, and we would prefer to be regarded in high esteem within the community. After all, our reputation is at stake here :) --------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 16:22:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jita Bloodtear
Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus I don't think people will have a problem waiting. Especially when someone uses words like "Disclosure" "External Accountability" ... however "Unorthodox" isn't always bad.. but not always good.. especially when it's your Unorthodox and my ISK ;)
I would like to think of it as a creative solution to an unusual situation. But of course convincing my brother will be harder than convincing anyone else. And I'm only considering this because you guys are challenging our integrity, and we would prefer to be regarded in high esteem within the community. After all, our reputation is at stake here :)
Your "reputation" consists of a throwaway name and nothing else. You have done nothing with your name to give it any value, and we treat it as such.
|
Calypsa Aeurelieus
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 16:58:00 -
[38]
Scott made the point short and clear. In your mind you are well known, in ours, you aren't. You say you know hundreds... but in my mind hundreds o people could accumulate a 50b investment easily. So Who are some people that WE know that KNOW YOU. Anyone who is a MD frequenter? ... For instance.. I say "Chribba" ... and everyone knows who I'm talking about... I say "Jita Bloodtear" ... well so far haven't had many people claim to know you.
|
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 17:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Scott McClellan
Your "reputation" consists of a throwaway name and nothing else. You have done nothing with your name to give it any value, and we treat it as such.
Ouch. I see the fine art of diplomacy is still alive... I'm attempting to work with the community to build a legitimate investment opportunity. Even for the market forums this seems a harsh critique. You may not know me personally, but I do have an extensive history and I'm not some illiterate crack pot out of the blue. I know things aren't as enticing as they could be at the moment, but please give me some time to situation things to a satisfactory extent. And then you may call me names and insult my existence.
Again, I know you don't know me as well as you'd like, but I'm working to change that. Give me a chance to prove ourselves and you will not be disappointed.
Fake edit: We're not asking for 50bil, we just opening things up for public participation. If only 15bil gets invested, great. If only 5bil gets invested, that's great too. The entire thing is supposed to be for fun and new experiences. If by the time we're done finalizing the venture no one trusts us, or no one is interested, then we'll probably just pay everyone back and close the doors. --------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Calypsa Aeurelieus
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 17:38:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Calypsa Aeurelieus on 22/10/2010 17:40:46 Still, you say you want to build reputation with us but that you have extensive history and rappour with others... well who are these people you have a reputation with? Would anyone here know any of them? Point us in a direction that shows some credibility and history that's verifiable. I don't think Scott was looking to be harsh. I admire the effort to create something great, but you have to give people a reason to agree to something of this magnitude. In my mind a running audit system and a form of 3rd party partial security is in order to get any real investors. Even at that some may not agree, due to the sketchy details and large investment people may want shares apportioned to appointed directors to make sure ... atleast for the most part, that people's investments are secure.
|
|
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 18:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus Edited by: Calypsa Aeurelieus on 22/10/2010 17:40:46 Still, you say you want to build reputation with us but that you have extensive history and rappour with others... well who are these people you have a reputation with? Would anyone here know any of them? Point us in a direction that shows some credibility and history that's verifiable. I don't think Scott was looking to be harsh. I admire the effort to create something great, but you have to give people a reason to agree to something of this magnitude. In my mind a running audit system and a form of 3rd party partial security is in order to get any real investors. Even at that some may not agree, due to the sketchy details and large investment people may want shares apportioned to appointed directors to make sure ... atleast for the most part, that people's investments are secure.
I appreciate your support and understanding on the matter. Most of our support base comes from ingame contact, and I'm not sure how often they frequent the forums. Although they occasionally seem to pop in, like TeaEarlGray HOT. But the support of people not known by the marketeers is not compelling evidence. Tonight I will make our case to my brother and see what further assurances we can offer. I would really like to make this work
--------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Thrasymachus TheSophist
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 18:06:00 -
[42]
Personal guarantees? Check. Placing intrnt spcshp reputation on the line? Check. No audit? Check. Claimed fame (yet nobody knows them)? Check. "Secret" plans? Check Don't really need the money, just doin' it for kicks? Check. "We don't give loans, but if we start, they will surely be collateralized." + "We offer no collateral."? Check.
I will be watching this one with great interest.
Oh yeah - SCAM. There, I said it. Articulate scam, but SCAM.
|
Calypsa Aeurelieus
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 18:12:00 -
[43]
:) lol. Jita, as you can see you have your work cut out for you, but it can only be said so many times.. you have to show us you have a valid and decent sized reputation .... just dropping one name isn't going to do it. I advise having a long convo with your "brother" about how to make this work for your investors, not just what you feel is best.
|
cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.10.22 19:51:00 -
[44]
Few comments:
1. You say you are well known in Eve, why haven't some of these people come forward and give you some references. The problem is that you are unknown on here, and you are asking us for a leap of faith and most of us have been burnt with them.
Have some people post here, who know you, what their relationship is, and what you have done for them. If some no post ALT comes on here backing you, there will be lol all round.
2. For an unknown (in MD) why should you command a rate of 3% when more established players who have successfully paid back previous loans have to pay more.
3. Banks have generally failed in the past because the management lost control of the interest expenses the bank owed vs the income the bank made with the capital. For all the large banks when failure or insolvency became apparent it was just easier to SCAM than sort out the problem.
How will your bank make money with the capital provided by investors. It is very important for the bank to be profitable or investors tend to lose their money. Once a certain threshold is reached it becomes difficult to trade 50B+ ISK and generate sufficient returns each month to cover the cost of capital and expenses. Size truly does become an issue.
Give me an overview of how your bank works and how it makes a return. Trade secret is not an answer.
4. Trust on MD is an important issue so why would you be opposed to having an ALT director who could look at the wallet, and watch the current business and report back to MD.
Why could you not allow someone into the corp and watch what you do for a month, and if you are clearly successful you will easily raise the funds.
|
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 01:57:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
In the past, not a single bank ever accepted or succesfully completed an audit.
This should speak volumes about how good it does to do whatever you want and eventually do like EBANK with their famous: "we are a privately held institution, we don't owe transparency to anyone" statements.
Let me reharse it for you, in the minimally tiny possibility you really wanted to setup a long standing and upstanding bank:
TRANSPARENCY IS HALF OF THE JOB TRANSPARENCY IS HALF OF THE JOB TRANSPARENCY IS HALF OF THE JOB TRANSPARENCY IS HALF OF THE JOB TRANSPARENCY IS HALF OF THE JOB
The rest is competency.
We have decided to accept your challenge. We will submit to a thorough audit to verify our capacity to generate regular returns for investors as well as our net wealth. If you are still in the auditing business, we would be honored if you would audit us. If not, we would welcome suggestions for other current active auditors.
Dividends have also been paid this week, as can be verified by shareholders. I have also spoken to Raw23 and he has convinced me to cap the investment so that investors can better estimate risk of the venture. We will not expand the scope of the investment beyond the current amount of 49bil without massive forewarning. We will still offer full buyback of shares upon requests.
It is our hope that a successful audit will help to alleviate some fears and concerns about our legitimacy. --------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 04:09:00 -
[46]
As a potential investor do you fancy answering my questions a couple of posts above.
|
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 04:56:00 -
[47]
Originally by: cosmoray
1. You say you are well known in Eve, why haven't some of these people come forward and give you some references. The problem is that you are unknown on here, and you are asking us for a leap of faith and most of us have been burnt with them.
Have some people post here, who know you, what their relationship is, and what you have done for them. If some no post ALT comes on here backing you, there will be lol all round.
I will ask some of our friends and investors to post here, people who know us. But if they are unknown to the forums then this adds very little to our case.
Originally by: cosmoray
2. For an unknown (in MD) why should you command a rate of 3% when more established players who have successfully paid back previous loans have to pay more.
We feel 3% is a fair rate for what we are doing. I understand that others have offered more, and have more public experience than us as well. 3% is a rate that we can manage comfortably. Other ventures do offer more, and likely receive funding a lot faster as well. And as an investor, it makes sense to go for known trusted names with higher rates of returns.
Originally by: cosmoray 3. Banks have generally failed in the past because the management lost control of the interest expenses the bank owed vs the income the bank made with the capital. For all the large banks when failure or insolvency became apparent it was just easier to SCAM than sort out the problem.
How will your bank make money with the capital provided by investors. It is very important for the bank to be profitable or investors tend to lose their money. Once a certain threshold is reached it becomes difficult to trade 50B+ ISK and generate sufficient returns each month to cover the cost of capital and expenses. Size truly does become an issue.
Give me an overview of how your bank works and how it makes a return. Trade secret is not an answer.
I have attempted to make an argument that we are able to generate direct income, even should all else fail. If worst comes to worst we can do high sec ice mining to repay investors. The audit we've agreed to should go a long ways to demonstrating our competence and that our assets can cover interest payments and bond repayments. We'll take the most skeptical auditor out there (let me know if you have any opinions on who to use), and explain the full details of everything to them, and give over all our full api keys, so they can refute or verify our business plans.
Originally by: cosmoray
4. Trust on MD is an important issue so why would you be opposed to having an ALT director who could look at the wallet, and watch the current business and report back to MD.
Why could you not allow someone into the corp and watch what you do for a month, and if you are clearly successful you will easily raise the funds.
I am offering a full api for the CEO of the corp which if I understand correctly will offer all the oversight that you have requested. We will offer this to a third party auditor so that they can report on the profitability of our business. Your points are valid, and I'm hoping that we can work out an auditor to watch our progress, and report any suspicious behavior. --------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Jita Bloodtear
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 12:39:00 -
[48]
I have spoken at length with Vaerah Vahrokha regarding audits and advice on how to proceed. We had a good discussion and he was full of good advice and wisdom. But the end result was that maintaining a public offering was not in our best interest, and that we did not meet the requirements for a transparent MD offering. We are hereby closing the bank and turning away all incoming isk. The bank currently has 5.311bil from 26 unique investors. Their investments will be returned in full with a small bonus to thank them for their participation. I will be sending out emails to each of them apprising them of the decision. Do not send any more money to the bank.
We originally started the investment bank for fun. And it was a rewarding experience for all who were involved. But opening up investment to the public sucked all the fun out of the experience in a matter of moments. We regret that we were not flexible enough to provide the oversight that was required to gain your trust. The shortcoming was on our end, and it's time to bring this train wreck to a close. I'd like to thank all who contributed, and all who have offered constructive advice. Special thanks to RAW23 and Vaerah Vahrokha for guiding advice.
--------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Thrasymachus TheSophist
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 14:55:00 -
[49]
Keep the offering private, ignore MD, and work with those willing to accept your terms.
Your pitch is strong and you were able to raise billions already. Don't shut it down just because you can't access the "big money" just yet. If this run goes well, perhaps a public offering will make sense in the future.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 15:16:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Keep the offering private, ignore MD, and work with those willing to accept your terms.
Your pitch is strong and you were able to raise billions already. Don't shut it down just because you can't access the "big money" just yet. If this run goes well, perhaps a public offering will make sense in the future.
We also discussed of this. Bloodtear needed more than this money and the market interest ratio I prospected to entice more investors plus the long-ish re-startup plan did not meet the parameters required to go ahead. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
|
Thrasymachus TheSophist
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 17:11:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Thrasymachus TheSophist on 23/10/2010 17:14:45
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Keep the offering private, ignore MD, and work with those willing to accept your terms.
Your pitch is strong and you were able to raise billions already. Don't shut it down just because you can't access the "big money" just yet. If this run goes well, perhaps a public offering will make sense in the future.
We also discussed of this. Bloodtear needed more than this money and the market interest ratio I prospected to entice more investors plus the long-ish re-startup plan did not meet the parameters required to go ahead.
Cf. to:
Originally by: Jita Bloodtear
Secondly, the bank is designed to be a scalable investment opportunity. Quite frankly the capital gathered by the bank is nothing more than a supplement to our own investments.
...
Thirdly, we're doing this for the fun of the community interaction, the quality discussions, and it's on the "checklist" of end-game content to do in Eve. We don't NEED investments to continue with our plans, it would just help speed it along.
These are fundamnetally inconsistent.
I declare Jita Blood a very high fraud risk based on fundamnetal inconsistency of disclosures.
Posting for posterity.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 18:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
These are fundamnetally inconsistent.
I declare Jita Blood a very high fraud risk based on fundamnetal inconsistency of disclosures.
Having discussed the plans with Bloodtear, I think the point being made here is that, whilst the investment was scalable, the small number of billions collected so far would not have have helped speed things up beyond their own natural growth to such an extent as to be worthwhile in exchange for the hassle that would ensue. Basically, I think the scalability involved minimum increments rather than a perfectly smooth upwards line.
|
eliaja
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 19:15:00 -
[53]
once again the unknown little guy gets struck down!
|
Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 23:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: eliaja once again the unknown little guy gets struck down!
once again, the cold harsh daylight of an impartial viewpoint has shown weaknesses in a business plan. -----------------------------------------------
- Who Dares, Wins
|
Thrasymachus TheSophist
|
Posted - 2010.10.24 00:06:00 -
[55]
You heard it here first folks:
I am declaring both Jita Bloodtear AND Raw23 to be scams.
Oh sure, it may be awhile, and sure, they may deny they had designs now ... but:
They're both scams. Period.
|
Trina Forrest
Caldari Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2010.10.24 00:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist You heard it here first folks:
I am declaring both Jita Bloodtear AND Raw23 to be scams.
Oh sure, it may be awhile, and sure, they may deny they had designs now ... but:
They're both scams. Period.
Lolà SO glad we have an ignorant clairvoyant on our hands, Its miss Cleo reincarnated here. ôOh man donÆt trust that fat man, and heÆs a scammerö
Call enough people scammers and you might find one, however, SIR, you are a complete f-kin moron. Thanks for being wasted space on godÆs precious earth.
/signed your biggest fan
|
|
CCP Jericho
|
Posted - 2010.10.24 02:32:00 -
[57]
Thread locked on request of OP.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |