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How far to train learning skills during my 100% bonus?

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Shiro Kotaki Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.11.15 08:34:00 - [1] Hi folks, I got this quote from a topic on this same board called Suggestion: Speed up learning for newbies Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/09/2010 22:31:55 Originally by: Sieges The learning system is excellent as is. The Learning Skills are optional. New players can still have fun right away, no new player is going to catch up to Tripoli I have my learning skills to 5/4 and got them there while I was training for fun things to do along the way. Removing them will take away some of the strategy, sacrifices and choices we have to make along the way in our careers. I think it will dumb-down the game. As new character you start off at 800 SP/hour - the max speed with max learning skills is 2770 Sp/hour. At the end of a year you'll have 7-8 million Sp, with maxed out learning skills you'll have 24+ million. So not training them isn't really an "option" unless you don't mind still flying a t1 cruiser after a year. The choice is between 1) get some fun now but training very below par and walking into a wall of sluggishness once your 1.6m double speed time is over or 2) cripple yourself for 2+ months but train at max speed so you'll have up to 17 million more SP at the end of the year an being able to fly far more ships and fit T2 stuff. Really an excellent deep and meaningful strategic mechanic indeed! No wonder so many people stay after the tutorial once they find out about this! What would be EVE without it? Very dumbed down! So I guess it's true that if you first train all training skills when you still have the bonus, it'll benifit IMMENSLY at the end of the first year... but shoudl I really be training them to level 5? Because that does literally take months of extra time just to get those last couple of attribute points... is there any way to calculate the gain you get from traning say, Spacial Awareness IV and Spacial Awareness V and then compare them to see if that extra point is going to pay off anytime soon? Currently I'm working on getting the rank 1 learning skills up to IV and then getting the rank 3 learning skills up to level III... Or should I get just a point more? ============ Om niet verdacht te lijken liet hij overal zijn DNA achter ============
Shiro Kotaki Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.11.15 08:41:00 - [2] Edited by: Shiro Kotaki on 15/11/2010 08:42:26 Currently I got Learning IV and training it up to V would take me 2 days 11 hours 7 minutes and 53 seconds. It'll boost my training skill time up by another 2%... (2dx24x60x60)+ (11hx60x60) + (7mx60) + 53s = 212,873s 212,873s/2 = 106,436.5s 106,436.5sx100 = 10,643,650s 10,643,650s/(60x60x24) = 123.19d So if I'm correct, training Learning to V will have itself "paid off" in 123.19 days? Is that the way to calculate it? And if so, how does this go for the learning skills only boosting a particular attribute? ============ Om niet verdacht te lijken liet hij overal zijn DNA achter ============
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.11.15 08:53:00 - [3] Basic learning skills Number of days for a single skill to pay (IF APPLIED AS PRIMARY) L1 - 0.16 days L2 - 0.89 L3 - 5.05 L4 - 28.57 L5 - 161.62 SOCT Advanced Number of days for a single skill to pay (IF APPLIED AS PRIMARY) L1 - 0.32 days L2 - 1.79 L3 - 10.10 L4 - 57.14 L5 - 323.23 Pulled it off from somewhere, I cba to check the calculations, but the ballpark should give you some idea on the returns. Typically, it will also depend on what sort of character you're building as well ... PVE/PVP, Science or Jack of All trades and your planning for the total SP it will acummulate. For example, if you're building a 10mil SP max lab rat, then a 5/4 for both Int & Mem only makes sense. If you want to equip the above lab rat with some basic ship skills, a 4/3 or a 3/2 for both Perc & Will is more than adequate.
Shiro Kotaki Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.11.15 09:43:00 - [4] Wow thanks that's already a great help! ============ Om niet verdacht te lijken liet hij overal zijn DNA achter ============
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.11.15 09:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Shiro Kotaki Is that the way to calculate it? You're overcomplicating things by taking into account your current stats. One easy way to calculate the pure value of the SP invested into learning skill is to just count the difference. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skill_training Rank 1 Learning Skill L1 - 250 SP L2 - 1414 L3 - 8000 L4 - 45255 L5 - 256000 Getting fom L4 to L5 (for a Rank 1 skill) costs 256000 - 45255 = 210745 SP You gain 1 (Primary) attribute point. So the ROI is simply, 210745 / (60 x 24) = 146.35 days. The same exercise can be applied to the SOCT Rank 3. L1 - 250x3 SP L2 - 1414x3 L3 - 8000x3 L4 - 45255x3 L5 - 256000x3 Yeah, I realize the numbers differ a little from the table in my prev post, but the numbers more or less give you the pattern and magnitude.
Boinz	Posted - 2010.11.15 10:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Boinz on 15/11/2010 10:51:51 Just to get some more onions into this topic. Im going to get +3 implants and then 4/4 learning skills and +4 implants before going into any other skills. (so im using the 100% boost bonus for that). after getting 5/4 learning im finally getting +5 implants. tl;dr +3 implants instantly 4/4 +4 implants 5/4 + 5 implants Then again this is just what Im going to do because I have played the game for 6 years now and this is a new char, for people new to the game I wouldnt recommend it at all.
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.11.15 11:06:00 - [7] Edited by: Baneken on 15/11/2010 11:11:54 As a general rule I have given for news with same question is: - cybernetics IV - learning V - the rest as 4/4 - 5/4 for per or int. Ofc. getting those +4's (implants) take time and effort for newbies but it also gives them a goal to aim for while grinding those standings to get isk. I did the above with my alt while doing the epic arc. you get enough leeway to fit is basic skills for a cormorant (as in enough to get through epic arc) and one basic learning skill to V before you hit the 1,6mil mark. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.15 11:14:00 - [8] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 15/11/2010 11:22:15 Originally by: Baneken As a general rule I have given for news with same question is: - cybernetics IV - learning V - the rest as 4/4 - 5/4 for per or int. Something like that, unless you're very much into industry most skills have either intelligence or perception as primary attribute. - Every extra attribute point adds 60 SP/hour = 1,440 Sp/day to the training speed of skills that has that as primary attribute. - Every extra attribute point adds 6024365= 0.52 million SP to your yearly SP when it's the primary attribute of the skill you're training. For secondary attributes that's half. The math: 4/3 to 4/4 costs 111.765 SP and pays itself back in 111.765/1440 = 78 days; 4/4 to 5/4 costs 221.645 SP and pays itself back in 221.645/1140 = 194 days; 5/4 to 5/5 costs 632.235 SP and pays itself back in 439 days. Of course that's only in case of training skills that have that attribute as primary. For learning skills concerning attributes that are mainly used as secondary (memory - although drones and learning skills have it as primary, and willpower - although t2 ship skills have those as primary) it takes twice as long to get the time investment back. As EVE requires you to play quite a few years to really enjoy a lot of ships and aspects of the game there's no reason not to train your learning skills (except Charisma) to at least 5/4, it will ALWAYS pay itself back. Perception and Intelligence even to 5/5 if you play for approx. 3 years. And the sooner you start training those skills, the sooner it pays back. I don't say it's the 1st thing you must do but it's definitely worth training them.
Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.11.15 11:15:00 - [9] See this thread - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1117654
Shizuken Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.16 18:30:00 - [10] I wouldn't worry too much about min-maxing you long term output. After skills hit level 3 I've tended to notice that the training time grows exponentially. In my mind this simply makes it a matter of do you want to be able to use new gear in the next week or do you want to rum the same boring missions for another week while your learning skills train. I was planning to max mine but got tired of getting the same missions over and over again so I started training something more fun...
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.11.16 19:22:00 - [11] It's also worth noting that training the advanced skills to 5 only pays off when you have tens of millions of skillpoints, by which time you probably wont really care all that much about 100 SP/hr I'd go with INT and PERC to Basic 4 / Adv 4, and the others to Basic 4 / Adv 3. And Learning 4. That should take about 600k SP of your double-speed 1.6M, leaving you a million or so to use on skills to do stuff with. If, after a month or two, you're having fun and you're definitely sure you're going to play for a while, then get on and do Basics 5 / Adv 4 plus Learning 5 - my advice is to spend no more than 50% of your training time doing this. You don't need to train learning skills to 5 right away, any more than you need to train anything else to 5 right away. Exception: if you're starting an account now but you know you're not going to play much for the next few weeks because you're studying for exams or because work is going to be super-busy over the christmas period or your video card died and it will be a month until you can buy one that will actually let you play EVE, rather than just log in and change skills or whatever other reason, then what the hell, get your learnings to 5+4 now. But otherwise it's better to balance learning skills with actually playing. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Conor Todaki Caldari The Kuor Collective	Posted - 2010.11.19 20:47:00 - [12] ****... Just hit my 1 year in EVE about 3 days ago. I have pretty shabby learning skills. :/ 8mill SP now.
DarthCaboose	Posted - 2010.11.19 21:50:00 - [13] There is absolutely no point to maxing out your character's stats if you grow bored of the game and give up. I believe Sieges is right in saying that the system is excellent in that you can always choose between going for Learning skills and other fun skills. Spending all of your 1.6 million points in just training up the Learning skills is just not fun for most new players. Granted, it would be best to pick up at least a few of the Learning skills to give you benefits from the very short return time. However, spending the first week flying the same frigate without any non-Learning advancement is a great way to kill the mood of this game.
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.19 21:56:00 - [14] Originally by: Conor Todaki ****... Just hit my 1 year in EVE about 3 days ago. I have pretty shabby learning skills. :/ 8mill SP now. Poor you!!! ;(
Worgen Fratmon Minmatar Instapop Industries death from above..	Posted - 2010.11.19 22:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis I'd go with INT and PERC to Basic 4 / Adv 4, and the others to Basic 4 / Adv 3. And Learning 4. That should take about 600k SP of your double-speed 1.6M, leaving you a million or so to use on skills to do stuff with. If, after a month or two, you're having fun and you're definitely sure you're going to play for a while, then get on and do Basics 5 / Adv 4 plus Learning 5 - my advice is to spend no more than 50% of your training time doing this. I did pretty much this when I was first starting out. After 6 months of training time (decided to train an alt on this same account for 1 month) I have 10.3 million SP. After getting out of my 1.6 million sp bonus period, I have trained my learnings up to 5/4 (Charisma is at 4/4).
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.20 01:29:00 - [16] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 20/11/2010 01:30:02 Originally by: Worgen Fratmon After getting out of my 1.6 million sp bonus period, I have trained my learnings up to 5/4 (Charisma is at 4/4). That's mathematically impossible: 5/4 = 448,254 SP * 4 = 1,793,016 SP 4/4 = 237,509 SP Learning V = 312,489 SP ------------------------ + TOTAL = 2,343,014 SP
Worgen Fratmon Minmatar Instapop Industries death from above..	Posted - 2010.11.21 00:01:00 - [17] Edited by: Worgen Fratmon on 21/11/2010 00:02:10 Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 20/11/2010 01:30:02 Originally by: Worgen Fratmon After getting out of my 1.6 million sp bonus period, I have trained my learnings up to 5/4 (Charisma is at 4/4). That's mathematically impossible: 5/4 = 448,254 SP * 4 = 1,793,016 SP 4/4 = 237,509 SP Learning V = 312,489 SP ------------------------ + TOTAL = 2,343,014 SP Either my wording was unclear, or you may have missed the AFTER part, I can't be certian (but probably the former). It was intended to read that after I had finished my 1.6mil skill point bonus period (having learnings at 3/3 or 4/3 range) is when I trained up to 5/4 and 4/4 (for charisma). Also, you miscalculated somewhere, I currently only have 2,004,080 sp in learning. Worgen Fratmon
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.21 00:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Worgen Fratmon Either my wording was unclear, or you may have missed the AFTER part, I can't be certian (but probably the former). Also, you miscalculated somewhere, I currently only have 2,004,080 sp in learning. Worgen Fratmon Oops you're right ... silly me!
Alice Katsuko Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.21 08:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Shiro Kotaki Hi folks, I got this quote from a topic on this same board called Suggestion: Speed up learning for newbies Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 29/09/2010 22:31:55 Originally by: Sieges Snip Snip So I guess it's true that if you first train all training skills when you still have the bonus, it'll benifit IMMENSLY at the end of the first year... but shoudl I really be training them to level 5? Because that does literally take months of extra time just to get those last couple of attribute points... is there any way to calculate the gain you get from traning say, Spacial Awareness IV and Spacial Awareness V and then compare them to see if that extra point is going to pay off anytime soon? Currently I'm working on getting the rank 1 learning skills up to IV and then getting the rank 3 learning skills up to level III... Or should I get just a point more? Train the basic learning skills to 4, and the advanced to 3. Ideally you want the basic learning skills at 5, and the advanced at 4, but that can wait. Don't focus on training learning skills at the expense of having fun, no matter what anyone else says about efficiency. This is a game. You're paying to have fun. You might lose a few days of training time, but you'll be doing more interesting things while the 'efficiency' folk are spinning their newbships in station.
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.21 12:02:00 - [20] Originally by: Alice Katsuko Don't focus on training learning skills at the expense of having fun, no matter what anyone else says about efficiency. This is a game. You're paying to have fun. When is training learning skills not at the expense of having fun?
Pantload Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2010.11.21 16:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Alice Katsuko Don't focus on training learning skills at the expense of having fun, no matter what anyone else says about efficiency. This is a game. You're paying to have fun. When is training learning skills not at the expense of having fun? How does this remark advance this thread? You've made your staunch anti-learning skill stance abundantly clear MANY MANY times. In fact, I would say in every thread that ever comes up on the subject you put your opinion about that out there. We get it. At this point you are just trying to let your attitude poison other players which makes you part of the problem and not part of the solution. To the OP, the poster just above Starling there gave you the most pragmatic advice there is on the subject. Shoot for 4/3 at first. 5/4 is a reasonable goal later. 5/5 has a longer payoff so you need to know you'll be around for years to truly show the benefit of it. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here

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