Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
The PitBoss
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 23:28:00 -
[31]
Edited by: The PitBoss on 03/11/2010 23:31:49
Originally by: DURRRHHH That can be easily twisted to "Don't be in so many wars at once" and "you have the option of wardecing or not" and "raise your taxes".
Not really ... I'm not the one in the 'sand box' crying cuz i'm getting sand kicked in my face
Wardecs had been nerfed years ago .. look up the 'P-Nerf'
Next you'll be asking for CCP to have a DEV hold your hand while you play the game
Thank-You,
The Pitboss
Signatures by: Kalen Vox |
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 23:47:00 -
[32]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 03/11/2010 23:50:28
Originally by: The PitBoss Edited by: The PitBoss on 03/11/2010 23:31:49
Originally by: DURRRHHH That can be easily twisted to "Don't be in so many wars at once" and "you have the option of wardecing or not" and "raise your taxes".
Not really ... I'm not the one in the 'sand box'... P-Nerf
P-Nerf...
Very cheap considering the fact that an alliance is made up of a series of corporations and those corporations are responsible for those funds. If you have 10 corporations in an alliance and are at war with 10 other corps/alliances then its 50 mil per group a week (plus whatever the cost is for continuing the wardec). If you have 3 corporations in your alliance and are having this issue, try consolidating the alliance into a corporation. Nine times out of ten, its an alliance wardecing a smaller alliance or corporation when you consider the grief engine mechanic.
No sand is being kicked in my face. This is more targeted towards corporation on corporation wardecs. Besides, I also noted that it can be an additional 25-50 mil per wardec addition (not another 200 mil). To be honest though, you should really not be in that many wars if its costing you that much isk or at least make them mutual. I am not against a corporation's ideal if they want to shower themselves in wardecs with as many corps as they want. Just against the cheapness of it all.
But if a DEV wants to give me a dutch rudder while I play the game, I really can't complain. :)
|
menacemyth
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 06:14:00 -
[33]
I like this take on wardeccing. The argument is not that the mechanic is broken, but more that the prices are outdated. With this I agree.
100mil/200mil means that you need to work to make it financially viable. War is supposed to be expensive.
|
Tarkelan
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 18:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Lykouleon
Originally by: The PitBoss Being in a corp/alliance is a privilege .. NOT a given .. if you don't like wars .. stay in NPC corps -or- get better wing-mates
^^ this
Well that would be also a solution for highsec wars. No Corps and Alliances made by highsec players means no reason to fight wars in highsec at all. Congratulations your suggestion kills highsec warefare even more than higher fees for wars.
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 00:59:00 -
[35]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 05/11/2010 01:05:05
Originally by: menacemyth I like this take on wardeccing. The argument is not that the mechanic is broken, but more that the prices are outdated. With this I agree.
100mil/200mil means that you need to work to make it financially viable. War is supposed to be expensive.
That's the point I was trying to get across. *gives menacemyth imaginary kudos*
|
Taxesarebad
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 02:51:00 -
[36]
finally a good suggestion, even if said before ( i think it was) 100mil is nothing for a week of war, its easily possible to permanently wardec a corp as it stands now with basically no issue,2mil a week , even i can afford to wardec for months/years. 100mil will make wars what they should be WARS. not zomg lets lolkill this corp for a week. of course the "propvp" corps are *****ing, but its what is expected.
eve needs and isk sink, this is the easiest one and would be a very fast one to implement. 2million isk? come on 1 lvl 4 mission and u can dec for a month, actually, more then that.
|
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 03:07:00 -
[37]
Originally by: The PitBoss Not Supported ...
Mechanic isn't perfect but is far from broken
We spend 2.75 billion a week every week we run 10 wars ...
Being in a corp/alliance is a privilege .. NOT a given .. if you don't like wars .. stay in NPC corps -or- get better wing-mates
Can't have this...
2.75 Billion is the cost of 3 Tech 2 fit Carriers and for what they do that is plenty money(10 wars is not a good enviroment to Grind on a weekly basis and afford the ships to fight). I guess it would be better if we remove the stacking system and have it at a higher flat rate.
That way corps Mercenary Corps can actually afford to run multible wars, but the first one isn't ******edly cheap. Might actually be a buff to people dedicated to Wars.
Just a thought...
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
|
Taxesarebad
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 03:12:00 -
[38]
could always have zones, i put that idea forth like 6 months ago 0.0 wars free lowsec cheaper highsec more expensive
you could even divide highsec into .5~.7 and .8+ or somthing
|
Seamus Donohue
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 03:34:00 -
[39]
Supported. __________________________________________________ Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. |
Shea Amara
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 06:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Arkanor The point of view of people supporting this is not "PVP needs to stop nerf pvp nao!". It's the fact that Eve is based on making decisions, and it's not really any kind of decision to make when it costs you 2 million to start a war.
War is srs bsns, it should be something that has to be weighed as an OPTION, and right now there is no gravity in that decision. The wait-time before going active does not count as a cost, and is irrelevant in making the decision to go to war.
Better yet, I think it would be more fitting to have a "bid" system, whereas the aggressor corp pays for the initial war, and the target can pay the same amount to cancel it. All funds go straight to CONCORD (ISK sink right there).
PVP takes many forms, not all of them are ship combat.
This is the best ideal for High sec War decs. It even makes common cents. If the cops can be payed off to not do there job they can probly be payed off to do there jobs as well.
|
|
Arctic Monkey
Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 07:35:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Not supported. This is PvP game and PvP should be cheap.
Agreed.
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 16:20:00 -
[42]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 05/11/2010 16:25:06 Edited by: DURRRHHH on 05/11/2010 16:24:21
Originally by: Arctic Monkey
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Not supported. This is PvP game and PvP should be cheap.
Agreed.
You mean GRIEFING should be cheap. PVP is always cheap, go out to low sec/nullsec or have a mutual wardec (or trick someone and **** them off into wardecing your corp/alliance). Wardecs will still be cheap, even if there is an increase in costs, just that a person has to ACTUALLLY *gasp* consider who they wardec. Fighting is cheap. War is expensive.
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 16:51:00 -
[43]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 05/11/2010 16:57:06 Edited by: DURRRHHH on 05/11/2010 16:53:47 Since the Bid System has been mentioned, I guess I need to decide whether or not I support it. Frankly, I do not support a bid system for a variety of reasons. I will list them below.
A.) The bid system is a new "module" that would need to be tested and incorporated into eve. That would bring much more overhead, many more months of bug testing, and there really needs to be more people dedicated to other things. With my fix, its a few lines of code change. With a bid war, it requires opening a new set of databases, more error checking, and a whole new set of rules and logic. Yes, its simple from a person who does not code for a living... but I rather see the lag problems fixed than to burden CCP with a bid war set up. There are already enough problems in eve than to keep adding "more crap" ontop of each other. (not saying the bid system is crap, but its just that there is more of a chance that bad things will go terribly wrong if you continue to add more things to Eve). B.)It will be broken and abused. For instance, small corporations who can not afford the bid system get overrunned by griefers. Bigger corporations have more isk to toss away at smaller griefers. Yes, it creates a isk sink, but not an effective one. C.) Another big issue - Say Corp A wardecs Corp B. Corp A pays 2 million to start the bid, and Corp B pays 2.00001 mil the next day. Does this mean that the bid system will continue for 24 hours before the war bid will be cancelled? How much of a cool off until Corp A can wardec again? Even if you limit the window for the bid system to last 24 hours, there are a few people who have a life outside eve who can probably not make it in that kind of window and then their votes in the corp are shoved aside.
Much more coding, much more bickering, too much of a pain in the ass for CCP to even consider this option right now.
Towards the RR corps issue...
Simple fix is to hire a merc corp to do the same thing. Even I have to admit that hiring a merc corp is sometimes the best option to alleviate the strain of a wardec. Nothing says "**** you" like a stream of 30 kestrels against 7 wardecing HACS. If the RRers are still a pain, switch to neuting and using cloak ships to allow "warp on zero" tactics. Its going to cost the offending corp more isk if you use a dominix to neut a dedicated logistics ship even if the dominix goes pop. Always have a "higher- up" friend in a merc corp you can talk to on a normal first-name basis. Do a few roams with them, learn some tactics. If your miner/high sec corp gets wardecd, I am sure you can afford to spend 100-300 million towards your friendly merc corp who will love to cause the station camping to be in your favor.
Still, they can escalate...
Nevertheless, RR can be used both ways. Its... fair. Anyone in CCP can agree with that.
|
Ostracon Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 16:56:00 -
[44]
War decs can be loads of fun, but I must agree the fee is too low. An established corp will have no problems with an increased fee.
Personally, I think something should be done with the neutral rr game mechanic.
|
Solo Gray
Gray Ghost Industrials
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 17:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Solo Gray on 05/11/2010 17:05:29 I think there is something wrong with the game mechanic. Everytime I get decc'ed, I wake up with a sore anus.
|
LordElfa
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 19:36:00 -
[46]
I think 300 mil for a corp dec and 600 mil for a Alliance dec is about right. Declarations of War are a serious ting and should reflect that seriousness in their price. Right now, Decs are being used 85% of the time as a means to PVP non-PVP interested targets in High Sec or simply as a griefing tool by those who get a chuckle out of seeing newbie corps squirm and disband.
The fact is that CCP designed these particular regions for a reason. High Sec is for youngins to learn the game and for casual gamers to roam more securely. Low Sec is for PVP'rs, Pirate activities, risk for reward and general butthurt. NullSec is for those Corps who want to run things their way and God help you if you get in the way.
Cheap and easy War Decs have led to what is an ever growing epidimic of grief deccing by experienced PVP corps looking for a good time at the expense of corps who don't even know what they're doing yet. I'm not saying it should be made illegal by any means, nor am I saying that High Sec should be overtly safe. What I'm saying is that it needs to be expensive enough that you better damned well mean it or else it becomes nothing more than paying next to nothing to shoot ducks in a barrel.
To put it in different terms, you wouldn't want Nike Tyson to be able to walk into a local boxing gym and pay the manager 2 bucks to run around knocking out all the amatuers before they even learn how to throw a proper punch.
He should pay 300 bucks, lol.
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 04:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: LordElfa
To put it in different terms, you wouldn't want Nike Tyson to be able to walk into a local boxing gym and pay the manager 2 bucks to run around knocking out all the amatuers before they even learn how to throw a proper punch.
He should pay 300 bucks, lol.
Lol, I really like this analogy. +kudos
|
Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 07:13:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Taxesarebad could always have zones, i put that idea forth like 6 months ago 0.0 wars free lowsec cheaper highsec more expensive
you could even divide highsec into .5~.7 and .8+ or somthing
Except 0.0 wars are always free. Why would anyone wardec to fight in 0.0
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 02:03:00 -
[49]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 07/11/2010 02:05:27 I dare say it, bumping this thread. There has not been enough opinions/flaming.
|
Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 07:38:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Arkanor on 07/11/2010 07:40:29
Originally by: LordElfa Edited by: LordElfa on 06/11/2010 08:46:58 I think 300 mil for a corp dec and 600 mil for a Alliance dec is about right.
Considering it costs less than 2 million to start a new corp, I'd say this is a bit on the high side.
The key is finding the balance point where people who don't want to fight aren't constantly getting grieved (because believe it or not it's not FUN), but someone can't just corp hop to run NPC missions with no tax.
I think a flat fee + bid system is one of the better ways to resolve it. The aggressor would pay the initial fee (which really should be in the range of 50-100m), target can match (maybe at a 10% discount or so) to cancel before war goes active. If they do the aggressor can raise their bid to any amount, and the target would have to repeat the process to cancel it.
Of course, corporation creation fees need a bit of an adjustment too, so as to not insanely buff corp hopping.
|
|
LordElfa
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 08:04:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Arkanor Edited by: Arkanor on 07/11/2010 07:40:29
Originally by: LordElfa Edited by: LordElfa on 06/11/2010 08:46:58 I think 300 mil for a corp dec and 600 mil for a Alliance dec is about right.
Considering it costs less than 2 million to start a new corp, I'd say this is a bit on the high side.
The key is finding the balance point where people who don't want to fight aren't constantly getting grieved (because believe it or not it's not FUN), but someone can't just corp hop to run NPC missions with no tax.
I think a flat fee + bid system is one of the better ways to resolve it. The aggressor would pay the initial fee (which really should be in the range of 50-100m), target can match (maybe at a 10% discount or so) to cancel before war goes active. If they do the aggressor can raise their bid to any amount, and the target would have to repeat the process to cancel it.
Of course, corporation creation fees need a bit of an adjustment too, so as to not insanely buff corp hopping.
My lord, that is an epic idea, I like it. I second your idea.
|
Ancyker
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 08:23:00 -
[52]
Why not just scale the price to the number of members. Either it could scale based on the compared amount of members (ie, if you have 2x as many members as the corp you want to wardec, it costs twice as much as normal) or it could be a fixed price based on your member count (ie, 10mil per member)
Example for a comparative fee: Say the normal price is 100m... 10 man corp wants to dec 10 man corp? 100m 10 man corp wants to dec 100 man corp? 100m 20 man corp wants to dec 10 man corp? 200m 100 man corp wants to dec 50 man corp? 200m 100 man corp wants to dec 10 man corp? 1000m
For fixed price based on member count it'd just be like 10m * members, or 20m * members, or whatever amount is decided upon.
There should be some sort of mechanic (or rule) to prevent people from just having everyone leave the corp, place the war dec, and rejoin. Perhaps something like standing where it takes a week for the system to recognize there is less members in the corp (but not for more members) or some other "smart" feature that makes it unrealistic/annoying to "trick" the system.
Could also factor in corp age too. Deccing a significantly younger corp could increase the price. Perhaps using an "average age", average the age of all characters in the corp. Having lots of younger alts join won't help you defeat this when placing decs because then you will have more members which raises the price for placing a dec on someone else or will decrease the price for placing a dec on you by a larger corp. So this one combined with the above balances itself.
---
Another option independent of those is maybe pay a fee to concord (as an ISK sink) for protection/immunity from war decs in highsec. The fee should be quite large, significantly more (at least double) than it costs to place a war dec, and should scale to the number of members you want to protect, ie 200mil + (10m * member count). The fee should not cancel any war decs already in place. So paying it will not make decs go away or be unable to be removed/renewed. That means you have to pay it all the time if you want the protection. Also, you cannot place wardecs while "protected" and any you have should cancel. It should also take a day to initiate just like a war dec does.
Since threats for most corps are not "all the time" and the fee will be high enough per member, it would likely only be used by corps with absolutely no interest in PVP. It wouldn't pay any corp which could properly defend itself against most threats to pay the fee. That means only pure PVE corps would use it.
This would also give corps that target rookies a recruiting advantage since they could promise "safe" (well, eve safe) corp play.
Perhaps add another penalty to it, such as concord adds 5% tax to all members in addition to whatever your corp taxes. So if your corp wants to tax 10% and concord adds their 5% and all your members take a 15% tax which is a lot and they aren't going to like that.
Another option for a penalty is to still allow war decs but only protect the targets in very high sec (say 0.7 and above).
Perhaps also make the option unavailable for very old corps (after say, a year, the option becomes unavailable). Though this might be unfair.
--
For the record, I prefer the first option over the second but am happy with either.
In any case, I support an increase in war dec fees, either as stated in the original post or as I just stated.
|
LordElfa
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 16:50:00 -
[53]
Well Ancyker, I've heard that idea proposed before and at the time I liked it. The problem is we have to think like CCP and think of a way to make changes that will cost next to nothing to implement and **** off at least half of the player base. ;)
The amusing thing is that the PVP base thinks CCP sucks up to the Carebears and the 'bears think that CCP sucks up to the PVP crowd. On average I just see a lot of sucking on CCP's behalf but I'm not sure that any one group is at the center of it.
(j/k CCP <3)
Though in all seriousness, one day we'll all wake up and realize that we have CCP right where they want us.
I just hope they include a tube of KY with Incarna.
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 20:56:00 -
[54]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 07/11/2010 21:05:35 Edited by: DURRRHHH on 07/11/2010 21:00:10 I guess the general gist of this thread, minus a few trolls, is the fact that corporation on corporation wardecs need to be INCREASED in price. I will admit, an alliance in 10 wars that cost 550 mil does seem A BIT high, but overall fair if you consider the fact that wardecs are by choice.
I am going to edit the proposal and change it to something on more general terms. "There needs to be a change to the cheapness of wardecing prices in high sec" and "That there needs to be an increase".
Any other mechanic fixes, I would like to be avoided in this thread. Yes, they can be suggested, but the overall goal is to adjust the wardec costs towards market inflation.
The more complicated the change, the less likely it will EVER be fixed or adjusted. Keep that in mind folks. CCP only has a very small team, if any, focused on fixing bugs/making adjustments in eve. If you want Eve stop rush-fixing a few of their releases, there is a quality control thread "Excellence" somewhere around here. Post in there too, and give opinions.
Eve Excellence: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1327362
Without even a team dedicated to making these necessary adjustments or bug fixes, most of the proposal threads are kind of pointless.
|
Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 10:23:00 -
[55]
This proposal would increase the entry-level barrier for pvp, especially for new players. In my opinion the price of declaring war should vary with the corporation size and/or maybe character age. If two noobcorps want to fight, they should not have to give all their money to concord. It also clear that 2 mill is not enough o make someone think before declaring a war, so we need a sliding scale. Anyway, that's not what is broken about high-sec wars. Instead, two things need to be fixed for high-sec wars: Station games Neutral RR
Your proposal does not focus o the real issue.
|
DURRRHHH
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 19:15:00 -
[56]
Edited by: DURRRHHH on 08/11/2010 19:22:12
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev This proposal would increase the entry-level barrier for pvp, especially for new players. In my opinion the price of declaring war should vary with the corporation size and/or maybe character age. If two noobcorps want to fight, they should not have to give all their money to concord. It also clear that 2 mill is not enough o make someone think before declaring a war, so we need a sliding scale. Anyway, that's not what is broken about high-sec wars. Instead, two things need to be fixed for high-sec wars: Station games Neutral RR
So you do agree that the prices need to change?
Towards everything else said: There is alot of problems about neutral RR, but those are being addressed in different threads.
Station camping is always going to be there, I have seen BOTH sides of the coin use it (I have seen plenty of OMFGSOHARDCOREPVPERS and BLEEDINGHEARTCAREBEAR***S station camp like nobody's business) similar to the neutral RR fit. Like I said before, if they neutral RR then have a cloaky+strike team on standby. Its not hard to delegate these kinds of tasks if you are a decent FC. Besides, best way to end a wardec is to cause as much isk harm as possible. Fighting is cheap, war is expensive.
Towards the newb corps, once again 2 million is easy to obtain. Its not necessarily a barrier if a corp knows what they are doing. A sliding scale would be beneficial, but even then if 7 man corp wardecs another 7 man corp, the price should definitely not be a pathetic 2 mil. Maybe 25-50 mil for a corporation wardec, 100-200 for an alliance. Nevertheless, the more complicated you make a damn module... the less likely CCP will implement.
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev Your proposal does not focus o the real issue.
There are plenty of issues in this game that need to be sorted out. Although this one is not as important as LAG fixes, it is still an outdated issue that needs to be adjusted. Thankfully, it is cheaper and easier to fix something as simple as prices depending on what kind of legacy code they are dealing with and what kind of module needs to be adjusted. I am not going to say Wardecing prices are more/less important than station camping or neutral RR, but it is EASIER to adjust game prices than it is to implement new laws and algorithms for neutral RRers or causing PVP station huggers to bounce off if they have been aggressed.
|
LordElfa
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 20:37:00 -
[57]
Edited by: LordElfa on 08/11/2010 20:39:37 Jeez, just raise the prices high enough so that Ward Decs become serious matters again and not fly by night whims. Its not brain surgery.
ATM, its just too easy to lock up some poor newb corp in their base for a month just because you think its funny to do so or have 3 ongoing decs at a time, all the time, just so you can free PVP in high sec without having to deal with pirates.
|
Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 20:59:00 -
[58]
*ponders*
I'm not really very knowledgeable on this subject, but I was looking at war deccing someone a few days ago, and the quote for isk that it gave me was 50 mil. Where is 2 mil coming from?
Also, I honestly think 100 mil vs. 2 mil for most corps wouldn't make a huge difference (at least for the ones who want to declare war in high sec)...
|
Selinate
Amarr Wardens of the Void
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 21:03:00 -
[59]
Originally by: LordElfa Edited by: LordElfa on 08/11/2010 20:39:37 Jeez, just raise the prices high enough so that Ward Decs become serious matters again and not fly by night whims. Its not brain surgery.
ATM, its just too easy to lock up some poor newb corp in their base for a month just because you think its funny to do so or have 3 ongoing decs at a time, all the time, just so you can free PVP in high sec without having to deal with pirates.
I'm wavering between saying that noobs should stick in the NPC corps so they can't be war dec'd, and still have access to *somewhat* experienced players who can help them out every now and then, and player corps should have a large and stable enough pvp wing to be able to defend the new players on their own.
There are, of course, times when the war dec should stop by force, as in when a group of people are just getting harassed constantly and not able to play the game because of this, but honestly, it's preventable...
|
Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 21:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Selinate
Originally by: LordElfa Edited by: LordElfa on 08/11/2010 20:39:37 Jeez, just raise the prices high enough so that Ward Decs become serious matters again and not fly by night whims. Its not brain surgery.
ATM, its just too easy to lock up some poor newb corp in their base for a month just because you think its funny to do so or have 3 ongoing decs at a time, all the time, just so you can free PVP in high sec without having to deal with pirates.
I'm wavering between saying that noobs should stick in the NPC corps so they can't be war dec'd, and still have access to *somewhat* experienced players who can help them out every now and then, and player corps should have a large and stable enough pvp wing to be able to defend the new players on their own.
There are, of course, times when the war dec should stop by force, as in when a group of people are just getting harassed constantly and not able to play the game because of this, but honestly, it's preventable...
i really don't like anyone bein stuck in npc corps, espeshially when people have been playing for 5 yearsand are still in noob-corp. I think people need to get into the "reacl game" asap
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |