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Bezerk'ah Vulkan
The Ressabiators
15
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Posted - 2012.08.09 21:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Probably it has been said...but here it goes again.
One of the main problems now with FW is the power that noob alt farmers, from ppl that aren't even concerned with the militia for who they are plexing for, have in the warzone.
One thing that must be done is...VULNERABLE SYSTEMS DO NOT GIVE LP FOR PLEXING AFTER THAT STATE! it should work just as defensive plexing is right now.
I'll give an example, right now, with the Nulli alliance is putting every minmatar systems to vulnerable state, they are holding them, for when time comes ( enough systems to reach T5 ) take them all down, and cash the LPs...untill then we will have an entire warzone crashed, with systems vulnerable and available to be plexed for LPs to infinity and beyond! Now this wouldn't hurt so much if the Amarr really take action as soon as it reaches the desirable number of systems...but...what if they don't?
As i see it, right now there isn't out there many ways of making easy ISK as FW is giving now...so it is pretty clear to me and to anyone with half a brain that something is going to be done to fix it, and that should be in the winter expansion...untill then we have this fountain of ISK...so why take those systems, if you can plex them when they are vulnerable, and actually making them even more vulnerable ( that you never now if they are 105% or 500% so no one bothers to try dplex them ).
If Nulli is smart, they can keep the Minmatar/Amarr warzone the way it is for the entire summer make trillions of LPs, and as soon as patch note comes out with some changes to FW, then make the move before it hits...this will put an entire warzone broken for months, and you couldn't blame them...cause it's the smart thing to do! the only counter to this is if the Minmatar form a Amarr corp just to take the systems for the enemy ( weird isn't it ).
IF vulnerable systems stop giving LPs not only we will see a winning side having to eventually make the ihub bash, cause of no more systems to plex for LP, but ALSO, it will make that the farmers that are here only for the LPs go plex in more violent and enemy home systems, actually helping the militia even if they dont give a f.u.ck....just because they don't have those vulnerable back systems where they still work on.
Bez |
Kalicor Lightwind
Vigihan
Zombie Ninja Space Bears
26
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Posted - 2012.08.10 02:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is a very popular idea and one I also support.
Additionally, it's not wise to avoid the obscenity filter. It's there for a reason. :P |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
346
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 03:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
While i would like it, theres no getting away from the fact that this change would cripple whichever militia had the fewest alt plexers rather than fixing alt plexing itself. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
197
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 03:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:One of the main problems now with FW is the power that noob alt farmers, from ppl that aren't even concerned with the militia for who they are plexing for, have in the warzone.
Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:but ALSO, it will make that the farmers that are here only for the LPs go plex in more violent and enemy home systems, actually helping the militia |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness
Nulli Secunda
109
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Posted - 2012.08.10 06:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Must say i don't have the link at hand with the details.
But from what i read on a FW guide...
Once you reach vulnerable state for a system the status still goes up above 100% vulnerable (e.g. 150% vulnerable).
Which accounts for the effect that ppl think they cannot un-vulnerable a system. it's just a shitton of unrewarding work without even seeing any progress since CCP failed to implement it into the UI.
So when you defensive plex it from 150% to 149% vulnerable you might think nothing happens.
But in fact you didn't try hard enough. Do a few dozen more and you might end up with making it INvulnerable again.
At some point of the vulnerable state (200% maybe ?) i think systems will stop spawning plexes altogether.
So unless that guide was full of lies and bullshit....
HTFU and L2P |
Lexmana
675
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Posted - 2012.08.10 07:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:One of the main problems now with FW is the power that noob alt farmers, from ppl that aren't even concerned with the militia for who they are plexing for, have in the warzone. Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:but ALSO, it will make that the farmers that are here only for the LPs go plex in more violent and enemy home systems, actually helping the militia
I want to expand upon this. The problem is NOT plexing vulnerable systems. The problem is all the farmers. If the farmers go away there will be noone plexing vulnerable systems, unless there is a tactical reason to do so (buffer).
Don't treat the symptoms. Treat the cause. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid
Iron Oxide.
227
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 07:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Real Poison wrote:At some point of the vulnerable state (200% maybe ?) i think systems will stop spawning plexes altogether.
HTFU and L2P
This is not the case, you know less about FW mechanics than you do about holding sov in null. |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness
Nulli Secunda
109
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Posted - 2012.08.10 08:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
This is not the case, you know less about FW mechanics than you do about holding sov in null.
u mad?
|
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid
Iron Oxide.
227
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Posted - 2012.08.10 08:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Real Poison wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
This is not the case, you know less about FW mechanics than you do about holding sov in null.
u mad?
Not really, no. Just funny that people who have just joined FW and learnt everything they know from reading guides try and correct people who have played it for years and probably wrote some of those guides. |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
346
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:One of the main problems now with FW is the power that noob alt farmers, from ppl that aren't even concerned with the militia for who they are plexing for, have in the warzone. Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:but ALSO, it will make that the farmers that are here only for the LPs go plex in more violent and enemy home systems, actually helping the militia
Great, farmers that run away from everthing would just run away from us in home systems. All that would mean for the gallente for example is that plexing would be wall-to-wall in the 6-8 hours that each of the homes ystems have noone logged on. I dont fancy waking up to 30-40% vuln every morning.
First, NPC's should have to be killed making farming plexes a more hands on activity, Also, faction war has always been a good source of income, but i would say that the tier system has increased potential income to a broken level and is just encouraging people to place farm alts in all militias. Best example is nulli bears, and entire coorperation of 1500 ratters come to FW because there is less risk and far better income.
This wouldnt be a problem and i have zero problem with people making isk, just seems a little harsh that peoples plexing is no doubt 99% about isk and 1% about station lockouts. |
Lugalzagezi666
53
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Posted - 2012.08.10 08:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
What would really help fixing fw is making plexes not afk soloable by 150k sp alt in t1 frig. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
34
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Posted - 2012.08.10 09:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:What would really help fixing fw is making plexes not afk soloable by 150k sp alt in t1 frig.
If you need 150k sp for soloing plexes, you are doing it wrong 
|
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
189
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Posted - 2012.08.10 09:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
LP reward defending, maybe not as much than attacking but some ( does not make farming much easier, it already is really easy)
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
242
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Posted - 2012.08.10 09:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:What would really help fixing fw is making plexes not afk soloable by 150k sp alt in t1 frig.
Quoted because it's true.
As for original post;
If the aim is to stop/hinder farming and make people want to pop bunkers, the much more effective way is to make LP payout work like it does in Incursions .. only get paid when the job is done .. have the LP escrow and only pay it out on flip.
And then you have to sort the whole broken as **** WZC system that is the sole reason for the mess that is plexing currently, the idea that one is better off not flipping anything except in a sprint type way to get a few hours/minutes worth of valuable stored LP is atrocious .. boggles the mind how that ever got through playtesting .. oh wait, they didn't test or even consult FW vets before deciding on the changes (made weeks if not months prior to FF).
What I am getting at is that unless you take a long hard look at the system as a whole the turds will be present, you will merely be shifting the stink around. That is the main reason for the concept of a "localized" reward system getting so much attention recently, if WZC was made secondary (or removed outright) to system/constellation control then taking systems would have an immediate impact .. forcing a lot more fighting over plexes.
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Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
346
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Posted - 2012.08.10 09:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:If you need 150k sp for soloing plexes, you are doing it wrong
Bad Messenger wrote:LP reward defending, maybe not as much than attacking but some ( does not make farming much easier, it already is really easy)
Posting in a thread with the only 2 guys in FW that really care about station lockout. Needless to say their ideas do not lead to any sort of balance and would just reward the side with more alts plexing in half fit ships. |
Lugalzagezi666
53
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Posted - 2012.08.10 09:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:What would really help fixing fw is making plexes not afk soloable by 150k sp alt in t1 frig. If you need 150k sp for soloing plexes, you are doing it wrong
What I was trying to say was that it takes really low sp (really low isk and really low effort). I never made evemon plans for lowest sp merlin/incursus plexing alt as I actually never really cared about plexing for lp.
|
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
Caldari State Capturing
34
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Posted - 2012.08.10 09:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Posting in a thread with the only 2 guys in FW that actually know how things work.
Fixed that for you.
Also, neither of us wanted the current farmville. We warned about it and were proven right in our predictions of course. That does not mean we wont be running back and forth between the open bank vault and getaway van with "ze monies" while it's possible to do so.
As you well know, PERVS were 100% right on what would happen when FW missions were boosted and they even sent GM to Ladistier to see exactly how much LP we were farming 
In fact, it was a person from your corporation (Lock Out) who was eagerly wanting station lockouts and removing all Caldari presence from low-sec so he could have "good fights" and another person from your militia (Andreus Ixiris) opening the champagne bottles in advance celebrating the eventual conquest of all Caldari systems. How's that working out for him? |
Generals4
1021
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Posted - 2012.08.10 10:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:LP reward defending, maybe not as much than attacking but some ( does not make farming much easier, it already is really easy)
What could be a good system is defensive plexing giving the normal amount of LP multiplied by the percentage at which the system is contested. (so if it's 90% contested you'd have 10k LP * 0.9 for a minor)
This would only work if systems can't be put "deep" in vulnaribility off course otherwise defensive plex farming might actually become an issue itself.
-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Cellethen
Grim Determination
Nulli Secunda
14
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Posted - 2012.08.10 10:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Real Poison wrote:At some point of the vulnerable state (200% maybe ?) i think systems will stop spawning plexes altogether.
HTFU and L2P This is not the case, you know less about FW mechanics than you do about holding sov in null.
Way to snip the part where he said the guide might have been misleading. Your post is about as helpful and constructive as this one. |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
346
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 11:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Posting in a thread with the only 2 guys in FW that actually know how things work. Fixed that for you. Also, neither of us wanted the current farmville. We warned about it and were proven right in our predictions of course. That does not mean we wont be running back and forth between the open bank vault and getaway van with "ze monies" while it's possible to do so. As you well know, PERVS were 100% right on what would happen when FW missions were boosted and they even sent GM to Ladistier to see exactly how much LP we were farming In fact, it was a person from your corporation (Lock Out) who was eagerly wanting station lockouts and removing all Caldari presence from low-sec so he could have "good fights" and another person from your militia (Andreus Ixiris) opening the champagne bottles in advance celebrating the eventual conquest of all Caldari systems. How's that working out for him?
The way you want to change farmville will put more power into the hands of the fw side with more plexing alts. No lp for vuln, lp for defensive plexing etc. all lead to the side with few plexers locked out of a proportional number of systems relative to the ratios of PVE plexers.
Also, i dont know who the PERVS are or who the other guy is. Ive never been pro station lock-out. Stop trying to hold people accountable for things that they have never suggested lol. |
David Devant
CTRL-Q
Iron Oxide.
11
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Posted - 2012.08.10 11:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Very simple fix: Remove lp payout for plexing entirely. The incentive for occupancy then becomes tier control for mission lp payouts. Defers gratification considerably whilst keeping occupancy meaningful.
Personally I think they should scrap it all and start again, eh. |
Dan Carter Murray
56
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Posted - 2012.08.10 12:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
David Devant wrote:Very simple fix: Remove lp payout for plexing entirely. The incentive for occupancy then becomes tier control for mission lp payouts. Defers gratification considerably whilst keeping occupancy meaningful.
Personally I think they should scrap it all and start again, eh.
Nope. |
David Devant
CTRL-Q
Iron Oxide.
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 12:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Love your witty and incisive riposte dcm. What next? U mad? L2p? Please go on, this is truly a masterclass! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
528
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 15:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:One of the main problems now with FW is the power that noob alt farmers, from ppl that aren't even concerned with the militia for who they are plexing for, have in the warzone. Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:but ALSO, it will make that the farmers that are here only for the LPs go plex in more violent and enemy home systems, actually helping the militia Great, farmers that run away from everthing would just run away from us in home systems. All that would mean for the gallente for example is that plexing would be wall-to-wall in the 6-8 hours that each of the homes ystems have noone logged on. I dont fancy waking up to 30-40% vuln every morning. First, NPC's should have to be killed making farming plexes a more hands on activity, Also, faction war has always been a good source of income, but i would say that the tier system has increased potential income to a broken level and is just encouraging people to place farm alts in all militias. Best example is nulli bears, and entire coorperation of 1500 ratters come to FW because there is less risk and far better income. This wouldnt be a problem and i have zero problem with people making isk, just seems a little harsh that peoples plexing is no doubt 99% about isk and 1% about station lockouts. The fallout from this idea MAY cause system bunkers to be flipped more often, but then we would be in the situation where caldari are plexing at 3x the rate of gallente due to sheer numbers of alts and will simply always hold 3 times more systems than us by virtue of low skill pve characters. I dont think that is a very desirable direction to go in and would just mean that gallente and minmatar would eventually be stuck in tier 1/2 with the caldari and amarr in a constant tier 3/4 (given the current rates of plexing)
Lexmana is right we need to treat the problem not the symptoms.
You have identified two problems.
1) station lockouts due to plexing is stupid.
2) Plexing shouldn't be farmed by pve ships. They should be pvp.
If these problems are corrected then the other issues will go away.
If they make plexing a pvp activity then:
The amount of isk people make in faction war will not be that great. Only make isk if you are doing pvp, will mean you can't complete as many plexes per hour and will mean you have more significant costs - lost ships.
Moreover since only offensive plexing pays lp most militias will only be able to make significant lp half the time. So unless you have pvp alts in both militias you will only be making isk about half the time. So amarr has not really had any way to make isk for the last 2.5 months. In about another month we will be able to cash in. We will cash in big and then buy allot of ships to hold us over for the next big flip.
So yes there are big payout swings but they are not constant. You have to stay in the militia longer to get paid.
Its the fact that plexes are farmed instead of fought over that is the root problem. Once that is fixed we will find that the payouts are fine!
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dan Carter Murray
56
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Posted - 2012.08.10 16:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
David Devant wrote:Love your witty and incisive riposte dcm. What next? U mad? L2p? Please go on, this is truly a masterclass!
I avoid saying cliche bs phrases.
Also, more fights happening in plex from my perspective.
If anything, remove missions. |
Londor Rogers
UPPERCUT X3
7
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Posted - 2012.08.10 16:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
when it comes to plexing...
ehh just make it so if the offensive plexer warps off or is killed in the plex the defending plexer gets the LP for the plex. It wont stop gunless pve ships but it will promote PVP because people will be actively trying to take your plex.
Something like
offensive plexer finishes 9 out of the 10 minutes in a minor then warps off as defensive plexer comes into the site. defensive plexer only needs to finish the last minute of the plex to get his LPs though he would only get 1000/10000 since he only has to wait the remaining 1 minute. This way the defensive plexer doesn't have to spend to much time in the plex before he goes and attemps for the guy in the next plex.
This would give LP for defensive plexing but only if the opposing faction is actively attempting to plex your systems.
This would encourage PVP fits and slightly discourage Pure PVE fits because you would have to defend your site or not get any LPs.
Thoughts |
Dan Carter Murray
56
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Posted - 2012.08.10 16:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Londor Rogers wrote:when it comes to plexing...
ehh just make it so if the offensive plexer warps off or is killed in the plex the defending plexer gets the LP for the plex. It wont stop gunless pve ships but it will promote PVP because people will be actively trying to take your plex.
Something like
offensive plexer finishes 9 out of the 10 minutes in a minor then warps off as defensive plexer comes into the site. defensive plexer only needs to finish the last minute of the plex to get his LPs though he would only get 1000/10000 since he only has to wait the remaining 1 minute. This way the defensive plexer doesn't have to spend to much time in the plex before he goes and attemps for the guy in the next plex.
This would give LP for defensive plexing but only if the opposing faction is actively attempting to plex your systems.
This would encourage PVP fits and slightly discourage Pure PVE fits because you would have to defend your site or not get any LPs.
Thoughts
There is no way to exploit this.
|
Londor Rogers
UPPERCUT X3
7
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Posted - 2012.08.10 16:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:Londor Rogers wrote:when it comes to plexing...
ehh just make it so if the offensive plexer warps off or is killed in the plex the defending plexer gets the LP for the plex. It wont stop gunless pve ships but it will promote PVP because people will be actively trying to take your plex.
Something like
offensive plexer finishes 9 out of the 10 minutes in a minor then warps off as defensive plexer comes into the site. defensive plexer only needs to finish the last minute of the plex to get his LPs though he would only get 1000/10000 since he only has to wait the remaining 1 minute. This way the defensive plexer doesn't have to spend to much time in the plex before he goes and attemps for the guy in the next plex.
This would give LP for defensive plexing but only if the opposing faction is actively attempting to plex your systems.
This would encourage PVP fits and slightly discourage Pure PVE fits because you would have to defend your site or not get any LPs.
Thoughts There is no way to exploit this.
How would you exploit it?
I suppose you could have your enemy faction alt sit in your home system and then use this to run plexes relatively safely. Though not any quicker and you can already use enemy faction alts to run plexes relatively safely. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
529
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 16:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Londor Rogers wrote:when it comes to plexing...
ehh just make it so if the offensive plexer warps off or is killed in the plex the defending plexer gets the LP for the plex. It wont stop gunless pve ships but it will promote PVP because people will be actively trying to take your plex.
Something like
offensive plexer finishes 9 out of the 10 minutes in a minor then warps off as defensive plexer comes into the site. defensive plexer only needs to finish the last minute of the plex to get his LPs though he would only get 1000/10000 since he only has to wait the remaining 1 minute. This way the defensive plexer doesn't have to spend to much time in the plex before he goes and attemps for the guy in the next plex.
This would give LP for defensive plexing but only if the opposing faction is actively attempting to plex your systems.
This would encourage PVP fits and slightly discourage Pure PVE fits because you would have to defend your site or not get any LPs.
Thoughts
The problem is people have alts in the other militia. So they could just start these plexes and get lots of lp for defensive plexing.
I think notifications and the the timer counting down will fix most of the problems with faction war. The only remaining problem will be that you can't use pvp ships in majors- at least amarr can't. (and station lockouts will still be just as bad as ever.)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Dan Carter Murray
56
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 16:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Londor Rogers wrote:when it comes to plexing...
ehh just make it so if the offensive plexer warps off or is killed in the plex the defending plexer gets the LP for the plex. It wont stop gunless pve ships but it will promote PVP because people will be actively trying to take your plex.
Something like
offensive plexer finishes 9 out of the 10 minutes in a minor then warps off as defensive plexer comes into the site. defensive plexer only needs to finish the last minute of the plex to get his LPs though he would only get 1000/10000 since he only has to wait the remaining 1 minute. This way the defensive plexer doesn't have to spend to much time in the plex before he goes and attemps for the guy in the next plex.
This would give LP for defensive plexing but only if the opposing faction is actively attempting to plex your systems.
This would encourage PVP fits and slightly discourage Pure PVE fits because you would have to defend your site or not get any LPs.
Thoughts The problem is people have alts in the other militia. So they could just start these plexes and get lots of lp for defensive plexing. I think notifications and the the timer counting down will fix most of the problems with faction war. The only remaining problem will be that you can't use pvp ships in majors- at least amarr can't. (and station lockouts will still be just as bad as ever.)
My mailbox is full and can't receive new notifications :(
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