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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aelius on 14/01/2005 14:51:12
There was a time in EVE where real piracy was possible. I know that because at a known time i was one. First at the begining with FoA (Federation of Assassins) the Tank CEO corp and after in TLBC (The Legitimate Businessman's Club).
This was before people started to master the lame art of instant BMs jumping.
All known (honorable) pirates had to quite, get broke or they were forced to swiftchange to mass murders.
I know, from the begining of EVE, that always were "grifer" pirates but there were also "good" pirates.
Now, as things are, CCP brought upon us this endless killing and non profitable podding.
I also feel safer if i'm traveling alone in 0.0 with instant BM's but i can see the other face of the coin because i've been there.
I ask you CCP one simple thing because i know you (DEVs) play EVE too. Can you stop someone with instant BMs using WCS? Can you pirate then using the "true" pirate code? NOW CAN YOU IN YOUR UBER WISDOM?
I know that instas avoid long time travel and boredom for some players, and they feel quite safe (go figure ) but isn't this frustating for some players that want to go the "pirate way"?
They are forced to do something else like i did or incurr in mass murder using Large Smarties, hoping not to blow the loot while forced to use maximum force in a split second to avoid the prey's escape.
Everyone likes instas when runing and outnumbered, but when you are on the other side you hate them, because there's nothing you can do and you feel powerless.
If someone remembers the old pirate times, you should remember being jammed, webbed and asked for a ransom. But if the pirate did the things well you would walk away with a smaller wallet but with a story to tell and enjoy.
Nowadays you wake up in a cloning facility feeling like quiting EVE forever (implants).
Instas are like a EVE disease, addict to all but spoiling the fun for everyone.
This makes you think doesn't it?
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
confoy
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:28:00 -
[2]
You have anchorable warp disrupters dont you? Go buy some and camp a gate in 0.0 
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:37:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: confoy
You have anchorable warp disrupters dont you? Go buy some and camp a gate in 0.0
If they work so well why don't i see anyone using them? You probably didn't try to use one yet did you?
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Killash Larz
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:42:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: confoy
You have anchorable warp disrupters dont you? Go buy some and camp a gate in 0.0
If they work so well why don't i see anyone using them? You probably didn't try to use one yet did you?
They work just fine for us... I can give you a few pointers if you want? 
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Snaad Gnabbsvindel
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:44:00 -
[5]
I havent used one but I think the usual complaint about them is that they take to long to anchor and unanchor. Also it works both ways, pirates also get stuck in it and thus have a harder time to flee if a superior fleet arrives.
And they are expensive too of course. So if you have to get out in a hurry you will have to leave it for the enemy who can pick it up.
I havent actually used one though, maybe someone who has can give some info?
The Irrational is never wrong!! |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Killash Larz
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: confoy
You have anchorable warp disrupters dont you? Go buy some and camp a gate in 0.0
If they work so well why don't i see anyone using them? You probably didn't try to use one yet did you?
They work just fine for us... I can give you a few pointers if you want?
They aren't exactly reliable though, are they?
Use one and people still get through, use more than one and people come out of warp in all sorts of strange places.
They also have a hard time stopping people warping away.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Technolisa
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:49:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Technolisa on 13/01/2005 10:49:56
Grab a tissue
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:54:00 -
[8]
The answer isn't the simple removal of any one feature or the addition of any one other.
Personally, I feel pirates, or everyone really, should have more options for getting PvP than setting up a blockade. Bubbles are the obvious tools for serious blockades of course.
The potshotting business where the "pirates" are aligned with their safespot is pretty lame. It will get lamer if and when survivability and hp is raised.
Things I think would change the whole concept of PvP in eve:
1)Rethink hiding ships in a solar system completely. - Safespots shouldn't be safe, and log off times should be much much longer. It can involved deployable radars, or scan probes need to be much cheaper, only detect ships (or just non-commercial warships), and be much faster and much more effective. If you wanna pirate, you have to let it all hang out. If you wanna visit someone in their home turf, they are going to have the means to do something about it. Like 3-5minutes to find someone. Ships don't need to log off for 15-20 minutes.
2)Bookmarking around gates: Impossible for about 5000km within the vicinity of gates. Or impossible everywhere except within 1M KM of large objects like planets or moons. To assuage empire shippers, empire gates can be warped to within 5km, while zero security gates, being more primitive, can only be warped to within the standard 15km or farther.
3)Instalock setups: Banished. When they are no longer practical, they will no longer deserve any reluctant respect. Logically, we need a way to drive the economy without them. Refer to post on safespots. The key word in "escape pod" is escape. (Escape pods are not warships, should hard to detect with normal scanning tools.)
The only place you should feel safe in EVE is behind the cops, preferably faction cops, or safely behind allied borders. We'll need tools to set up defacto system control though. No inviolable control, just the ability to engage all invaders at your own discretion. And deployable structures that can hide one from ship-based scan probes. Give the defenders the advantage for once.
Overall, I think the future of piracy and PvP in general is deployable objects, and not just bubbles. I think industrial and intelligence gathering structures can really change the way conflict is done and percieved in EVE. I see more and more UIs grafted onto ship features and it makes me grimace because I know it plays into the human desire to be invulnerable and to hide and to strike only when in full possession of one's strength. EVE has to force people to want to paint big targets on themselves before piracy and pvp as you want it can exist full fledged.
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.01.13 11:07:00 -
[9]
Most large ships r slow (as they should be) so that's why bookmarks are used.... here's a compromise
1) Remove bookmarking altogether AND
2) Change the distance you warp to a target to 6km
So those that bookmark to haul and save huge amounts of time can still go fairly quickly and those that bookmark to avoid pirates still have some chance to escape.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2005.01.13 11:32:00 -
[10]
Give all (empire?) stargates and stations a built in 5km warp bubble.
More of a compromise than a solution, but that way both sides have a fighting chance or at least have to set up their ships to deal with the situation.
The way I see it, it should be impossible to create a blockade that is guaranteed to prevent anything coming through, and it should also be impossible to set up a ship that guarantees safety. Balancing those two is not that easy though, but instas do seem to have put the balance a little too far to one side.
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 11:43:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aelius on 13/01/2005 11:48:27
I see people hauling to empire huge amounts of valuable minerals in indis without an armored escort using simply instas and WCS. Does this sound right to you?
Every large amount of RL cash or valuables beeing transported in RL comes with full fitted force of somekind to protect it. Only if RL banks could use this "magnificent" instant jump technology they would save alot on security...
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Beringe
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Posted - 2005.01.13 11:47:00 -
[12]
It seems to me that people have forgotten how things were, and why they were changed.
Pirates used to sit on a gate and kill everyone (yes, even when they could stop people), and once a superior (or equal) force arrived, they would simply jump to safety.
Then aggression timers were added. Nothing changed - the pirates could watch the map and see the enemy ships moving in or notice them in local, and then just not fire on them.
The warp bubbles work as intended. They stop everyone well away from the gate, but forces the rats to either defend their bubble or leave it once someone bigger and badder arrives.
It may not be perfect, but it is *much* preferable to the way it was.
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"My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead."
"No, it's none of your business." |
Damajink
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Posted - 2005.01.13 11:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Braaage
Most large ships r slow (as they should be) so that's why bookmarks are used.... here's a compromise
1) Remove bookmarking altogether AND
2) Change the distance you warp to a target to 6km
So those that bookmark to haul and save huge amounts of time can still go fairly quickly and those that bookmark to avoid pirates still have some chance to escape.
Yep
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Trisha Zane
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Posted - 2005.01.13 11:59:00 -
[14]
Fantastic, another pirate crybaby that wants the game changed to suit his deviant needs. Yeah, forget about the fact that there is 7-8 thousand people that use bookmarks for things other than that.  |
Kendar Zek
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:00:00 -
[15]
It seems all the pirate types want CCP to simplify killing all of us who just want to mind our own business.
I don't personally use insta-jumps, because I rarely go under .5, but I can see how they are invaluable to the common player who simply wants to enjoy the game without being hassled, and is forced due to the placement of gates to travel in low security space. While such travel should entail risk, it shouldn't just be a guaranteed ransom or kill for all the griefers lying in wait.
Quit being jerks. Quit being so greedy. You'll have better luck in the long run.
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hired goon
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:04:00 -
[16]
Dear CCP:
Please make the way I play the game easier and the way others play it harder so I can get more money.
Thx,
Mr A. Pirate
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We come in peace. And tanks. |
Aelius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Beringe
It seems to me that people have forgotten how things were, and why they were changed.
Pirates used to sit on a gate and kill everyone (yes, even when they could stop people), and once a superior (or equal) force arrived, they would simply jump to safety.
Then aggression timers were added. Nothing changed - the pirates could watch the map and see the enemy ships moving in or notice them in local, and then just not fire on them.
The warp bubbles work as intended. They stop everyone well away from the gate, but forces the rats to either defend their bubble or leave it once someone bigger and badder arrives.
It may not be perfect, but it is *much* preferable to the way it was.
That's why i'm against the "show players inspace" map feature also.
If the timer for jumping after aggretion was increased this woulnd't happen. Then the pirates if in local noticed they were behing overmatched they couldn't jump and forced to warp to somewhere in system. The hunt would began and if they waited enough time to be able to jump again they would follow the rules as anyone else. 15Kms from the gate WITHOUT instas. If they chosen to log out the timer could be increased also.
IMO the only timer that should be quick enough is when you CTD when beeing attacked by NPC's.
Longer timers for everything, except that, would force people to dock, make a run for a stargate or continue with the cat and mice game for whenever necessary.
IMO this is only a matter of CCP's lasyness or lack of will/knoledge to implement this. (this is not a flame, it's more a "WAKE UP YOU GUYS")
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Aelius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Aelius on 13/01/2005 12:10:53
Originally by: Trisha Zane
Fantastic, another pirate crybaby that wants the game changed to suit his deviant needs. Yeah, forget about the fact that there is 7-8 thousand people that use bookmarks for things other than that.
Are you simply playing stupid or you don't know how to read? I didn't say anything about BM's, i'm all in favor of those. What i'm against is INSTANT JUMP BM'S.
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Aelius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kendar Zek
It seems all the pirate types want CCP to simplify killing all of us who just want to mind our own business.
I don't personally use insta-jumps, because I rarely go under .5, but I can see how they are invaluable to the common player who simply wants to enjoy the game without being hassled, and is forced due to the placement of gates to travel in low security space. While such travel should entail risk, it shouldn't just be a guaranteed ransom or kill for all the griefers lying in wait.
Quit being jerks. Quit being so greedy. You'll have better luck in the long run.
Use WCS and MWD if you want to get a chance to run. It was what people did long before you set your carebear foot in EVE you know?
Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station |
Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: hired goon
Dear CCP:
Please make the way I play the game easier and the way others play it harder so I can get more money.
Thx,
Mr A. Pirate
Dear CCP:
Please make the way I would like to play the game easier possible and the way others play it harder not 100% safe so I can get some more money without mining.
Thx,
Mr A. Pirate
That seemed to be more what he was saying the way I read it. Of course, whether he is right or not is another matter entirely. 
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Guderian
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:16:00 -
[21]
Ever thought about catching them on the other side of the gate?
"Blessed is he, who walks through life in ignorance, 'cause he does not know the dangers that lies beyond." |
Trisha Zane
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aelius
Edited by: Aelius on 13/01/2005 12:10:53
Originally by: Trisha Zane
Fantastic, another pirate crybaby that wants the game changed to suit his deviant needs. Yeah, forget about the fact that there is 7-8 thousand people that use bookmarks for things other than that.
Are you simply playing stupid or you don't know how to read? I didn't say anything about BM's, i'm all in favor of those. What i'm against is INSTANT JUMP BM'S.
Bookmarks are bookmarks reguardless of weather you put them in an asteroid belt to make single ship mining faster or near a stargate to enable you to jump quicker. |
Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:18:00 -
[23]
Great, make my day a total waste by forcing me to travel everywhere at 84 m/s just so you can get easy ganks.
I work for my isk, why should my life be made harder just to make yours easier? Are not we both entitled to our playing styles?
I choose to remain inside the law, limiting my gameplay and pvp severely, you do not, that's your call, but don't kill the game for me just because it's hard work.
Piracy isn't meant to be easy.
With large pirate groups able to camp gates with overpowering EW, instant locking sensor boosters, massively extended sniping ranges and the abilty to tank sentries I'm sure you need the help.
There are more pirates than ever in EVE now. Okay, styles have changed, but that's not due to instajumps.
Criminal flagging and sentries make it hard to web and scramble an enemy to ransom them. Sentries are your problem, not the bookmarks. That was what changed the playing style.
Instajump bookmarks are the only defence a law abiding solo player has to get past pirates that, due to a poorly implemented police system, are able to kill with impunity in many areas. There's no dynamic in how the game operates, police are too static, gate camps too predictable. You want to beat instas - don't pirate the same gates day in, day out.
As a pirate, you're choosing a specific path for earning your isk, you're specifically choosing to ignore the war rules and security status that the rest of us abide by. As a result, it should not be made easy for you - it's a choice that shouldn't be automatic and easy everytime a bored PvPer wants to get his jollies off.
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Stront3h
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aelius
Edited by: Aelius on 13/01/2005 10:21:21
There was a time in EVE where real piracy was possible. I know that because at a known time i was one. First at the begining with FoA (Federation of Assassins) the Tank CEO corp and after in TLBC (The Legitimate Businessman's Club).
LOLOLOLOL
One of the very persons that lead to things being changed, ooooooh the irony of your post.
So called 'Pirates' and thier 'lame' tactics have been responsible for more nerfs in this game than any other element of the community.
I feel sorry for the likes of SPVD and others that tried to do it properly only have it spoiled by the very players you mention.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Trisha Zane
Bookmarks are bookmarks reguardless of weather you put them in an asteroid belt to make single ship mining faster or near a stargate to enable you to jump quicker.
Not if CCP code it so that you can't bookmark near to a gate they're not, which is basically what he was asking for.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aelius
Edited by: Aelius on 13/01/2005 10:21:21
There was a time in EVE where real piracy was possible. I know that because at a known time i was one. First at the begining with FoA (Federation of Assassins) the Tank CEO corp and after in TLBC (The Legitimate Businessman's Club).
Very interesting, you mention real piracy in the same paragraph as claiming Tank CEO being one.
Firstly, tank got into piracy and imfamy late, and then his main method was to sit at a gate and kill everything in sight.
But that aside, I supose we have to thank him and his likes for some things, sentryguns, being cloaked when jumping in, jumping from gate to gate... I could go on...
Real piracy is sadly dead because each time pirates find a glitch in the system there are always people who cant seem to simply cull the heard, they have to slaughter the whole lot.
Dont blame the non pirates for the current situation, blame the pirates that overdid it, for example Tank CEO.
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Cardassius
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:26:00 -
[27]
Funny ppl, just camp jump in points if you don't want a bubble ;)
Have a scout check the incoming pilots.
ASCI Recruiting! |
Beringe
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aelius
If the timer for jumping after aggretion was increased this woulnd't happen. Then the pirates if in local noticed they were behing overmatched they couldn't jump and forced to warp to somewhere in system. The hunt would began and if they waited enough time to be able to jump again they would follow the rules as anyone else. 15Kms from the gate WITHOUT instas. If they chosen to log out the timer could be increased also.
This still relies on the pirates taking the bait, and it changes the game rather drastically (removal of local means scouts will have to be placed at gates everywhere, removal of instajumps means a lot longer travelling times).
And of course, most will manage to warp to safety anyway.
At least there is a bubble to defend in the current system. And, as people have mentioned above, you can always camp the other side of the gate.
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"My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead."
"No, it's none of your business." |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:57:00 -
[29]
Quote:
This was before people started to master the lame art of instant BMs jumping.
That was after people had mastered the lame art of gatecamping.
The unhindered camping of bottlenecks and the allseeing eye is much to blame for blobs and creating the aversion we know as instajumps, they are a symptom not the cause of the gankgreen that's spread all over EVE.
Convert Stations
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Ja'kar
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Posted - 2005.01.13 13:15:00 -
[30]
So-called 'Pirates' and their 'lame' tactics have been responsible for more nerfs in this game than any other element of the community
1st pirating is NOT the cause of Nerfs, rather the actions of those who donĘt like the pirating (PVP) side of the game who want an easy life and choose the wrong game. CCP set the rules and pirates followed them, no exploit no greifing (as pirates are not
greifrs)
2nd a BM is an exploit, CCP made the 15km warp to point for a reason, and therefore whatever the reason is, using BM is an exploit and should be stopped, its very unfair that 1 group gets nerfed while another does not, (yes I know pirates use em, would be silly not 2 at present).
3rd If however CPP feel that they want BM in the game, then as all other areas are covered by some sort of skill training then also BM, and of course the ability to train a skill that has a negative effect on BM should also be implemented
JAK
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