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Natasha Fury
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Posted - 2010.11.18 13:50:00 -
[1]
So, I've been been playing around in lowsec and having a blast with frigs (way better than silly nullsec blobs). I am mostly specialized in missiles and was wondering if there was a fit that could counter the enormous amount of MSE/AB/nuet rifters I've been engaging in the belts. I am currently training for T2 Autocannons atm and may grab Small Hybrid Turrets 5 at some point as well.
I've been waiting for my T2 small autocannons to finish up and have been flying the following:
[Merlin, Nubbins]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core Damage Control II
Medium Shield Extender II 1mn Microwarpdrive Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead S 150mm Light Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead S
Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
I've investigated using a plated rocket Kessie but got murdered. I've been thinking about a kiting fit as well using small standard launchers, but the fitting on them is obscene.
Is this all just a useless pipe dream? Should I go ahead and just train a gunboat?
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Intigo
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.11.18 15:17:00 -
[2]
Kite them at 8k with an AB + Web frigate with Rails. ___________________
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.18 15:41:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 18/11/2010 15:43:59
^^^ That, or use rockets after they're fixed in two weeks. Or use a Griffin with a ladar jammer, that'll really **** them off.
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Oblivion Maximus
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Posted - 2010.11.18 15:43:00 -
[4]
merlin can take it. every one better is a worm.
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SomeHardLovin
The Boondock Saints
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Posted - 2010.11.18 17:13:00 -
[5]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 18/11/2010 17:14:36 Apply webs. Apply guns at a range further than 8k. Repeat. Basically what she said above. Rifters are the best T1 frigate for PVP but.. its still a T1 frigate. ---
Bring forth the Assault Frigate apocalypse! |
Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.11.18 19:16:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 18/11/2010 19:16:46 You shouldnt just go out with ab web rails thinking youre going to run into medstender rifters - you do that and the first things youll run into is a armor standard one who will quickly blow you up while your rails cant hit ****. You need to make your ship viable against more than one target. I would also REALLY get blasters since they have huge damage and the merlin gets a bonus to range for them which makes them work better on this ship.
[Merlin, Nubbinz] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small Shield Booster II Small Shield Extender II
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I
150 dps with CN antimatter 125 with Null and the range on the blasters isnt half bad. 3000 ehp 53 defence efficiency, 65 overheated, crap unstable.
The problem is actually applying your rocket damage, but its not a huge problem, as the blasters are most of the damage anyway, and lets see a rifter kite this with null loaded in.
This setup has more ehp and a better active tank than the basic cookiecutter rifter setup and still has over 150 dps. You still can't really stop them from running away though but that's why you train thermodynamics so you can heat your AB just long enough to maybe pop them. Basic shield pvp merlin setup.
You can also fit a MAPC and downgrade the guns for a medium shield extender but I dont like that stuff really. Or you can use a web in place of one of the shield mods, but I don't reccomend it really.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.11.18 20:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gypsio III ^^^ That, or use rockets after they're fixed in two weeks. Or use a Griffin with a ladar jammer, that'll really **** them off.
Haha, yes. Death by a thousand cuts (plus one light drone, don't forget to pack one).
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Random Alt1467
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Posted - 2010.11.18 21:59:00 -
[8]
[Crucifier, Kite] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Tracking Enhancer II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Warp Scrambler II
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x1
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andeira
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Posted - 2010.11.19 00:27:00 -
[9]
[Harpy, pvp blaster shield boost] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200 Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II
Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
needs 3% pg implant but with 250 DPS and 87 dps tank it usually eats those pesky rifters. fit damage control II if you want to test it out also does the job but not so fast.
Or if you wanna stay away from them
[Harpy, pvp rail buffer] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Medium Shield Extender II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 'Arbalest' Standard Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
10 km optimal and 3.8 falloff with cn anti use thorium to stay at 18 km optimal or load up some spike to hit at 36 km optimal
Yes I love the harpy
-------------
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Intigo
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.11.19 00:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 18/11/2010 19:16:46 You shouldnt just go out with ab web rails thinking youre going to run into medstender rifters - you do that and the first things youll run into is a armor standard one who will quickly blow you up while your rails cant hit ****. You need to make your ship viable against more than one target. I would also REALLY get blasters since they have huge damage and the merlin gets a bonus to range for them which makes them work better on this ship.
[Merlin, Nubbinz] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small Shield Booster II Small Shield Extender II
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I
150 dps with CN antimatter 125 with Null and the range on the blasters isnt half bad. 3000 ehp 53 defence efficiency, 65 overheated, crap unstable.
The problem is actually applying your rocket damage, but its not a huge problem, as the blasters are most of the damage anyway, and lets see a rifter kite this with null loaded in.
This setup has more ehp and a better active tank than the basic cookiecutter rifter setup and still has over 150 dps. You still can't really stop them from running away though but that's why you train thermodynamics so you can heat your AB just long enough to maybe pop them. Basic shield pvp merlin setup.
You can also fit a MAPC and downgrade the guns for a medium shield extender but I dont like that stuff really. Or you can use a web in place of one of the shield mods, but I don't reccomend it really.
I take back everything I said.
This guy is amazing. ___________________
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Khalessa
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Posted - 2010.11.19 03:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Intigo
I take back everything I said.
This guy is amazing.
Okay so I'm left wondering if this is a classic case of "sarcasm doesn't translate well through posting" or if it's just out of character
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.11.19 03:56:00 -
[12]
Yeah im wondering the same thing
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Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.11.19 04:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Khalessa
Originally by: Intigo
I take back everything I said.
This guy is amazing.
Okay so I'm left wondering if this is a classic case of "sarcasm doesn't translate well through posting" or if it's just out of character
Intigo is calling you incompetent. Signature locked for inappropriate image. Zymurgist |
Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.11.19 04:53:00 -
[14]
I think you mean hes calling me incompetent. and if ur right then hes a ****** :)
inb4 "l00k at his KB stats"
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Dray
Caldari Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.11.19 05:29:00 -
[15]
What ever you choose, you need a web, if you cant dictate range forget about it.
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Intigo
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.11.19 07:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak I think you mean hes calling me incompetent. and if ur right then hes a ****** :)
inb4 "l00k at his KB stats"
~
Fight my MSE Rifter in that Merlin of yours and see how it fares.
Also, your KB stats are kinda fun actually. ___________________
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Dark Voynix
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.11.19 07:51:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dark Voynix on 19/11/2010 07:52:01
Originally by: Dorian Tormak and the merlin gets a bonus to range for them
muahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
God. i cant stop laughing!!!!!! Do you mean the optimal range bonus applied on a small blaster guns?? Yeah.. it changes everything!!!
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Abram Thrust
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.19 09:21:00 -
[18]
Having been on both sides of this fight several times... you're on the right track
that it the OP posted though.. one thing REALLY stands out:
Republic Fleet Carbonised Lead in an Autocannon.
Short Answer: Never, use plasma, fusion or EMP long answer: I know what you're thinking, it'll give you extra range if he tries to kite you. but due to the way AC's work (short optimal, amazing falloff) the optimal range penalty doesn't really hurt AC's, to the point where at all ranges except the very very end of double falloff, the short range ammo will out-damage the lead.
other wise the fit is about the best you're going to get, as the shield neut rifter will do best if you either have blasters (kite you until neut shuts off the guns, then close in for the kill) or an inivul field rather than a web (he'll likely have 125mm AC's and blazing speed to actually make tracking work in his favor, until neut kills the Invul field and your tank crumbles.
as you have it, the web and Cap warfare resistance will force the rifter into a slugging match, something that is often not in the favor of a rifter.
only other thing i'd change? AB in place of the MWD, you say you're in lowsec so you don't have to worry about bubbles, and having AB/web/scram will make it that much harder for the rifter to get away if it's not going in his favor. It's amazing the glory you can win with a Rifter, a handfull of Fusion S, and Balls |
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
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Posted - 2010.11.19 09:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Florio on 19/11/2010 09:37:32 Those rifters are probably the most versatile t1 frigate out there. They can be beaten with 3 setups in my experience.
1) classic bleeder punisher, no prop mod (yeh yeh i know, a risk), disruptor (scram is standard, but if you know you're against ab...), web, faction emp autocannons (barrage in cargo), best named nos overheated, small armor rep overheated. Hit approach and toggle heat, tho' an experienced pilot may remember to get out of scram range before the point of no return. 2) kiting mwd/3 standard launcher, 250mm howitzer, t2 disruptor, cap recharging mods breacher. 3) kiting mwd/3 standard launcher, t2 disruptor, cap recharging mods kestrel.
With the last two, you pulse the mwd to stay out of range. Do not use tank, use cap recharging mods - your tank is your range. Always "look at" your target so you can keep range. Overheat disruptor if necessary. Beware slingshots, where target pulls away from you then, when you mwd towards him, turns back towards you and pwns you with a scram. t2 disruptor vital as otherwise engagement range (comfortably out of scram range/within disruptor range) is too narrow. Named nos on punisher better than t2 as greater overheat duration (which you'll need against the overheated neuts).
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2010.11.19 09:42:00 -
[20]
Quote: Do you mean the optimal range bonus applied on a small blaster guns?? Yeah.. it changes everything!!!
Try loading a neutron merlin with null.
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Dark Voynix
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.11.19 10:42:00 -
[21]
Originally by: TaluxA
Quote: Do you mean the optimal range bonus applied on a small blaster guns?? Yeah.. it changes everything!!!
Try loading a neutron merlin with null.
Dude i know perfectly what null ammo do, but that's not the point.
The guy i quoted was suggesting blaster over autocannon on a merlin because the ship have a "range bonus". Null don't change nothing since projectiles have barrage ammo's.
I'm not arguing if projectiles are better or not, just that the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids.
The optimal bonus could be useful when using rails but for sure its totally irrelevant with blasters. And the guy i quoted seems don't even know the difference between "optimal" and "falloff".
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Reneg Destir
Caldari Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2010.11.19 11:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak
[Merlin, Nubbinz] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small Shield Booster II Small Shield Extender II
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Small Core Defence Operational Solidifier I
150 dps with CN antimatter 125 with Null and the range on the blasters isnt half bad. 3000 ehp 53 defence efficiency, 65 overheated, crap unstable.
This setup has more ehp and a better active tank than the basic cookiecutter rifter setup and still has over 150 dps.
Merlin fit is ****. I would like to mention that it DOES NOT have the ehp of a cookie cutter rifter. It has the ehp of an incursus. It can and will be kited by rifters as your guns go out to 8 and your lol rage rockets go out to 9. Your doing super**** dps at that range and with no buffer and no cap you gonna diaf. It has no web so **** range control and **** dps from the only weapon system that will be working cause of your no cap, lol shield booster has no nos, no cap booster etc. You will have to decide whether you want to shoot or rep and then shortly you wont be doing much at all. And since the op specifically mentioned neuty rifters the fit is super ****.
------------------------------ The Duty of brave pod pilots during times of great danger is to suffer , endure great loss and if need be to die, but above all seek out the enemy and fight him. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dark Voynix I'm not arguing if projectiles are better or not, just that the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids.
What part of "optimal range bonus to hybrids" is giving you difficulty?
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:41:00 -
[24]
you guys are so hilarious. intigo yeah man my KB is fun actually i lose lots of rifters but ive destroyed more isk than i lost so im happy. the only rifter that could kite that setup effectively without having to run away would be MY rifter setup which no one uses, not the cookie rifter, even with barrage. with neutrons and null the optimal for that merlin is 4.2 might not have as big a falloff but the ****ing optimal man. and calling the fit down for using rockets is pretty garbage i mean i could use a neut or something on there but idunno who gives.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.19 12:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dorian Tormak and calling the fit down for using rockets is pretty garbage i mean i could use a neut or something on there but idunno who gives.
You don't have a web and you're using Rage rockets.
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Natasha Fury
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Posted - 2010.11.19 13:17:00 -
[26]
Thank you guys again for all your help! I fought another rifter again last night in a standard missile Kessie. It was great fun. I kept clicking "Keep at range 20km" and was doing alright until i capped out from mwd usage and trying to keep at range. Then I got caught, as he overheated his ab and scrammed me then it was all over.
I need to learn how to manual pilot now. I was also trying out Breachers and Inquisitors as well and I am having lots of fun playing with missile ships despite all the people who tell me to train "a real ship". Oh well Im having a great time and I think I will specialize in frigs.
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Dark Voynix
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.11.19 13:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Dark Voynix I'm not arguing if projectiles are better or not, just that the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids.
What part of "optimal range bonus to hybrids" is giving you difficulty?
I have to answer with another question: "what part of the fact that optimal on small blaster is soo damned small that this bonus is totally irrelevant anyway?"
With maxed skills we are talking for something like 500m difference (250m if you are using faction antimater) for something like 1.4km optimal.
Do you really expect that other frigates will be that close so the optimal difference realy matter something??? You have no speed to reach them and no web to slow them down so you cant really force someone to be that close except if the WILL be that close. In which case most likely its another blaster ship that probably HAVE a damage bonus on hybrids.
Excluding faction ship the incursus is probably the only one that aims to be that close, but since have 3 damage bonused blasters will shred you in pieces.
Most frigate fights happens at the edge of scrambling range (if not more) so this 250 meter bonus dont help you at all. On the the side projectiles do less damage in 1-3km range but look how far you can deal decent damage.
You CAN use blaster if you wish but you cant say that you MUST use them due to this ship bonus. This bonus is irrelevant and projectiles with damage selection, no cap usage and barrage falloff have other advantages that make them a viable choise.
Use blaster where you have hybrid damage bonus or falloff bonus ( even better where you have both like with the incursus ). If not its just one of the possible choices.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.19 14:07:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 19/11/2010 14:11:09
Originally by: Dark Voynix
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Dark Voynix I'm not arguing if projectiles are better or not, just that the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids.
What part of "optimal range bonus to hybrids" is giving you difficulty?
I have to answer with another question: "what part of the fact that optimal on small blaster is soo damned small that this bonus is totally irrelevant anyway?"
...and we come back to Null. And 75 mm rails, tbh.
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Dark Voynix
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2010.11.19 14:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dark Voynix on 19/11/2010 14:29:58
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 19/11/2010 14:11:09
Originally by: Dark Voynix
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Dark Voynix I'm not arguing if projectiles are better or not, just that the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids.
What part of "optimal range bonus to hybrids" is giving you difficulty?
I have to answer with another question: "what part of the fact that optimal on small blaster is soo damned small that this bonus is totally irrelevant anyway?"
...and we come back to Null. And 75 mm rails, tbh.
If you will really go straight using 75mm rails you are welcome to do that. About the "null", i already answered that projectiles have barrage.
And there is a distance point where maxed skilled projectiles (with barrage) on a merlin do more damage than blasters (with null) always on the merlin. This distance is close to 7.3 km that is below t2 scrambling range so you don't even need to overload ( the scambler).
This without taking into account that projectiles have lesser fitting requirements, dont use cap and you can switch to other ammos with different damage type
Repeating AGAIN what i said already sayd: "You CAN use hybrids, but you don't MUST use hybrids"
Something else?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.19 15:02:00 -
[30]
Quote: And there is a distance point where maxed skilled projectiles (with barrage) on a merlin do more damage than blasters (with null) always on the merlin. This distance is close to 7.3 km that is below t2 scrambling range so you don't even need to overload ( the scambler).
Now you're talking. Yes, beyond about 7.5 km Barrage does more damage than Null Merlin. Closer in, it's Null all the way. And 75 mm rails outdamage Barrage from ~3.5 km all the way to 10 km - neglecting tracking, which isn't unreasonable for a ship trying to maintain range.
I'm not saying that Barrage/ACs is a silly choice on the Merlin - they give respectable performance from 0-10 km without any worries about cap and are pretty easy to fit. But your original point was "the merlin have not any valuable bonus for using hybrids". Well, they do get a bonus, it is valuable and it translates into a damage bonus large enough that at any particular range <10 km one of Null or 75 mm rails will be doing more damage than Barrage.
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