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How does "Concord agro" actually work?

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Conrad Makbure Gallente Teutonic Brotherhood	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:24:00 - [1] In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. Griefer kills drones and destroyes corp mates retriever. Concord does not come. When does Concord actually come into it? It seems like they don't do anything, also, why don't pirates just come out of nullsec and just attack people in highsec (who'd be easy targets since most have low sp's)? When does Concord actually show up. -Makbure

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:31:00 - [2] If you attack the theif, you get flagged so he can shoot you without concord showing up. /c Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Conrad Makbure Gallente Teutonic Brotherhood	Posted - 2010.11.25 20:42:00 - [3] Ok, but when would Concord actually show up in an AB. -Makbure
Willmahh	Posted - 2010.11.25 21:21:00 - [4] Originally by: Conrad Makbure Ok, but when would Concord actually show up in an AB. when someone commits an act of theivery on you ( flips your can, or loots your wreck) you have 15 minutes to attack them freely. if you do not fire back at all, or take your stuff back, HE CANT SHOOT YOU. if he does, Concord will show up immediately (relatively speaking) if you, or your drones attack him, that means consetual PVP and Concord will not get involved (unless someone is podded).
Nicol Nicculon	Posted - 2010.11.25 21:53:00 - [5] Edited by: Nicol Nicculon on 25/11/2010 21:54:17 Yes, I was a victim of this Newb Abuse last week - I was happily mining with my Navitas in a starting system, moved the ore into a can and after I had 3000 m3, I warped back to get my Iterion. Upon return, I just saw a guy in a strange ship taking my can and he got a red skull. My white can changed to a yellow one. I was so angry I went back to my station and returned with my Destroyer / Catalyst.... as you might guess, BAD IDEA. I attacked him and first thing he did was warp-scrambling me. I lost not only my can, but also my Catalyst with all equipment. Some of the lessons I learnt were: - If you do nothing, the only thing you loose is the can, not your ship (as long as you don't attack) or he will get CONCORDOKKEN! - You have to equip your ship optimally.... (how this is done, I have of course no idea). (Did I mention that his ship was a frigate?) and have a decent set of appropriate skills. - People coming to a starting system robbing newbs have no honour - don't expect them to 'play fair' .... they are not necessarily evil, some are maybe just 'bored' and want to 'show them newbs a lesson' - Two days later, another thief took my stuff. He then told me that it was an error so I can take the stuff back (however, he didn't abandon his can)... well, I wasn't as dumb this time.... lols. Kind regards, Nicol PS: The story with the one that destroyed my destroyer continues: After my initial shock of being podded, I went to the system chat and told everyone that a xy was canflipping in a newb system and all newbs should beware and that this guy must have no honour. I further told everyone that this guy must be a real hero among his friends, telling them of robbing from poor newbs must give them full awe and a high standing, instead of testing his mettle against similarly advanced players. Soon he started to write back and in the end, he told me to stop whining and he handed me an amount 10 times higher than what I lost in this evening - I was of course flabbergasted. He told me that people whine then complain, while instead they should accept it as a part of the game and learn how to deal with it with a smile on the face. In the end, I have learnt a lot (e.g. NEVER EVER fly a ship you won't want to risk to loose), learnt that I need to know how to equip a ship (still don't know that much more on that) and, most importantly, I learnt to either quit gaming EVE or enjoy this aspect.
Sporked	Posted - 2010.11.26 00:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Conrad Makbure In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. Griefer kills drones and destroyes corp mates retriever. Concord does not come. When does Concord actually come into it? It seems like they don't do anything, also, why don't pirates just come out of nullsec and just attack people in highsec (who'd be easy targets since most have low sp's)? When does Concord actually show up. 1. CONCORD provide consequences not protection. If someone attacks you in Hisec without some form of aggro rights then they will get exploded in the face, other than that everything is fair game. 2. Griefing as applied to other games does not apply to EVE. Being a general bastid is expected behaviour. Also, if you mine into a jetcan it's not stealing, I mean if you found something that had obviously been thrown away I doubt anyone would call you a thief for taking it. Now if they got the password for your secure cans or took it from your corp hangar then that would be stealing :3 3. I'm not sure about your idea of piratism and/or nullsec as you'll find most of that in lowsec tbh. Nullsec is largely NBSI home defence gang style stuff.
Merouk Baas Gallente	Posted - 2010.11.26 03:28:00 - [7] Concord appears if you get attacked for no reason. "Attacked" includes anything that does damage to you, or ewar/jamming, or any other harmful effects. Reasons where Concord won't show up include: - if you're "defending yourself" - someone has shot at you, and you are shooting back. - if you've stolen from someone's can and they are now shooting you. - if you're in a corp war. - if you're in low-sec or null-sec. The average ore thief isn't looking for ore, he/she is looking for a fight. They will steal your ore (or your mission container) and thus get flagged. YOU can shoot them if you wish, without CONCORD interference, but if you do that, they can "defend themselves" and shoot back. Typically, they either run away and bring a bigger ship, or they have a ship that's fitted specifically to take mining vessels out.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2010.11.26 08:01:00 - [8] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 26/11/2010 08:01:43 You could see it in this way: CONCORD deems theft a lesser crime than assault. Thus, when subject to theft, CONCORD allows you to make justice for yourself, but won't get involved. When you are assaulted it WILL intervene directly. Besides of the lesson that EVE is harsh mistress, there are also some operative lessons to be learned here. First one is to always set your drones to passive if you are in highsec. NEVER have your drones do something you don't want to, that might be bad. Second lesson is that jetcan mining is RISKY. It's faster than normal mining but even if you don't attack the thief you risk losing all your mined mineral. Finally keep in mind that while some noob griefer might do that to feel 1337, I believe that some can flippers are just veterans who want to teach noobs the hard way (i.e., in EVE it's probably the best way, you have to experiment being blown up to learn to cope with it).
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.11.26 10:36:00 - [9] Alos notice that can baiting in starter systems is a bannable offence, so if you happened to get flipped in starter system file in a petition ... http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Alexander Third Gallente Crystal Industries	Posted - 2010.11.26 13:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Conrad Makbure Ok, but when would Concord actually show up in an AB. unfortunately if someone takes your stuff the only thing you can do is a. watch, or b. shoot at the pirate and hope for an easy pop. don't destroy the pod though or concord will kill you. You may want to get corp mates to keep a watch for red shots in a BS so if they come by they can blow them up. (thieves are flagged to corpmates too. This has happened to me multiple times. I just eventually decided not to jet can anymore. too many thieves that were too lazy to mine their own rocks. I hate thieves.
Willmahh	Posted - 2010.11.26 14:15:00 - [11] And just to add to this thread: Jet canning is ASKING FOR IT. if you dump your stuff into space, expect rats to take it. If you have to Jetcan, use secure containers.
Medarr Amarr	Posted - 2010.11.26 15:23:00 - [12] Edited by: Medarr on 26/11/2010 15:25:06 Originally by: Baneken Alos notice that can baiting in starter systems is a bannable offence, so if you happened to get flipped in starter system file in a petition ... Wrong Can baiting = dropping yellow cans labeled as " freestuff " the intent is to lure newbies into stealing from you wich flags them. ( not allowed in starter systems ) Can flipping = Stealing from a newb in order to provoke an agressive responce wich gets the newb flagged for pvp. ( allowed in starter systems )
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.11.26 15:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Medarr Edited by: Medarr on 26/11/2010 15:25:06 Originally by: Baneken Alos notice that can baiting in starter systems is a bannable offence, so if you happened to get flipped in starter system file in a petition ... Wrong Can baiting = dropping yellow cans labeled as " freestuff " the intent is to lure newbies into stealing from you wich flags them. ( not allowed in starter systems ) Can flipping = Stealing from a newb in order to provoke an agressive responce wich gets the newb flagged for pvp. ( allowed in starter systems ) No they aren't that's the point of starter systems, plenty of nublets for your leet skills in 0.9 systems. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.26 20:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Conrad Makbure In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. This NEVER happens. The thief turns red (outlaw) to you. You have the OPTION of retaliating. Drones WILL NOT ATTACK unless they are explicitly told to! You have the OPTION to attack. Drones will never auto-agro and take that option away from you. I've tested this, as the topic keeps coming up.
Kezzle	Posted - 2010.11.26 20:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Sporked Also, if you mine into a jetcan it's not stealing, I mean if you found something that had obviously been thrown away I doubt anyone would call you a thief for taking it. Except that the aggro system does consider it t'eefin', and flags the container-content-taker (whether it be jetissoned ore or uncollected wreck-loot) attackable without Conord Consequence.
Dian'h Might Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated	Posted - 2010.11.28 19:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Kezzle Except that the aggro system does consider it t'eefin', and flags the container-content-taker (whether it be jetissoned ore or uncollected wreck-loot) attackable without Conord Consequence. Before I started playing, taking from containers used to not flag anyone. They were originally intended as a way to dispose of unwanted items in space, not mining. From what I've always heard on the forums, the agro mechanic was changed to flag the "thief" after a lot of outcry from miners who wanted to have a chance to kill the person who ran off with their ore. - - - Dian'h Might - C&Ps resident "internet kleptomaniac"
Mal Lokrano Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.29 03:46:00 - [17] Edited by: Mal Lokrano on 29/11/2010 03:46:52 Originally by: Willmahh take your stuff back, HE CANT SHOOT YOU. if he does, Concord will show up immediately (relatively speaking) This is misleading. If he takes your ore and puts it in his own can and you take it back, it is considered stealing. So if you took ore from a can "owned" by the thief, you would be aggroed to him and thus you are completely shootable regardless if you shoot at him. _____ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. Your friendly neighborhood pod liberator.
Willmahh	Posted - 2010.11.29 18:06:00 - [18] Edited by: Willmahh on 29/11/2010 18:08:28 Edited by: Willmahh on 29/11/2010 18:07:31 Originally by: Mal Lokrano Edited by: Mal Lokrano on 29/11/2010 03:46:52 Originally by: Willmahh take your stuff back, HE CANT SHOOT YOU. if he does, Concord will show up immediately (relatively speaking) This is misleading. If he takes your ore and puts it in his own can and you take it back, it is considered stealing. So if you took ore from a can "owned" by the thief, you would be aggroed to him and thus you are completely shootable regardless if you shoot at him. Dude... i said, "if you do not fire back at all, or [Implied](do not) take your stuff back, HE CANT SHOOT YOU."
Chiana Moro Dark Shadow Industries Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.11.30 11:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Chiana Moro on 30/11/2010 11:35:35 .
Dodgy Past Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.11.30 12:19:00 - [20] Edited by: Dodgy Past on 30/11/2010 12:22:50 Originally by: Nicol Nicculon Edited by: Nicol Nicculon on 25/11/2010 21:54:17 Yes, I was a victim of this Newb Abuse last week - I was happily mining with my Navitas in a starting system, moved the ore into a can and after I had 3000 m3, I warped back to get my Iterion. Upon return, I just saw a guy in a strange ship taking my can and he got a red skull. My white can changed to a yellow one. I was so angry I went back to my station and returned with my Destroyer / Catalyst.... as you might guess, BAD IDEA. I attacked him and first thing he did was warp-scrambling me. I lost not only my can, but also my Catalyst with all equipment. Some of the lessons I learnt were: - If you do nothing, the only thing you loose is the can, not your ship (as long as you don't attack) or he will get CONCORDOKKEN! - You have to equip your ship optimally.... (how this is done, I have of course no idea). (Did I mention that his ship was a frigate?) and have a decent set of appropriate skills. - People coming to a starting system robbing newbs have no honour - don't expect them to 'play fair' .... they are not necessarily evil, some are maybe just 'bored' and want to 'show them newbs a lesson' - Two days later, another thief took my stuff. He then told me that it was an error so I can take the stuff back (however, he didn't abandon his can)... well, I wasn't as dumb this time.... lols. Kind regards, Nicol PS: The story with the one that destroyed my destroyer continues: After my initial shock of being podded, I went to the system chat and told everyone that a xy was canflipping in a newb system and all newbs should beware and that this guy must have no honour. I further told everyone that this guy must be a real hero among his friends, telling them of robbing from poor newbs must give them full awe and a high standing, instead of testing his mettle against similarly advanced players. Soon he started to write back and in the end, he told me to stop whining and he handed me an amount 10 times higher than what I lost in this evening - I was of course flabbergasted. He told me that people whine then complain, while instead they should accept it as a part of the game and learn how to deal with it with a smile on the face. In the end, I have learnt a lot (e.g. NEVER EVER fly a ship you won't want to risk to loose), learnt that I need to know how to equip a ship (still don't know that much more on that) and, most importantly, I learnt to either quit gaming EVE or enjoy this aspect. Were you actually in a proper starter system ( tutorial agents etc. )? If so then he isn't allowed to pull these kind of tricks there and can be petitionned for it. Originally by: Tau Cabalander Originally by: Conrad Makbure In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. This NEVER happens. The thief turns red (outlaw) to you. You have the OPTION of retaliating. Drones WILL NOT ATTACK unless they are explicitly told to! You have the OPTION to attack. Drones will never auto-agro and take that option away from you. I've tested this, as the topic keeps coming up. You are wrong and passing very dangerous misinformation in New Citizens. If you're drones are set to aggressive they can auto attack. This is important for both people who mine ( 'fraid you can't afk and rely on your drones to tank for you ) and also for mission runners who have loot 'ninjas' turn up. ( don't mission in expensive boats with drones set to auto aggress ).
Mazerum GANK STARZ	Posted - 2010.12.01 19:53:00 - [21] So I think a good question to the OP is what is a newer pilot ô(who'd be easy targets since most have low sp's)ö doing in a Navy Mega? Trying to grief? Hhmmm? proof
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.12.02 03:33:00 - [22] 1) Starter Systems - are those systems where your characters first appear after being created. They do NOT include the systems the Career Agents are in. 2) Being podded - means having your pod destroyed - not ending up in your pod. 3) Jet Can Mining is taking a chance, however there are some things that are riskier than others. a) Jet Can Mining solo in an asteroid belt in a busy system is very risky. b) Jet Can Mining solo in an asteroid belt in a quiet system is much less risky. c) Jet Can Mining with a hauler in an asteroid belt where the jet can is kept open by a bookmark and no ore is left in the can - in a quiet system - is relatively safe as long as you are alert. If someone does come into your belt - do a Look at them and move your POV around to their stern so you can see where they are going. If they are going for your can - pull the bookmark and pop the can. They will see that you are alert - and go bother someone else. Here - it is important that you have an overview that is not cluttered with asteroids - so have at least two tabs - one with asteroids and one without - so that you can see immediately if someone comes into your belt. This also helps you pick up the rats sooner so your miner can pull in his mining drones and put out his combat drones. d) Jet Can Mining in Mission Space, in a quiet system - that does NOT have any Level IV Agents in it - is very safe. Your chances of someone coming into a quiet system and scanning you down with probes just so they may can flip you ... is fairly slim. If on the other hand - you have Battleships on your dScan running Level IV Missions - these attract Ninja Salvagers - who do use scanning probes to find these Battleships. If they don't find any Battleships - but they do find you ... then they might just come along to harass you. e) How to use Giant Secure Container & Jet Cans - this is a link I wrote on the above as well as using GSC's. 4) NEVER, NEVER, NEVER take on another player who is likely to be PVP fit - if you are not. If you want to take them on - put a Warp Scrambler and a Webbifier on your ship. If you can't do that - don't waste your time (not to mention the ship you will lose) as they are pretty much certain to blow you up. THE classic EVE PVP tactic - is to scramble/disrupt someone, then web them (in THAT ORDER) - then orbit them so fast their guns can't track you - at which point they are pretty much doomed if they can't do the same thing. You don't actually have to scramble them - it's just that you probably won't kill them unless you do. If you are running missions or mining - and someone steals some of your loot or flips one of your cans - if you want to fight them - go get in a PVP equipped ship FIRST - then fight them. Now ... guess how I know that ... 5) Drone mechanics are whippy ... you can't really count on them to behave the same way twice in a row. Murphy's Law of Drones: If you are counting on your drones automatically attacking - they won't do it BUT if you are counting on your drones NOT attacking - guess what - they will. Now - that said - you can set them to Aggressive (if you want them to auto attack) or Passive (if you don't) but leaving drones out on their own to do whatever it is that comes into their little AI Minds ... can lead to disappointing results ... If you are in a belt - mining - leave your drones in the drone bay set to Passive - until you want them to kill something. Then when that something comes along - Launch them, Target the thing you want to attack and tell the drones to Engage Target. That usually works - but watch them to make sure they really do. Then - when you are done - tell them to Return to Drone Bay - and make sure they really do it. Look at your Drones in Space and make sure it says 0 before you warp off. Do NOT trust the little ****s to do what YOU think they are supposed to do. . Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Willmahh	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:07:00 - [23] Edited by: Willmahh on 02/12/2010 14:07:55 I would also like to point out that, in my experience, 8 out of 10 can flips result in a much larger ship appearing shortly after the miner agroed the rifter. They work in teams with the little "i can take em" ship as bait. Remember, it only takes a second for this guy to bring in a fleet, and he'll be webbing/scramming you the whole time to make sure you're there for it.
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Originally by: Conrad Makbure In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. This NEVER happens. The thief turns red (outlaw) to you. You have the OPTION of retaliating. Drones WILL NOT ATTACK unless they are explicitly told to! You have the OPTION to attack. Drones will never auto-agro and take that option away from you. I've tested this, as the topic keeps coming up. Tau is right. Drones on aggressive will NOT atttack can flippers or loot thieves! I guess the OP's friend clicked on the "attack" button by accident ...
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Tau Cabalander Originally by: Conrad Makbure In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. This NEVER happens. The thief turns red (outlaw) to you. You have the OPTION of retaliating. Drones WILL NOT ATTACK unless they are explicitly told to! You have the OPTION to attack. Drones will never auto-agro and take that option away from you. I've tested this, as the topic keeps coming up. Tau is right. Drones on aggressive will NOT atttack can flippers or loot thieves! I guess the OP's friend clicked on the "attack" button by accident ... Now ... my experience with drones has mostly been limited to missioning and I take the measures I've listed above to prevent becoming vulnerable to odd drone behavior - so when considering specifically the issue of Can Flippers - I have made sure I don't have such experiences. My questions here, given my own experience with drone inconsistency, would be: 1) Exactly - what did Tau do for his test? Was this a specific can flipping test? 2) How many times did he test this and were his results consistent over a dozen or more tests? 3) Did he test this with multiple different characters - or just two (i.e. one pair of flipper & victim)? 4) Why is it that it is much more often reported that drones WILL attack a can flipper if they are set to Aggressive? 5) Has there been a change in drone behavior programming that would account for the different perspectives on this issue? If so - when? Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Mal Lokrano Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.02 21:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Willmahh Dude... i said, "if you do not fire back at all, or [Implied](do not) take your stuff back, HE CANT SHOOT YOU." I was just pointing out that the way the sentence was structured could lead someone to believe that taking their stuff back was legal. By saying, "if you do not fire back at all, or take your stuff" makes it sound as though not firing or taking your stuff back will result in them not being able to shoot you, which is misleading. The comma gives the impression, just saying... I am not trying to be mean I am just making sure people fully understand aggro mechanics so we won't get 50 posts of new players whining (although that will happen anyway). _____ When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. Your friendly neighborhood pod liberator.
Starnap Concentrated Evil	Posted - 2010.12.03 12:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Tau Cabalander Originally by: Conrad Makbure In regards to encounters in highsec asteroid belts with can thiefs. Corp mate was in some .8 AB mining in a retriever with drones out. Griefer (not red) comes and takes/flips a can, turns red. Corp mate tells me that the drones must have auto engaged once he turned red. This NEVER happens. The thief turns red (outlaw) to you. You have the OPTION of retaliating. Drones WILL NOT ATTACK unless they are explicitly told to! You have the OPTION to attack. Drones will never auto-agro and take that option away from you. I've tested this, as the topic keeps coming up. Tau is right. Drones on aggressive will NOT atttack can flippers or loot thieves! I guess the OP's friend clicked on the "attack" button by accident ... Now ... my experience with drones has mostly been limited to missioning and I take the measures I've listed above to prevent becoming vulnerable to odd drone behavior - so when considering specifically the issue of Can Flippers - I have made sure I don't have such experiences. My questions here, given my own experience with drone inconsistency, would be: 1) Exactly - what did Tau do for his test? Was this a specific can flipping test? 2) How many times did he test this and were his results consistent over a dozen or more tests? 3) Did he test this with multiple different characters - or just two (i.e. one pair of flipper & victim)? 4) Why is it that it is much more often reported that drones WILL attack a can flipper if they are set to Aggressive? 5) Has there been a change in drone behavior programming that would account for the different perspectives on this issue? If so - when? I do a LOT of can-flipping, and have invaded people's missions on occasion also. I have never been attacked by drones due to them being set to aggressive. They might attack someone who was actually shooting at the owner, but I don't think they will attack someone who has not actually aggressed him. The situation described most likely happened due to a 'feature' where both players try to take ore from the miner's can at the same time - sometimes EVE gets a bit confused as to the order in which the 'takes' happen, and the miner can end up red to the can-flipper. That has happened to me a few times

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