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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:18:00 -
[1]
Is any Command Ship worth it?
I'm all covered for my Indy alt, tomorrow, SP redistribution-wise. But for my main, I dunno, I'm considering training for the Nighthawk; but it seems... well, not so good, to be honest. A bit better than a Drake: I balance BCU's and shield stuff to, roughly, 500 DPS output and, also, ca. 500 DPS tank. And that's without AB.
Can't say those numbers impress me, really. Tengu is much better. So, that kinda makes me wonder, is ANY Command Ship even worth spending SP on? Or training at all? Now, with a third hardpoint things would be different. But like this? --
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Sa'Shena
Amarr Nomad LLP Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:36:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sa''Shena on 15/12/2010 06:39:37
Originally by: Ranka Mei Is any Command Ship worth it?
I'm all covered for my Indy alt, tomorrow, SP redistribution-wise. But for my main, I dunno, I'm considering training for the Nighthawk; but it seems... well, not so good, to be honest. A bit better than a Drake: I balance BCU's and shield stuff to, roughly, 500 DPS output and, also, ca. 500 DPS tank. And that's without AB.
Can't say those numbers impress me, really. Tengu is much better. So, that kinda makes me wonder, is ANY Command Ship even worth spending SP on? Or training at all? Now, with a third hardpoint things would be different. But like this?
What do you plan on doing with it? Complexes? High Sec missions? Null Sec Anoms? PvP?
In my experience with PvP Command Ships are bad ass. Good tanks, lots of DPS on the Field Command ships, and the Fleet Command ships bonuses to Gang Links is invaluable if you're ever flying in a good size fleet as they make every member better. Even moreso if you can fit the Mindlink for their Warfare Link specialty.
Command ships are expensive yes, but are they worth it? If you are using them for the right things, absolutely.
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Voi Tzout
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.15 08:12:00 -
[3]
Not sure I'd be that positive.
Some commands are real dogs - eos's and astarte's for a start. Others are good in their role - vultures and damnations as fleet boosters. I see a lot more field commands in 0.0 such as sleipnir's than 6 months ago due to the prevalence of shield fleets. Don't really see nighthawks too much.
The command ships main problem is:
a) they're not as agile and have higher sig radiuses than hac's; b)They're increasingly getting replaced in specific fleet roles by T3 ships - e.g. unprobeable loki's over claymores; c) drakes are easier to train and replace while still being very well suited to the current game mechanics.
That said I'm mainly referring to 0.0 not low sec .... and I abhor high sec so have no knowledge of missioner fits.
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.15 08:18:00 -
[4]
A good fleet command ship pilot in a gang can add what, 20%-ish to Shield or speed or warp disruption range or damage for the rest of his fleet.
As far as I know, that's what they're used for, mostly.
Also, Drake is considered one of the best ships out there at the moment (a good number of people even call them overpowered) - I'm not sure about the NightHawk, as I've never even considered Command Ships (for the simple fact that they're not my style) - but the relative high power of the Drake might slant your views a bit.
Also, a good way to have a good view on which ships+fittings do what, search for "BattleClinic Loadouts" and find a drake fit and a nighthawk fit which does what you need it to do, maybe there is a fit out there that's better then what you've been thinking of. ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser:
http://gemblog.nl/skill/
Also a spy. |
AnonWolfMan
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:00:00 -
[5]
Command ships themselves are nice ships however their real strength also lay in leadership skills not their fitting or layouts. To be a good command ship flyer you need the leadership skills and the problem is these are very time consuming and you as the flyer only get to use them when in gang and set as booster.
For me (not this char my mains are currently inactive till this afternoon) I retired from 0.0 about 3 years ago, and generally been floating about, I have 5million in leadership and just don't use it. Annoying, because i am maxed out on armour warfare but the only person that benefits these days are my alts.
If you want to use Commandships to their full then leadership skills BUT remember it is a team ship. If you want a high DPS, well there are better ships for DPS than command ships
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:20:00 -
[6]
Thanks for the feedback, guys. :)
Yeah, I was primarily thinking of using it as PvE mission runner; but for that purpose it just offers too little extra over the Drake, IMHO. Especially considering the skills required. Tengu really outshines the Nighthawk here.
Another consideration is, indeed, all the leadership skills required to actually use this boat as intended. I'm not yet in a stage where I can lax off my regular training, and do charisma stuff for a whole year.
Oh, and I did check it out with EFT, of course; extensively. And all sorts of loadouts. I just can't find a PvE fit which overly impresses me. Either you run into a pimped Drake (with 6x SPR) and lousy DPS, or something with a bit more DPS, but significantly lower shields (especially if you want to fit an AB, like I do).
Decisions, decisions. :) Just wanna make sure I spent my SP wisely today (or maybe not even today at all).
--
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:24:00 -
[7]
Propably better off sinking it into a PvE boat, You could fly a mean Tengu with decent learning skills ;) ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser:
http://gemblog.nl/skill/
Also a spy. |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gemberslaafje Propably better off sinking it into a PvE boat, You could fly a mean Tengu with decent learning skills ;)
Already have the skills for that. :) Was thinking Command Ships because -- carebear that I am -- I'm a mite worried about getting ganked in the Tengu, in mission. Seems like the Nighthawk just doesn't cut it as PvE ship, though; so it may just come down to the continuing with the Tengu, after all. --
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Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Gemberslaafje Propably better off sinking it into a PvE boat, You could fly a mean Tengu with decent learning skills ;)
Already have the skills for that. :) Was thinking Command Ships because -- carebear that I am -- I'm a mite worried about getting ganked in the Tengu, in mission. Seems like the Nighthawk just doesn't cut it as PvE ship, though; so it may just come down to the continuing with the Tengu, after all.
And I, evil as I am, will look forward to the day I down the Tengu ;)
Until then, good hunting <3 ---
Creator of the Eve Character Appraiser:
http://gemblog.nl/skill/
Also a spy. |
Voi Tzout
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.15 10:22:00 -
[10]
A decent comment but Quote: you as the flyer only get to use them when in gang and set as booster
isn't really true except for the fleet booster position itself and frequently the fleet command and fleet booster person are the same. Most Fleet booster or fleet command positions now tend to be unprobeable T3 strategic cruisers with specialist setups but wing positions tend to be fleet commands that vary with the fleet type/composition. For example, yesterday we had a strategic cruiser in fleet command (and booster) position with 4 damnation wings and an avatar wing. Within each wing you'll find extra ships that can take over the spot when the wing commander dies as itÆs a fairly standard tactic to nail the strategic cruisers and fleet commands as a priority nowadays so ôalternatesö are always needed.
The other complications in 0.0 as I implied above is with the prevalence of titans in key positions (particularly in a dedicated cap fleet). It means the booster can travel with the cap fleet so coverage is never lost plus the 37.5% armour or cap recharge bonus is stunningly useful.
Basically, itÆs a lot more complicated than before but thereÆs also a lot more use of boosters in all positions. The investment in skills for a dedicated command/strategic cruiser specialist can be extreme nowadays. ;)
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.12.15 10:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Skippermonkey on 15/12/2010 10:48:21 No, the worst of them is the Sleipnir, its rubbish, if i were you i'd just avoid it, its for the best
http://tears.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1661688 http://tears.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1660294
Originally by: CCP Capslock
OH GOD THE TESTING
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.15 10:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 15/12/2010 10:48:21 No, the worst of them is the Sleipnir, its rubbish, if i were you i'd just avoid it, its for the best
http://tears.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1661688 http://tears.evekb.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1660294
*pout* And I was planning to cross-train for the Sleipnir, in my next year plan. It has good DPS, but aweful cap, it seems. But I really just wanted it because it looks cool. :) --
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Voi Tzout
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:19:00 -
[13]
He's being sarcastic if you check his links and the current price of Sleipnir's demonstrates their value in a lot of current 0.0 fleets.
For myself its the only ship I leave the sound on to hear the guns - nothing like gunning down an opponent with that rattle of fire. Petty reason to fly a ship but oh so satisfying.
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Voi Tzout He's being sarcastic if you check his links and the current price of Sleipnir's demonstrates their value in a lot of current 0.0 fleets.
For myself its the only ship I leave the sound on to hear the guns - nothing like gunning down an opponent with that rattle of fire. Petty reason to fly a ship but oh so satisfying.
Lol - Slepinirs were also used in the alliance tournament so they're not all that bad.
Btw I'm not really fond of the medium ACs, large ones sound so much better! Medium hulls are a lot more fun to fly, though ..
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Ima Victim
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Posted - 2010.12.15 11:27:00 -
[15]
Well I for one like Command Ships a lot. When flying a Vulture or Damnation with my skills its an almost 26% bonus to the gang, and IMO the Nighthawk is a fine ship for missioning, esp when you consider the price to buy and fit one vs. a Tengu. My learning sp are def. going to purchase CS 5.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Voi Tzout He's being sarcastic if you check his links and the current price of Sleipnir's demonstrates their value in a lot of current 0.0 fleets.
For myself its the only ship I leave the sound on to hear the guns - nothing like gunning down an opponent with that rattle of fire. Petty reason to fly a ship but oh so satisfying.
LOL. Fell for that one, didn't I? :) It still seems to be very difficult to get it cap-stable, though; that's something I will have to get used to. But maybe it's just like a Golem that you just pulse every now and then. And there's always Mr. Cap Booster. :) --
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Sigaar
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:18:00 -
[17]
Can you point out how is command ship better then t3 at anything? Not to mention that command is longer to train for.
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Ultim8Evil
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.15 13:11:00 -
[18]
Absolution
/thread --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Voi Tzout
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.15 13:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sigaar Can you point out how is command ship better then t3 at anything? Not to mention that command is longer to train for.
a) cost; b) a fleet command can have a very heavy tank and still run 3-4 links; c) no skill losses on losing the ship.
You use the right ship for the right job and its not always the most expensive one.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.12.15 13:51:00 -
[20]
I like the Absolution personally for general use. But I much prefer the Damnation's looks and for command boosting.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Dorian Wylde
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Posted - 2010.12.15 15:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sigaar Can you point out how is command ship better then t3 at anything? Not to mention that command is longer to train for.
I seriously doubt you could fit a better tank on a T3 than a Damnation, even taking sig radius and speed into account.
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2010.12.15 17:10:00 -
[22]
Side Notes:
Even if you never fit a command ship, Battlecruiser's V is nice to have.
Battlecruiser V applies to all the races, in case you want to try something new later.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.15 18:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Originally by: Sigaar Can you point out how is command ship better then t3 at anything? Not to mention that command is longer to train for.
I seriously doubt you could fit a better tank on a T3 than a Damnation, even taking sig radius and speed into account.
I seriously doubt you could fit a better tank on a Damnation than on a Tengu. :) The latter -- if must be (with overheating) -- can tank upward to 7100+ DPS, with a Complex booster, for almost 2 minutes. --
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:51:00 -
[24]
nighthawk is alright for pve... if you can't afford a tengu that is.
the sleip is probably the only reason to train cs right now.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Originally by: Sigaar Can you point out how is command ship better then t3 at anything? Not to mention that command is longer to train for.
I seriously doubt you could fit a better tank on a T3 than a Damnation, even taking sig radius and speed into account.
proteus can get what 700k ehp? aww I'm only getting 661k ehp on the damnation
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Sol Fallstaff
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Posted - 2010.12.15 21:52:00 -
[26]
I can get the Nighthawk in EFT to display 770 dps including drones with my skills and implants which aint too bad, also the Nighhawks bonus to missile explosion velocity per level also means that it should deal with smaller ships faster. so as mission runner its still pretty good, allthough not quite as good as a tengu.
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Headerman
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.16 00:48:00 -
[27]
unprobable T3 > CS
Even to the point of Legion > Sleipnir
Only bad thing is that Strategic cruisers are racial, so have to train the strategic cruiser skill up for your race, then add your races subsystem skills.
Legion > Absolution/damnation
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Lyris Nairn
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.16 01:33:00 -
[28]
If you already have Caldari Battleship trained and some gunnery skills of some kind, you might consider getting up Amarr Battleship and Tech2 large beams for a Tachyon Nightmare. Amazing mission boat, especially if you do it in Amarr space where the primary enemy types are Blood Raider and Sansha.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.16 02:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lyris Nairn If you already have Caldari Battleship trained and some gunnery skills of some kind, you might consider getting up Amarr Battleship and Tech2 large beams for a Tachyon Nightmare. Amazing mission boat, especially if you do it in Amarr space where the primary enemy types are Blood Raider and Sansha.
LOL, I still only have Caldari Battleship 2. My former CEO flew a Nightmare, though (2, in fact, spider-tanked), and it was a magificent beast of war, for sure. :)
Choices, choices. Haven't spent the SP yet (only on Leadership V). I'm leaning towards sinking a lot of it into Commandships V now. That Sleipnir is beginning to look better and better. :) --
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Voi Tzout
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.16 08:23:00 -
[30]
The reference to a tank I made was the damnation and its tank vs the legion ... running a full set of links as thats the purpose of the "fleet" version I mentioned. I was also presuming a sensible fit.
The legion is best essentially with minimal tank and relying on being unprobeable as it needs to fit 2 command processors just to have a full set of links. Problem is I've seen entire fleets left without their primary booster when the sensible FC on the other side of the gate pre-instructed primaries to take them down while they loaded grid. In that situation a damnation will survive until the guardians can save them ... my legion melted. In addition after I get safely into system I have to create my own bookmark before I can start running links rather than just press F1-F2-F3. Thats an entire fleet waiting on me...
Quid pro quo. Once my legion gets in system safely and has its bm I can ignore it essentially and its untouchable while still providing slighly better bonuses than the damnation. Well presuming I don't use some of the dubious setups on eve-o that aren't unprobeable to the maxed pilot hunting me.
Or as I said earlier - use the right tool for the job not the most expensive one.
I do love both T3 and commands it has to be said.
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