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One bad day (got scammed too :-))

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Rox Marr	Posted - 2010.10.25 21:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Rox Marr on 25/10/2010 22:01:16 After all that time I got scammed too. T2 rig contract at Jita, suspicious, but with buyers offering more (really suspicious). Short version of the story could be: I contracted the stuff (let's say for 500m), was going to sell it (for 600m) and when I hit OK, it told me that the contract is not available anymore. Now you can suspect some market bot or what. But after just a bit of Googling you can find the sinner. Reportedly it's Margin Trading. Read the description and take it as "not risky for you, now risky only for those who see buyer's bid on market". More found here: http://eve-search.com/thread/1401003/page/1 My day was a bit longer and besides of being the result of stubbornness, missing information (from previous paragraph)... or maybe just plain stupidity, however you call it. I bought 3 pcs and when I wanted to sell them, buy order that lured me into business was tricky - wanted 9 pcs, minimum 9 pcs. Oh, sh...! How could I be so stupid! I knew it's a trick, but I wasn't aware of the Margin Trading yet. So I decided to fullfill the order and got the rest. Different regions, checking if those sell orders are somehow connected to that original Lisa Handriks scammer... I still thought she's risking and counting with a few pieces existing around far away (so it was). Under false illusion of time pressure I even risked to carry 200m in a Magnate. And I got suicided while docking at Jita (took a bit longer JUST this time)... whatever. Seeing me with 3bils (which would compensate me a bit) I bought the stuff again from the suicider, I had it all, stacked it, sell... and... the rest you know from the shorter version. It seems to be cancelled before you do it - but it's part of the Margin Trading process. Now... how is this any real? Where is any responsibility of the other side? I got punished for my stupidity and now I just know a bit more how can scam look like. But this one was a bit too much. In my eyes Margin Trading is the best tool for scammers - and check Jita to see it working. Of course you can just avoid this kind of stuff when you know it. But I still miss any responsibility there. And about suicide ganking... the same. No responsibility. I got suicided more often than I'd like (2 times under normal circumstances), and as expected trial account was involved. So players try hard to do something and other quasi-players are working within rules that obviously aren't perfect - but aren't any close to real. I'm pretty sure that without trialists allowed to gank in hisec and without that Margin Trading skill world of EVE wouldn't be any more boring and all the sandbox would still work nicely. When I get suicided by real player who will carry all the consequences in longer run... be my guest. And about Margin Trading? I do some business in EVE, but I could always cover my bids. As expected. But if this is "what defines EVE"... ok, I can come up with some more ridiculous ideas. And if I'm a carebear? Yes, I am, so what? :-)
Yuki Kulotsuki	Posted - 2010.10.25 21:51:00 - [2] u mad? Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
Your Client	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:03:00 - [3] tl;dr. no tears for you. Good day
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:07:00 - [4] Perhaps you just need a nice long Vacation! -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Rox Marr	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:13:00 - [5] Thanks for the support ;-) - No, I don't think I'm mad. - I don't expect everyone will read it, but why to reply then? I was quite OK (to my surprise actually) after loosing all that money. It's still just a game. - I had vacation recently, thanks.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:14:00 - [6] Next time, before you attempt to make a profit from someone else's stupidity, make sure that someone is not trying to profit from your stupidity.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 25/10/2010 22:22:11 edit: (ab)using game mechanics within the boundaries of the ToS is one of the defining factors of the "sandbox". Welcome to EVE.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:25:00 - [8] Serves you right for being utterly dumb. ~_~
Rox Marr	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:28:00 - [9] Sorry that my English is so bad that I wasn't able to emphasize the point better: Is Margin Trading designed well? Is suiciding in trial period OK? Don't tell me you believe the player will continue with that account... mostly not. Today I noticed (rather by luck) that even the scammer I mentioned is a new character now. Using the same scam again. The thing is, I (and not only I) pay for what happens. When I do wrong trade (happens, not talking about scams now) I pay. They just never really pay. And no, I'm not going to do the same scam just for ISKs.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:29:00 - [10] So what exactly does Margin Trading allow the contract-maker to do that is awesome-scammy again?

Matalino	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:36:00 - [11] Edited by: Matalino on 25/10/2010 22:45:27 Originally by: Rox Marr Is Margin Trading designed well? Is suiciding in trial period OK? Don't tell me you believe the player will continue with that account... mostly not. Today I noticed (rather by luck) that even the scammer I mentioned is a new character now. Using the same scam again. Margin trading is fine. They risk the broker fees when placing an order that they cannot fill. There is no real reason that they would need to create a new character to run a scam like that. The only thing that a new character has is a blank contract history. Those who are likely to fall for the scam are unlikely to check the character's contract history, so it doesn't really matter. Originally by: Rox Marr The thing is, I (and not only I) pay for what happens. When I do wrong trade (happens, not talking about scams now) I pay. They just never really pay. And no, I'm not going to do the same scam just for ISKs. Keep trying to fill their order. Each time you do it will cost them the broker fee to set it up again. In future, don't buy something unless you know what its real value is. Originally by: Eternal Noob So what exactly does Margin Trading allow the contract-maker to do that is awesome-scammy again? Scammer creates a contract selling the items for a high price. Scammer creates a market buy order for an even higher price. Because the scammer has margin trading, the scammer does not need to have the ISK for the full price of the market order when the order is placed. When someone attempts to fill the order, the order is cancelled because the scammer does not have enough ISK to cover the cost of the market order. The size of the order can be increased by using a minimum quantity on the buy order. This only works on items with very little market activity, because any attempt to fill the scammers order will waste their broker's fee. If there are plenty of alternative suppliers, there is more likely to be a legitimate set of orders that can fill the scammer's order. The lack of market activity should be a big hint that this is not a good deal, because if it was a good deal there would be a lot more activity.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.10.25 22:44:00 - [12] Exploits are cool. Whining is not. Get with the in-crowd, except the in-crowd does NOT want you because the in-crowd is full and has been since about 2006. Your only role in EVE is as entertainment for the cool kids. So just become an hero.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.10.25 23:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Matalino Edited by: Matalino on 25/10/2010 22:47:38 Because the scammer has margin trading, the scammer does not need to have the ISK for the full price of the market order when the order is placed. When someone attempts to fill the order, the order is cancelled because the scammer does not have enough ISK to cover the cost of the market order. The size of the order can be increased by using a minimum quantity on the buy order. I've only ever seen this the other way around - The scammer puts up a buy contract for something useless (like faction commander tags) with a massive buy contract (say 2 billion) and they relist the item at 100 mill per tag. As soon as the tags sell, the scammer cancels the contract and walks away with the profit.
Cthulhu F'taghn SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.10.26 00:30:00 - [14] I had to smile when ISD posted article about burning the scammers when anyone with half a brain knows they use margin trading.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.10.26 03:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas I've only ever seen this the other way around - The scammer puts up a buy contract for something useless (like faction commander tags) with a massive buy contract (say 2 billion) and they relist the item at 100 mill per tag. As soon as the tags sell, the scammer cancels the contract and walks away with the profit. That is a bad idea from a scammers point of view. A buy contract requires a full deposit in order to create it. If someone has the items and fills the contract the scammer is out the ISK and they haven't completed the sale. The scam only works when the buy order is placed through the market, because the order will fail as soon as anyone tries to fill it. The most that the scammer is out is the broker fee, which is normally less than 1% of the cost of the order.
Shura'Sokoris	Posted - 2010.10.26 06:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 25/10/2010 22:22:11 edit: (ab)using game mechanics within the boundaries of the ToS is one of the defining factors of the "sandbox". Welcome to EVE. ^ That.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.10.26 06:42:00 - [17] Also note that in order to be able to sell you multiple items the scammers have to set a minimum quantity on the buy order - else the ISK in escrow (24% of buy order value) might be enough to allow you to sell at least one item to their overpriced buy order. That alone should make you suspicious (minimum quantity is usually only used on minerals or regional buy orders).
Rasz Lin Caldari Racketeers	Posted - 2010.10.26 07:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Cthulhu F'taghn I had to smile when ISD posted article about burning the scammers when anyone with half a brain knows they use margin trading. Well I didnt, it means ISD is clueless
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.10.26 07:33:00 - [19] Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 26/10/2010 07:36:21 Hmmm I don't know anything bout what I was sayin??? Need Moar Research! -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Abonid Walker	Posted - 2010.10.26 08:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Abonid Walker on 26/10/2010 08:12:26 Edited by: Abonid Walker on 26/10/2010 08:11:47 EDIT: different computer, different forum character, sorry, this is Rox Marr again: About minimal number of requested items - lesson was learned instantly. ;-) It was my first scam and it was priceless in terms of experience. About Margin Trading - a few hours later. I'm going on, no harsh feelings towards the scammer (not sure why she has a new char with the same name now - probably just loves the name - but she announces contracts of different person - again not sure why - besides she hardly has Margin Trading along with more usefull skills yet). Metalino, thanks for your constructive response - broker's fee isn't any big risk, I hope we agree on that. One successfull scam covers many of them, though I'm impressed when someone makes this offer where just fees must be over 200m. Next time she wanted not 9 but 19, so I gave up and went on my slow way. Obviously. :-) What concerns me most, that when something frustrating happens in hisec, some fresh trial account is used. Scams can be avoided, suicide ganks are much harder to avoid (not to mention that many times it is not only one player shooting, so even semi-tanked industrials have some problems). In sandbox terminology it's like someone runs into the sandbox, hits your face, takes your bucket and gives it to another player there (you can't know) and runs away again. Everytime this happens you see a new face. In real life you're not limited to your sandbox. Here you are - yet with those intruders involved. Can I live with that? Yes. There is hardly other game like this. But can't it be done better? I'm sure it can. When I'm shot in a WH, I'm obviously not happy, but that's the part of the game as I see it.

Dead Jesus Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.26 09:53:00 - [21] When you are in a hole, stop digging.


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