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Aldor
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Posted - 2010.12.10 15:21:00 -
[31]
TL;DR
Here is my thoughts on this.
When EVE was in its infancy and the market was mostly NPC buy orders and ISK was generated literally from nothing I would agree. Back in the day you had fixed prices on certain goods and mining with a bot and selling to NPC buy orders was a money printing press. In those days I think bots were detrimental.
Today however, aside from being a nuisance, I think bots are helpful to ccp. They are the new NPC buy/sell agents. The market now is all player driven. If a bot mines ice and sells the ice on the market a player is buying that ice. Lets say he runs a POS. That ISK he spent he has to replenish. That money is now sunk into running that POS. The only major issue with bots is that they drive the prices of goods down. In this case it takes less time online to replenish your isk. If a good under normal circumstances is 300 but with bots its worth 150 it takes another player half the time to replenish their wallets back to its pre-purchase norm.
Put it simply CCP wants us to take as long as we can to do what we want on EVE. The more months we subscribe = more profits. So on one hand bots make more materials available and provide a money sink that players need to spend more time online to replenish. However, they also drive up supply and lower prices so in some cases they reduce time spent online. Perhaps it could be a wash?
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.12.10 15:36:00 -
[32]
1- buyin plexes isnt a isk sink because those isk arent removed from the game
2- if a bot mine ice/minerals it isnt goin to introduce any isk in the game (it just make the goods he mine worth less)
3- if a bot do mission or rat that is the most sucky because it introduce new fres isk to a game that aready have too much
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Jaqel Broadside
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Posted - 2010.12.10 15:37:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Aldor
TL;DR
Here is my thoughts on this.
When EVE was in its infancy and the market was mostly NPC buy orders and ISK was generated literally from nothing I would agree. Back in the day you had fixed prices on certain goods and mining with a bot and selling to NPC buy orders was a money printing press. In those days I think bots were detrimental.
Today however, aside from being a nuisance, I think bots are helpful to ccp. They are the new NPC buy/sell agents. The market now is all player driven. If a bot mines ice and sells the ice on the market a player is buying that ice. Lets say he runs a POS. That ISK he spent he has to replenish. That money is now sunk into running that POS. The only major issue with bots is that they drive the prices of goods down. In this case it takes less time online to replenish your isk. If a good under normal circumstances is 300 but with bots its worth 150 it takes another player half the time to replenish their wallets back to its pre-purchase norm.
Put it simply CCP wants us to take as long as we can to do what we want on EVE. The more months we subscribe = more profits. So on one hand bots make more materials available and provide a money sink that players need to spend more time online to replenish. However, they also drive up supply and lower prices so in some cases they reduce time spent online. Perhaps it could be a wash?
Simple problem is it means anyone who is mining cannot compete with the botters, so they did all that training, spent the ISK and lost a style of game play they enjoyed - I see you dont care about this either so let's move on.
Let's take this to the next level, how does a player replenish their ISK ?
Let's say missioning, bots can mission - the player then physically is at a disadvantage with the bot missioners too.
In fact there is nothing a botter cannot do with at least the same speed for 3 times longer physically and no boredom threshhold.
Ultimately the real persons ISK get's devalued because they physically cannot create as much ISK as the bot accounts, because ISK buying something is the same no matter if it comes from a botting account or not - by a simple physical calculation of hours that's going to be 3x at least.
By a boredom threshhold that's gonna be 4x or more per account.
Your reasoning is just simply wrong.
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Rian O'Shea
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Posted - 2010.12.10 15:58:00 -
[34]
OP has this weird idea that plex don't (or rather; didn't have) have any RL value. He probably also mines his own minerals and then laughs at other for selling their products "way too expensive" while he's undercuts everyone and STILL makes a cool 30% profit... if you don't count the value of the minerals.
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The whole problem with the universe is that fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubt. |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.10 16:07:00 -
[35]
What I do not get about the Plex arguement is that the botters are paying with plex but enough of them real money trade that it hurts CCP's bottom line.
They are selling ISK cheaper then Plex. I just got a mail from them, they were offering free ISK to sign up or something(petitioned it). That means less people to buy plexes overall.
And that hurts CCP's bottom line.
--
I can not decide on a sig yet.
Under Construction.
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Alyx Bronstein
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Posted - 2010.12.10 16:34:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Alyx Bronstein on 10/12/2010 16:34:36
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
What I do not get about the Plex arguement is that the botters are paying with plex but enough of them real money trade that it hurts CCP's bottom line.
They are selling ISK cheaper then Plex. I just got a mail from them, they were offering free ISK to sign up or something(petitioned it). That means less people to buy plexes overall.
And that hurts CCP's bottom line.
... however, you don't know how many of their customers would be willing to pay the higher price for ISK (from PLEXes) if no other RMT outfits than CCP did exist.
So while it is likely that CCP loses some sales we don't have the information to say how important this effect really is.
CCP should have rough estimates on the price elasticity of ISK demand (because iirc after Unholy Rage the prices at which ISK were sold on RMT sites spiked and CCP knows how much of an increase in PLEX purchases they saw during that time) and does probably act according to them.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.10 16:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Alyx Bronstein
... however, you don't know how many of their customers would be willing to pay the higher price for ISK (from PLEXes) if no other RMT outfits than CCP did exist.
So while it is likely that CCP loses some sales we don't have the information to say how important this effect really is.
CCP should have rough estimates on the price elasticity of ISK demand (because iirc after Unholy Rage the prices at which ISK were sold on RMT sites spiked and CCP knows how much of an increase in PLEX purchases they saw during that time) and does probably act according to them.
We may not know but for RMT ISK has to be sold to make it profitable. The selling of ISK for cheaper then Plex means the RMT trade will be active while if Plex was cheaper then RMT would be useless.
So for an RMTÆer that pays with Plex, they must sell more ISK then 15$ to hurt CCP. 15$per month would not be enough income for an account to be kept open for this long because the porew cost alone of running a bot. which means for every RMTÆer CCP looses money or it would not be done.
Because this is an impact on profit it is no surprise they try to trace the money instead of just banning the account. It also shows why they are prioritised over Macro users that just bot for one person. As soon as CCP seeÆs all the money goes to the same source, they are instabaned and the wallet is put in the negative. That means the person doing it will have to create a new account and pay for a plex to activate it and a few more to reinstate there main account. At which point CCP can monitor that person.
Seems like they know what they are doing.
--
I can not decide on a sig yet.
Under Construction.
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Zaboth Garadath
Amarr
Ore Extraction Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.10 16:54:00 -
[38]
Dear god...
When you use a PLEX to 'pay' for your subscription, what is effectively happening is that some other guy is paying CCP for you, and in return you give him in-game isk.
Therefore if you pay with PLEX the money still goes to CCP.
_____________________________________________
'If you really want to make someone hate you, explain to them, logically and politely, why they are wrong' - J. Baylock |
Aldor
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Posted - 2010.12.10 20:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
Originally by: Aldor
TL;DR
Here is my thoughts on this.
When EVE was in its infancy and the market was mostly NPC buy orders and ISK was generated literally from nothing I would agree. Back in the day you had fixed prices on certain goods and mining with a bot and selling to NPC buy orders was a money printing press. In those days I think bots were detrimental.
Today however, aside from being a nuisance, I think bots are helpful to ccp. They are the new NPC buy/sell agents. The market now is all player driven. If a bot mines ice and sells the ice on the market a player is buying that ice. Lets say he runs a POS. That ISK he spent he has to replenish. That money is now sunk into running that POS. The only major issue with bots is that they drive the prices of goods down. In this case it takes less time online to replenish your isk. If a good under normal circumstances is 300 but with bots its worth 150 it takes another player half the time to replenish their wallets back to its pre-purchase norm.
Put it simply CCP wants us to take as long as we can to do what we want on EVE. The more months we subscribe = more profits. So on one hand bots make more materials available and provide a money sink that players need to spend more time online to replenish. However, they also drive up supply and lower prices so in some cases they reduce time spent online. Perhaps it could be a wash?
Simple problem is it means anyone who is mining cannot compete with the botters, so they did all that training, spent the ISK and lost a style of game play they enjoyed - I see you dont care about this either so let's move on.
Let's take this to the next level, how does a player replenish their ISK ?
Let's say missioning, bots can mission - the player then physically is at a disadvantage with the bot missioners too.
In fact there is nothing a botter cannot do with at least the same speed for 3 times longer physically and no boredom threshhold.
Ultimately the real persons ISK get's devalued because they physically cannot create as much ISK as the bot accounts, because ISK buying something is the same no matter if it comes from a botting account or not - by a simple physical calculation of hours that's going to be 3x at least.
By a boredom threshhold that's gonna be 4x or more per account.
Your reasoning is just simply wrong.
Let me step back and say that I agree. I hate that bots exist. But this is from the perspective of a player. My mins do not sell at the "natural" level that they should if bots did not exist. Who could tell what price Trit would be at if they did not exist.
However from the arguement of CCP. Knowing the business model of a subscription service. They love the bots! Rather than allowing other players to live off of plex purchases bots drive prices down. Like you said bots can do everything a normal person can but for longer periods and less bordom. So just about every aspect of EVE life is affected by bots. What lower goods = is less you make when you sell goods on the market. Sure there are still ISK generators out there (bounties, mission rewards, etc) but those can be controlled by programming. Supply and demand cannot except through allowing evils, like bots, to exist to provide a 'market maker' situation on the player market.
I'm probably still not making much sense but I hope I clarified a little what I was trying to get at.
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Wartrec
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Posted - 2010.12.14 07:51:00 -
[40]
We need to get rid of bots.
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