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Time spent on learning skills. I think it will not be fully refunded.

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Agostinuke Chimaera	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:16:00 - [1] I apologize for my english (I'm Italian) and also if the following argument has been already pulled out in any other thread: I have the feeling that if they refund you only the actual number of skill points spent on your learning skills, and not any more than that, then you will find that within the new system, you will be able to train that number of skill points much much faster than the time that once you spent on them. I'm sure somebody could calculate what an optimal (but with average implants used by average people) learning plan would have taken to complete in comparison to how long the same number of refunded skill points would take within the new system. What I'm trying to say is that I have the terrible feeling that they should really refund you the TIME not the skill points you have spent on those learning skills. They should calculate an average completion time for the learning skills and compare the result with the time needed to learn the same number of skill points and normalize the number of skill points refunded to that result, that I think will be higher to the current planned way of refunding those skills. I remember when I decided to train those learning skills. It took ages. It was boring and a real bet on the future and my will to play this game on the long term. I think that we can talk about it as "trust" and a real investment which should be compensated much more than what you DEVs @ CCCP have planned to do at this moment. You, Mr. Greyscale and/or Mr. Zul· said in your official blog that "We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice." You don't have to worry about not punishing us, you have to worry about rewarding our trust on you while making those long-term decisions and at least compensate us with the actual TIME spent and invested (training boring stuff even and not cool ships or whatever) not with a mere (and poor) number of skill points. Think more about it please. And don't joke about the Christmas present because it's hard to see this as a present. At least wrap it all with a nice gift paper and a ribbon ffs. Thank you. Regards, A.
Shadow Nebulae	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:18:00 - [2] Your stuff, please?
Aphser Amarr Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:20:00 - [3] Originally by: Shadow Nebulae Your stuff, please? Too late, hauled it already off with my Tiger II, back into your loltraktor, nub!
Muul Udonii Minmatar THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:20:00 - [4] It's answered in the Dev Blog. By clever things called Graphs. If you don't understand them, you're not going to understand anyone who tries to explain it in words.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:21:00 - [5] CAN HAS UR STUFF NOOB
Zeuth Proxy Caldari Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:21:00 - [6] Considering that would a royal PITA on CCPs part to factor in everyones attribute placement at the time of training learning skills. The way they are doing it is fine and tbh other then bitter vets who believe that just because they had to go through it everyone else does the general consensus is positive to the fairness of it. What your asking for is too complicated and would take to much time+effort on CCPS part and you wont honestly gain that much more. Be happy they are even doing this. There are alot of skills that are no longer in game and that are worthless that where never reimbursed.
Major Failsauce Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.11.25 18:28:00 - [7] if you want "time" for christmas wish for a clock.
Shtirlec Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:01:00 - [8] Actually, he is completely right. Since you trained learning skills faster as you trained them more... Think of it as an x^2 graph. The more points you put in, the faster you train. So the skill points don't actually represent the time you put into the training of Learning skills. Say you have 2m SP in learning, and you spent a month training those skills. With the removal of learning skills for example you will be able to train 2.5m SP in that month... Which means that players that originally trained those learning skills will be left in the dust while newer players will benefit. Me no like....
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:07:00 - [9] Yes, things are changing and it would have been better for you if they had been like this years ago. It happens. Too bad. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Sinister Dextor	Posted - 2010.11.25 19:55:00 - [10] What you are forgetting is that those learning sklllis have saved you a lot of TIME on other skills.

Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Aphser Originally by: Shadow Nebulae Your stuff, please? Too late, hauled it already off with my Tiger II, back into your loltraktor, nub! Pure Win reply, though probably lost on most. I am for one am glad that there are other games I can play while I wait the 18 or so months till they fix EVE. Campinovka here I come! ;)
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2010.11.25 22:16:00 - [12] The OP is 100% correct in all regards. Will CCP take this into account? Unlikely. The dev blog as much as said "it's too hard and we don't want to spend the time to do it". My characters have 5,376,000 skill points invested in learning skills. That training was done without boosts of any kind. No 100% boost. No cerebral acceleration for 30 days from purchase of a special box set of EVE.....Oooo......look at that.......Officers set coming this Christmas. Got to be a coincidence, right? Training Learning Skills was a strategic decision. Newbs whine that it's too hard and they don't want to spend the time doing it. CCP apparently agrees. CCP also apparently has calculated that the impact will not be that great to their business model. Is this because too few veterans remain after all the other crap they've pulled? And is it a coincidence they made this announcement on the US holiday of thanksgiving? Perhaps to dilute the ground swell of a manure storm? December 14th. Not too far away. I can wait and see how this is finally implemented and maybe give CCP a "present" too. Of the same type they're saying they're giving me. Regards, Windjammer
KurnKuku	Posted - 2010.11.25 22:28:00 - [13] Edited by: KurnKuku on 25/11/2010 22:29:49 Originally by: Windjammer The OP is 100% correct in all regards. Will CCP take this into account? Unlikely. The dev blog as much as said "it's too hard and we don't want to spend the time to do it". My characters have 5,376,000 skill points invested in learning skills. That training was done without boosts of any kind. No 100% boost. No cerebral acceleration for 30 days from purchase of a special box set of EVE.....Oooo......look at that.......Officers set coming this Christmas. Got to be a coincidence, right? Training Learning Skills was a strategic decision. Newbs whine that it's too hard and they don't want to spend the time doing it. CCP apparently agrees. CCP also apparently has calculated that the impact will not be that great to their business model. Is this because too few veterans remain after all the other crap they've pulled? And is it a coincidence they made this announcement on the US holiday of thanksgiving? Perhaps to dilute the ground swell of a manure storm? December 14th. Not too far away. I can wait and see how this is finally implemented and maybe give CCP a "present" too. Of the same type they're saying they're giving me. Regards, Windjammer So what you are really saying is "I had to spend the time training all those boring skills, and therefore, despite the fact this change will not affect me, other people should also have to train the boring slow ass non game contributing skills, because I had to."?
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2010.11.25 23:28:00 - [14] Originally by: KurnKuku Edited by: KurnKuku on 25/11/2010 22:29:49 Originally by: Windjammer The OP is 100% correct in all regards. Will CCP take this into account? Unlikely. The dev blog as much as said "it's too hard and we don't want to spend the time to do it". My characters have 5,376,000 skill points invested in learning skills. That training was done without boosts of any kind. No 100% boost. No cerebral acceleration for 30 days from purchase of a special box set of EVE.....Oooo......look at that.......Officers set coming this Christmas. Got to be a coincidence, right? Training Learning Skills was a strategic decision. Newbs whine that it's too hard and they don't want to spend the time doing it. CCP apparently agrees. CCP also apparently has calculated that the impact will not be that great to their business model. Is this because too few veterans remain after all the other crap they've pulled? And is it a coincidence they made this announcement on the US holiday of thanksgiving? Perhaps to dilute the ground swell of a manure storm? December 14th. Not too far away. I can wait and see how this is finally implemented and maybe give CCP a "present" too. Of the same type they're saying they're giving me. Regards, Windjammer So what you are really saying is "I had to spend the time training all those boring skills, and therefore, despite the fact this change will not affect me, other people should also have to train the boring slow ass non game contributing skills, because I had to."? Not exactly. Do I think that newbs should HTFU and stop whining about how long it takes them to train? Yes. It's a level playing field as things now stand. You can decide not to train learning skills or you can decide to train them. It depends upon your level of discipline and your game plan. Failing that, if CCP is going to correct what they seem to think was a mistake, they should compensate those who invested in learning skills fully. Not this partial repayment. Full payment wouldn't be difficult to approximate. All they'd have to do would be to draw up a schedule of incremental repayment. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be considerably better than what they are doing, which is slapping those of us in the face who believed they'd stick to what they said they were going to do. Will this philosophy of CCP's eventually get around to sticking it to you? Oh, heck, yes. Train somehthing up to give yourself an advantage. Anything at all. Then watch as they get around to making it mean less and less as they change the skill necessary to achieve the same result. Take for instance the level 5 Carrier skill. Finally, do you rhink the majority of the CSM approve of this change? I don't. The meetings I saw, while still paying attention to them, indicated the majority were against removing learning skills. This isn't the first time CCP Zulu, or Zulupark or whatever he changes his name to, has made a bone head decision or suggestion and it won't be the last. AT least this time they didn't let the moron post his own load. He has a distinct talent at making everything he touches a lot worse. One of the stupidest things CCP ever did was let this guy out of quality control. The second stupidest was not putting him back. -Windjammer
Nyrak	Posted - 2010.11.25 23:46:00 - [15] I began this game at the beginning of this year. Reading previous posts, I trained the learning skills while doing little odds and ends throughout the game. During these times, I watched similar aged players work their way in Hulks and spend hours upon hours mining. Since I had plans to play this game for a while, my early training of learning would eventually pay off. So now I get to move the skill points to other skills. Yet there is no way to catch up to what I now believe are macro miners making ISK from downtime to downtime. Ban them and they will be able to start right away what took me months to achieve. So much for risk and rewards in this game.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.11.25 23:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Windjammer Originally by: KurnKuku Edited by: KurnKuku on 25/11/2010 22:29:49 Originally by: Windjammer The OP is 100% correct in all regards. Will CCP take this into account? Unlikely. The dev blog as much as said "it's too hard and we don't want to spend the time to do it". My characters have 5,376,000 skill points invested in learning skills. That training was done without boosts of any kind. No 100% boost. No cerebral acceleration for 30 days from purchase of a special box set of EVE.....Oooo......look at that.......Officers set coming this Christmas. Got to be a coincidence, right? Training Learning Skills was a strategic decision. Newbs whine that it's too hard and they don't want to spend the time doing it. CCP apparently agrees. CCP also apparently has calculated that the impact will not be that great to their business model. Is this because too few veterans remain after all the other crap they've pulled? And is it a coincidence they made this announcement on the US holiday of thanksgiving? Perhaps to dilute the ground swell of a manure storm? December 14th. Not too far away. I can wait and see how this is finally implemented and maybe give CCP a "present" too. Of the same type they're saying they're giving me. Regards, Windjammer So what you are really saying is "I had to spend the time training all those boring skills, and therefore, despite the fact this change will not affect me, other people should also have to train the boring slow ass non game contributing skills, because I had to."? Not exactly. Do I think that newbs should HTFU and stop whining about how long it takes them to train? Yes. It's a level playing field as things now stand. You can decide not to train learning skills or you can decide to train them. It depends upon your level of discipline and your game plan. Failing that, if CCP is going to correct what they seem to think was a mistake, they should compensate those who invested in learning skills fully. Not this partial repayment. Full payment wouldn't be difficult to approximate. All they'd have to do would be to draw up a schedule of incremental repayment. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be considerably better than what they are doing, which is slapping those of us in the face who believed they'd stick to what they said they were going to do. Will this philosophy of CCP's eventually get around to sticking it to you? Oh, heck, yes. Train somehthing up to give yourself an advantage. Anything at all. Then watch as they get around to making it mean less and less as they change the skill necessary to achieve the same result. Take for instance the level 5 Carrier skill. Finally, do you rhink the majority of the CSM approve of this change? I don't. The meetings I saw, while still paying attention to them, indicated the majority were against removing learning skills. This isn't the first time CCP Zulu, or Zulupark or whatever he changes his name to, has made a bone head decision or suggestion and it won't be the last. AT least this time they didn't let the moron post his own load. He has a distinct talent at making everything he touches a lot worse. One of the stupidest things CCP ever did was let this guy out of quality control. The second stupidest was not putting him back. -Windjammer So on one hand you think "nubs should HTFU" about training them, yet on the other you whine whine whine about how ccp should "compensate you properly" ? How about everybody HTFU, it's changing, deal with it.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.11.25 23:50:00 - [17] Originally by: KurnKuku So what you are really saying is "I had to spend the time training all those boring skills, and therefore, despite the fact this change will not affect me, other people should also have to train the boring slow ass non game contributing skills, because I had to."? Yes thats exactly right.This isnt a fps, its a online role playing game where the time and work to build up your character is all that counts.In other games this means who ever plays most to lvl up..is the strongest,or could be.In eve you can only wait.Either way while you pay to wait people now are paying and waiting less with each expansion. This being a long term online game it should be fair and it isnt by far.They change things up all the time and the oldest players suffer under fail game design.Even when I started back in the days a friend said wow,I wish I had got that many points,so I can imagine how players older than me feel. Example:Oh heres a new feature called remaps...new players get two while old players get one.Yeah cool..thats sounds fair.And its only one example from many Im too lazy to go in on.
Boinz Caldari Muffin Munchers	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Nyrak I began this game at the beginning of this year. Reading previous posts, I trained the learning skills while doing little odds and ends throughout the game. During these times, I watched similar aged players work their way in Hulks and spend hours upon hours mining. Since I had plans to play this game for a while, my early training of learning would eventually pay off. So now I get to move the skill points to other skills. Yet there is no way to catch up to what I now believe are macro miners making ISK from downtime to downtime. Ban them and they will be able to start right away what took me months to achieve. So much for risk and rewards in this game. look at it this way, you have a more efficient SP/hour, more sp, and free sp to move around as you wish :D Originally by: Blane Xero Sorry, what?
Kerfira Kerfira Corp	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:03:00 - [19] Edited by: Kerfira on 26/11/2010 00:04:47 A lot of people need to have this played for them.... Worlds Smallest Violin Especially the guy who'll be getting 5+m FREE SP on the 14th, and STILL want more... You REALLY are sad! Edit: I've got 4 accounts, and the mains all got 3 or 4 of the advanced learning skills to 5 (trained recently too). I'll not comment on the decision to remove the learning skills (though I'm probably more positive than negative on that), but the WAY CCP has done it is top-notch! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:09:00 - [20] Don't misunderstand me Im all for removing learning,just against older players getting ***ked in the process.Like with the remaps.I have yet to see a good reason for that.

Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:18:00 - [21] Everyone complaining is a fool, this is a really good thing. If you already trained your learning skills you will get XYZ SP to assign however, and your future training will be at absolute worst the exact same as a new player. Does that sound unfair eh?
Kerfira Kerfira Corp	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:23:00 - [22] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Don't misunderstand me Im all for removing learning,just against older players getting *ked in the process.Like with the remaps.I have yet to see a good reason for that. Getting 'ked' would be no reimbursement (which would be decently fair since you've already had the benefits)... Get some perspective... You will have: 1. At least as good learning speed as before. 2. X extra SP to spend as you wish. Please point out where you're worse off??? Originally by:* CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:28:00 - [23] Actually I'm pretty pleased. After this my training will speed up, since I never bothered maxing out my learning skills. I don't agree with taking the skills out, but I really can't complain with how they're doing it. --Vel
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: HeIIfire11 Don't misunderstand me Im all for removing learning,just against older players getting *ked in the process.Like with the remaps.I have yet to see a good reason for that. Getting '*ked' would be no reimbursement (which would be decently fair since you've already had the benefits)... Get some perspective... You will have: 1. At least as good learning speed as before. 2. X extra SP to spend as you wish. Please point out where you're worse off??? Like I said Im all for this one but I sure could use a second remap.Not only that but I would have loved to be in a drake after a week,bought with my brand new plex I just sold But I was speaking in general,this change doesnt bother me really,although I understand the op's pont of view.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:31:00 - [25] Indeed. As someone who has trained over a dozen characters to have 5/4 or 5/5 learning I am quite happy with how CCP is handling this. The complaints are pretty nitpicky considering that the current solution is quite good. ______________________________
Father Failboat	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:53:00 - [26] i just started playing a couple weeks ago and was told by a friend if i could get the learning skills out of the way it would pay off in the long run, but would suck early on. I was fine with this because i figured i would be playing for quite a while.. now it just seems i could have had a lot more fun in the past couple weeks if i hadnt trained those skills.. it just seems that i lost out on almost a full month
KaarBaak Minmatar Seatec Astronomy	Posted - 2010.11.26 01:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Father Failboat i just started playing a couple weeks ago and was told by a friend if i could get the learning skills out of the way it would pay off in the long run, but would suck early on. I was fine with this because i figured i would be playing for quite a while.. now it just seems i could have had a lot more fun in the past couple weeks if i hadnt trained those skills.. it just seems that i lost out on almost a full month You recieved and followed bad advice. Plenty of people point out that sitting out of the game and training learning skills for a month is not the correct method of training. Your friend fails at Eve, and is trying to make you fail at Eve. I would recommend not following any more of his/her bad advice. KB KB Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
Vertisce Soritenshi O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.26 02:09:00 - [28] I suppose at this point I could be considered a "vet" since I am at 40 mil SP and over 5 mil of that is in my Learning skills. I maxed mine out. And you know what? I love this change and can't wait for it. Why? Thats 5 mil SP that I get to just throw wherever I want. That can go a long freaking way for me right now. I don't give a damn if a bunch of newbies are able to train faster. I still have my time played on my side. I still have more skills. And I welcome more players for PvP and fun times to be had for all.
tatt2ed4u	Posted - 2010.11.26 02:12:00 - [29] This will be great for the one starter toon I was making. I can sell him with 3.3 million SP that the buyer can remap where they want! Thanks CCP. To bad I only had one in the making Please call me next time and tell me your plans
Evilan Altana Moriar Libera	Posted - 2010.11.26 02:34:00 - [30] Having trained multiple accounts to 5/5 over the years I am glad learning skills are being removed. While the amount of time to train the skills to the current level takes longer than the SP being reimbursed, this is the best possible outcome that could be expected with the removal of learning skills. I can apply the SP directly to skills that I want to train that I don't want to remap to because they are limited in number. I support the banishing of the learning skills and the awarding of my SP to apply directly to "destroying other peoples stuff" skills.



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