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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.08 05:29:00 -
[1]
It doesn't seem that way to me. I've dabbled (emphasis on dabbled) in Eve for about four years now.
I'm curious if there's any other miner/prospectors who are having second thoughts about their career. I can recall back when folks finding a significant Jaspet deposit would make a relative fortune, and mining/prospecting was in fact, a viable career vs. other paths.
I came back to Eve after a few years off, and things seem worse than ever. I have done all of the following in the last month:
1. Probe out and mine a wormhole. (alright, Arkanor!!!!) 9M isk/hour, limited by mass in/out of wormhole.
2. Mine in 0.0 under the auspices of a Sov. holding corporation. 6.4 M isk/hour. Losses encountered.
3. Mine in lowsec. Ridiculous: Lose 3 ships in a weekend. 5.5 M isk/hour.
4. Mine in highsec. Guaranteed 5M isk/hour, no risk at all.
Vs.
5. Run missions. Easily clear 10-15M isk/hour, minimal risk.
In short, I've made a pretty serious effort exploring the mining career... I'm a peaceful guy (carebear criticisms invited) and I enjoy the easy, meditative rhythm of mining, combined with the effort of exploring... but why?
The recent insurance changes have deflated the low end, leaving all reasonable profits to those willing to pay a ridiculous 0.0 tax (for an experience that is generally safer and less risky than lowsec).
The gist of my point is that the balance between risk v. reward seems very off compared to the apparent number of miners. Day after day, I run into folks mining veldspar for 2.2M isk/hour (in hulks! in lowsec!)-- and am left wondering what in the heck is going on.
I read the CCP economic reports religiously... and it seems very seriously like mining/prospecting has been depreciated... there is NO WAY I'd recommend mining to a new Eve player-- and as time goes on-- I feel that my investment has largely been wasted.
Has the whole thing been a loss to macro miners? Am I missing something (how Veld. mining in a Hulk could offer any possible ROI?)?
Thanks,
Mon Tani
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Deen Wispa
Gallente
GHF Corperation
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Posted - 2010.12.08 07:57:00 -
[2]
In before Akita or Rain chimes in :)
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Don't let the trolls ruin your game. |
Isthisanalt
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:15:00 -
[3]
First of all, tell me where these hulks are mining in lowsec. Secondly you shold stop mining arkanor in a cruiser and use a hulk. An unboosted hulk can easily make 20 mil an hour mining arkanor. With an orca about 35% more than that. A max hulk with rorqual boost will make over 30mil mining ark an hour.
Either your lying, misinformed or incredibly bad at maths. |
Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:23:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Isthisanalt
An unboosted hulk can easily make 20 mil an hour mining arkanor.
Are you accounting for solo-mining and hauling each load out of the WH? |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:33:00 -
[5]
From a strict mathematical standpoint, you are absolutely correct, mining income sucks donkey balls.
However, the "profitability" of mining doesn't usually come from maximum raw income per hour for one single attentive character.
Instead, it comes in form of a steady almost completely AFK trickle from many, many, MANY accounts under one single person's control.
In extreme cases, for some genuinely honest individuals, mining is preferable because they can only dedicate a sliver of attention towards the game, but they can do so over a long timespan. Whether they're playing so much and so inattentive because they're doing it while working, or maybe they prefer to socialize, that's a different story and one not all that important anyway. For them, mining is "worth it" because it's minimal effort, negligible risk, and they have nothing better to do that they CAN do at the moment, so they might as well mine.
Sometimes, the controller is not even human but a macro or bot only vaguely supervised by a human, and don't you guys even try to deny it's happening more often than not (but unless the owner of this "mining op" would be engaged in RMT too, chances are not negligible it'll go unpunished for a long time).
I mean, seriously, it's not such a big deal to run maybe 8 clients on a single decent machine, have one Orca, one hauler and six Hulks chipping away entire belts, for a combined income of maybe 50 mil ISK/hour... running that just a bit over 2 hours a day is already a "break-even" with PLEX purchasing, run just another 2 hours a day on average to not arouse that much suspicion and there's 3 bil ISK per month for you for the mere cost of electricity used.
So, yeah, for normal players, mining is something to be avoided like the plague.
But for some other "special cases", mining seems to be sufficient. |
Tassemet
Gallente
Ark Innovations
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Posted - 2010.12.08 11:50:00 -
[6]
As someone who runs only one account and mines solo most of the time, or occasionally with a corporation, the true value of mining (to me) doesn't come into play until I refine what I have mined and made stuff with it. The ability of me to mine, produce, and later sell or use my own makings saves me money, or makes me money, or makes/saves my corporation isk. TThere is also no better feeling when someone gives you a killmail with the ship you built in it being the victor (or hey, the loser too, it's cool to see your goodies blown up  )
So, yes, you might have seen me in high-sec mining veldspar because I needed the tritanium for a battleship I was building.
As for the viability of mining as a career- it's alright. I mean, I do missions here and there when i get bored of mining or my stuff is being produced to pass time. But, more often then not, I'm out in my hulk attempting to strip a highsec belt of it's ore for my needs.
I bet I can mine more veldspar then Chribba............
Staff Signatures Wanted: |
Mike TheMiner
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Posted - 2010.12.08 13:32:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mike TheMiner on 08/12/2010 13:32:59
Yea its crap income, i dont even bother now.
The best mining income in low and high sec is in hidden belts.
Learn probe skills and probe out hidden grav sites which are hidden belts and usually contain better ores than the ones in the system, plus if you mining these in low sec you can stay active when someone comes in local and warp out if you see scan probes on the overview.
They cant just warp to you and check the belts like before, they actually have to probe you out.
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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.08 17:54:00 -
[8]
I appreciate the thoughtful responses.
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Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Excessum Corporation
Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2010.12.08 20:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tassemet
As someone who runs only one account and mines solo most of the time, or occasionally with a corporation, the true value of mining (to me) doesn't come into play until I refine what I have mined and made stuff with it. The ability of me to mine, produce, and later sell or use my own makings saves me money, or makes me money, or makes/saves my corporation isk. TThere is also no better feeling when someone gives you a killmail with the ship you built in it being the victor (or hey, the loser too, it's cool to see your goodies blown up )
So, yes, you might have seen me in high-sec mining veldspar because I needed the tritanium for a battleship I was building.
As for the viability of mining as a career- it's alright. I mean, I do missions here and there when i get bored of mining or my stuff is being produced to pass time. But, more often then not, I'm out in my hulk attempting to strip a highsec belt of it's ore for my needs.
It doesn't save you isk. It doesn't make you isk. It doesn't save your corp isk. What it does is waste time. You could have spend the half the time you spend mining, doing missions and then proceeding to buy the minerals you would have otherwise mined. The old opportunity cost story and all that.
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Isthisanalt
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Posted - 2010.12.09 09:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Greg Huff
Originally by: Isthisanalt
An unboosted hulk can easily make 20 mil an hour mining arkanor.
Are you accounting for solo-mining and hauling each load out of the WH?
Thats docking in a staition in 0.0 with a load. why would you use WH's when you can get perfectly good upgraded 0.0.
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Fiann MacCool
Done Deal Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 15:02:00 -
[11]
regarding hidden belts in 0.0
did i miss something?
I thought they spawned randomly around a region.
I have spent 6 months skilling so i now have a rorqual with all the stuff needed.
3 hulks with t2 crystals for the high end stuff.
I've found quiet 0.0 npc space and have spent hours scanning for mercoxit or bistot belts.
all ive found are small belts which are'nt worth the effort, i'd be looking for at least a medium belt.
Was something changed when they introduced the "upgraded" space notion, if so freelancing small guys like me are screwed. I cant exactly bring my rorqual and hulks into some big alliances "upgraded space".
Don't really see the point in me having 4 accounts for mining when there's nothing to mine really. whats the point in me even paying for this crap.
If i mine the regular belts does this improve the chances of hidden ones popping up?
Does anyone have any info links etc that may be useful to me.
I'm considering jacking this game in due to recent frustrations.
thnx in advance.
apologies i posted same post in a similar thread but i'm mad for some answers
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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.09 15:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion
It doesn't save you isk. It doesn't make you isk. It doesn't save your corp isk. What it does is waste time. You could have spend the half the time you spend mining, doing missions and then proceeding to buy the minerals you would have otherwise mined. The old opportunity cost story and all that.
I think this analysis matches my own. I can run some L4's in absolute safety, and finish a session with 15M in my pocket. I can buy 6M worth of minerals and come out almost 10M the richer than if I'd been mining.
If you add LP's and the reward system (which is a nice addition, I think)-- there's almost no model I can think of in which mining seems like a good investment of time.
The problem--for this character anyways-- is that I've got the sunk skill point and equipment investment-- so it's a matter of not wanting to accept that waste.
On the notes about hidden belts, I agree with some of the other posts, as well. It's a great idea, but with prices where they are at, all but the rarest spawns are useless: 2M units of Omber? Fantastic-- it's worth less than scordite at present. That certainly was worth an hour probing out .4's.
The core of the issue for me is that there's no way I'd recommend the mining/industrial path to a new player. It seems rather definitively to have been engineered out, with CCP apparently abandoning it to the macro miners and those who can afford to run multiple accounts.
Either way, a good discussion, enjoyed the feedback.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.12.09 15:21:00 -
[13]
Confirming the numbers beside of WH mining.
As one of the above poster said, mining Ark in WH does net you 20m/h when not having a surprise visit by someone disturbing your mining ops in an unboosted hulk.
Not saying anything about paranoia and spamming d-scan every 15 sec. And not talking about getting pewpewd in your hauler when getting your values out.
Mining in lowsec is useless.
Mining in 0.0 (sov) is even more "carebearish" than highsec.
A decent L3 mission in highsec gives you more isk/h than mining.
TL;DR: Beside of the "WH flaw" your maths is correct. Go and do L4¦s in highsec and get rich.
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Fiann MacCool
Done Deal Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 15:45:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Fiann MacCool on 09/12/2010 15:45:56
Originally by: My Postman
Mining in 0.0 (sov) is even more "carebearish" than highsec.
Don't give a damn about being "carebarish", that childish "slur" is over used and not helpful in the context of this discussion.
I dont consider mining with 4 accounts unassisted in 0.0 with 2 billion+ worth of ships as carebearing anyway.
Can someone explain to me why I can't find any medium/large mercoxit, arkonor or bistot belts in npc 0.0.
have i been unlucky or is it that the space hasn't been upgraded.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.12.09 15:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Fiann MacCool
Edited by: Fiann MacCool on 09/12/2010 15:45:56
Originally by: My Postman
Mining in 0.0 (sov) is even more "carebearish" than highsec.
Don't give a damn about being "carebarish", that childish "slur" is over used and not helpful in the context of this discussion.
I dont consider mining with 4 accounts unassisted in 0.0 with 2 billion+ worth of ships as carebearing anyway.
Can someone explain to me why I can't find any medium/large mercoxit, arkonor or bistot belts in npc 0.0.
have i been unlucky or is it that the space hasn't been upgraded.
Hoo, hoo, cool down pal, did¦nt want to offense, was just talking about the "risk". Btw mining with 4 accounts simultaniously seems like "work" to me.
If you¦re in an upgraded system, and the ore was there before (in gravimetric belts i assume) you are now just unlucky for finding the "wrong" ore¦s.
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Fiann MacCool
Done Deal Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:01:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Fiann MacCool on 09/12/2010 16:06:27
thnx postman.
I am in npc non sov holding 0.0 that hasnt been upgraded thru infrastructure hubs and the like. does that reduce my chances of finding decent grav sites in ur opinion.
P.S apologies for getting uptight, but this is born from frustration within the game more than any personalities within this forum.
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Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.09 16:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Fiann MacCool
I am in npc non sov holding 0.0 that hasnt been upgraded thru infrastructure hubs and the like. does that reduce my chances of finding decent grav sites in ur opinion.
Only Sov-Held space is upgradable (the 'extra' guaranteed Grav sites). NPC 0.0 was not changed, so yeah its much harder there.
Best of luck...
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Fiann MacCool
Done Deal Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 17:44:00 -
[18]
thnx, think i need it.
will mining in the area improve chances of extra grav sites
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:42:00 -
[19]
Granted, mining isn't the best income.
But someones gotta do it. Lets face it all those mission boats modules drones ammo, all that was built by miners and manufacturers (who need minerals to manufacture).
I personally mine with 2 hulks and an orca. I make a nice bit of isk suits me just fine.
In the long run it comes down to personal preference. If you dont like the money you get from mining well thats why there is mission running.
Its far better to have options than none at all :)
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CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
Fiann MacCool
Done Deal Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 23:09:00 -
[20]
after all my *****ing i find 2 average bistot fields in one system,
can anyone tell me how long they last for ?
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.09 23:59:00 -
[21]
3-5 days after the first physical visit or until they're mined out. Whichever comes first.
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Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.10 01:57:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Mine in highsec. Guaranteed 5M isk/hour, no risk at all.
Ya think? I periodically suicide hulks when I get a fit of boredom, just for the lols. And I know I'm not the only one that does this outside of Hulkageddon to keep our rock hugging friends on their toes. If you think it's 100% safe, you're mistaken.
And as far as your experience in nullsec, it has the highest possible return for mining since there are no variants in Wspace (5%,10%). As well as the previous, you have local in nullsec for even more guaranteed security.
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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.10 02:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Spectre Wraith
Quote:
Mine in highsec. Guaranteed 5M isk/hour, no risk at all.
Ya think? I periodically suicide hulks when I get a fit of boredom, just for the lols. And I know I'm not the only one that does this outside of Hulkageddon to keep our rock hugging friends on their toes. If you think it's 100% safe, you're mistaken.
And as far as your experience in nullsec, it has the highest possible return for mining since there are no variants in Wspace (5%,10%). As well as the previous, you have local in nullsec for even more guaranteed security.
Of course. The timeless conflict between the productive and the sociopathically bored is reborn anew every day.
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Mike TheMiner
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Posted - 2010.12.10 03:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Mike TheMiner on 10/12/2010 03:32:49
Edited by: Mike TheMiner on 10/12/2010 03:31:59
Originally by: Halborn
Granted, mining isn't the best income.
But someones gotta do it.
The thing is, no one has to, thats one of the factors making it such a low income.
Players can do missions and reprocess the loot and get more ISK worth of minerals that way, and your getting bounties, loyalty points to buy goodies and faction standing on top of that.
Originally by: Fiann MacCool
I thought they spawned randomly around a region.
I have spent 6 months skilling so i now have a rorqual with all the stuff needed.
3 hulks with t2 crystals for the high end stuff.
I take it you actually like the mining and that is why you spend so much ISK and time training these chars up, if you did it soley for an in game income you will be disapointed, the risks of mining in null, especially with a rorqual really arent worth the income.
I Stopped doing it a long time ago, i do enjoy it sometimes but i find it really not worth my time as i dont get to play that much and would rather do something more productive.
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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.10 04:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mike TheMiner
Edited by: Mike TheMiner on 10/12/2010 03:32:49
Edited by: Mike TheMiner on 10/12/2010 03:31:59
Originally by: Halborn
Granted, mining isn't the best income.
But someones gotta do it.
The thing is, no one has to, thats one of the factors making it such a low income.
Players can do missions and reprocess the loot and get more ISK worth of minerals that way, and your getting bounties, loyalty points to buy goodies and faction standing on top of that.
Originally by: Fiann MacCool
I thought they spawned randomly around a region.
I have spent 6 months skilling so i now have a rorqual with all the stuff needed.
3 hulks with t2 crystals for the high end stuff.
I take it you actually like the mining and that is why you spend so much ISK and time training these chars up, if you did it soley for an in game income you will be disapointed, the risks of mining in null, especially with a rorqual really arent worth the income.
I Stopped doing it a long time ago, i do enjoy it sometimes but i find it really not worth my time as i dont get to play that much and would rather do something more productive.
And I think that's what I'm left from this conversation with.
Mining is a fine thing to do while you play Bejeweled in another window and a skill trains up.
As a primary focus for character investment? Only for the unwise.
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Visitmaniac
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Posted - 2010.12.10 04:58:00 -
[26]
This is a bit of disheartening news. After training for the last 6 months I am finally ready to go mine in low sec and help out a corp. I even went as far as paying for 4 accounts 3hulks and one rorqual just for this helping build and create things in eve so others can blow them up lol.
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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.10 05:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Visitmaniac
This is a bit of disheartening news. After training for the last 6 months I am finally ready to go mine in low sec and help out a corp. I even went as far as paying for 4 accounts 3hulks and one rorqual just for this helping build and create things in eve so others can blow them up lol.
As if my chatter, and the comments to a minor thread are authoritative.
I was inspired to make a mining char based on stories passed to me in-corp about people making 50-60M/hr.
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.10 05:11:00 -
[28]
If you calculate the isk... and the time... and the yadda yadda yadda....
Let's boil all of this down....
A) You can earn better isk/hr doing lots of other things.
B) Some people just like doing it for their own reasons.
The choice is the players.
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Mon Tani
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Posted - 2010.12.10 05:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Greg Huff
If you calculate the isk... and the time... and the yadda yadda yadda....
Let's boil all of this down....
A) You can earn better isk/hr doing lots of other things.
B) Some people just like doing it for their own reasons.
The choice is the players.
This struck me as a reasonable summary. Except that the 'logical miners' are punished directly by the 'emotional miners'.
Meaning: Mining, under rational analysis, does not compete with other isk/hour careers.
However, some people will choose 'irrationally' towards a mining career due to emotional impacts.
The 'irrational' group is buffered by an unknown amount of 'macro' miners who are mining on mass-basis. Meaning that the isk/hour is a loser on a per-character basis, but a winner on the $$/hour basis, where they are willing to wager $X per unit hour per a given isk return.
My economic theory is weak; please excuse.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.12.10 10:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Fiann MacCool
Edited by: Fiann MacCool on 09/12/2010 16:06:27
thnx postman.
I am in npc non sov holding 0.0 that hasnt been upgraded thru infrastructure hubs and the like. does that reduce my chances of finding decent grav sites in ur opinion.
P.S apologies for getting uptight, but this is born from frustration within the game more than any personalities within this forum.
Actually i only know this for sov 0.0 in upgraded systems. No sov 0.0 might be a different story, but i ASSUME when finding *Ark* in some system in a gravi belt, it might pop up in another system of the same constellation, after minded out/disappeared.
Props for your guts to mine with 4 accounts (and a rorq included!!!!) in no sov 0.0.
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