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Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:36:00 - [1] Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 11:38:31 So, people in EVE can be pretty immoral. Scamming, stealing, preying on others, it's all pretty common fare. Just part of the game. But that leads me to a few questions: (Hopefully, amidst the trolling, a few people will actually answer honestly.) 1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course) 1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot) 2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"? [Example would be: Blow someones car up, and the police blow yours up. Or steal someones wallet and they're allowed to beat you up. Or, mug someone in bad neighborhoods enough, and the good ones ban you. Etc etc.] -------- My answers:< 1) Only rarely. It's kind of the point of the game. 1a) Feels kinda empty, but still entertaining. 2) Wouldn't consider it outside of a game. Despite the fact that people are still, yknow, 'people', even on the other side of a monitor, EVE is the kind of game where you sign up -knowing- bad things will happen. Kinda like how if you go into a boxing match, you expect to get punched, but that hardly makes it ok to punch people on the street.
Cozmik R5 Minmatar Mobile Alcohol Processing Units Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:42:00 - [2] 1) No. 1b) The only thing that counts is the pretty 'splosions. 2) In real life most people in this game wouldn't even dare looking at a gold fish the wrong way. ____________________ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:42:00 - [3] Originally by: Space Pinata 1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course) I've never done it so I would not know if I feel guilty about it. Originally by: Space Pinata 1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot) I never do anything negative on whim. Originally by: Space Pinata 2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"? "I" do not change who "I" am simply because the venue for my actions change. However, that being said, in Eve no one pays life changing/harming consequences for my desire to "see" everything in moral black and white areas. For me, that's the fantasy of the environment. Fewer ambiguous choices. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:44:00 - [4] Being able to be evil also allows us to make a meaningful choice to be good. See also: A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:50:00 - [5] Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 11:53:13 Originally by: Shar Tegral Things What, then, would it take for you to harm another player? An insult? Them attacking your ship? Them attacking your friend's ship? Would you only retaliate to an equal and 'fair' degree or would they make themselves fair game forever? Or would you always turn the other cheek? (As a figure of speech) Quote: Being able to be evil also allows us to make a meaningful choice to be good. See also: A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess Interesting point. It's hard to PVP without being 'evil' (in game), but a lot of bad things in reality have reasons to be tempting that cannot be attained morally, too.
Veronica Zegna	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:50:00 - [6] Meh, I don't mind doing it at all. Part of the game is doing it, part of the game is dealing with it (e.g. the joy is succeeding either way). I doubt a lot of people in this game are on a killing spree, and if they are, they're probably good at it. No one in their right mind would behave like this in the real world. Personally, this game isn't even an outlet for me.
Eastman Color	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:52:00 - [7] Do you feel bad when you shoot people in a FPS? If you were in a martial arts tournement would you feel bad about beating the other guy? It's a game, a perpetual competition where you set your own goals. No I don't\wouldn't mug\steal\destroy other peoples stuff in real life. The way I know the difference between real life and a game is in real life I rarely control my actions with a keyboard\joypad.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Eastman Color Do you feel bad when you shoot people in a FPS? If you were in a martial arts tournement would you feel bad about beating the other guy? It's a game, a perpetual competition where you set your own goals. No I don't\wouldn't mug\steal\destroy other peoples stuff in real life. The way I know the difference between real life and a game is in real life I rarely control my actions with a keyboard\joypad. The gods of irony will soon be paralyzing you. Except for your hands. You'll be gifted a joystick operated wheelchair and a text to speech translator.
cpu939 Gallente Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Space Pinata Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 11:38:31 So, people in EVE can be pretty immoral. Scamming, stealing, preying on others, it's all pretty common fare. Just part of the game. But that leads me to a few questions: (Hopefully, amidst the trolling, a few people will actually answer honestly.) 1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course) 1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot) 2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"? [Example would be: Blow someones car up, and the police blow yours up. Or steal someones wallet and they're allowed to beat you up. Or, mug someone in bad neighborhoods enough, and the good ones ban you. Etc etc.] -------- My answers:< 1) Only rarely. It's kind of the point of the game. 1a) Feels kinda empty, but still entertaining. 2) Wouldn't consider it outside of a game. Despite the fact that people are still, yknow, 'people', even on the other side of a monitor, EVE is the kind of game where you sign up -knowing- bad things will happen. Kinda like how if you go into a boxing match, you expect to get punched, but that hardly makes it ok to punch people on the street. 1 - no 1b - feels fun 2 - if we where immortal same as in game body die new body ect ect our morrals would change we would have death fights on tv like boxing and then reporter going so you died here is a ford escort and there is a rock in the boot. bigger question is what would happen to religion if we became immortal Signature not EVE Related. - Adida
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:56:00 - [10] Has anyone actually been harmed by other EVE players, though? I would have thought such an event would be rather well-known and firmly established in the game history if it had happenedà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Trader Gandry	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:58:00 - [11] I haz a secret, I knowz the difference between a game and real life.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Tippia Has anyone actually been harmed by other EVE players, though? I would have thought such an event would be rather well-known and firmly established in the game history if it had happenedà Very slightly. Since ISK can be sold via GTC, it has value. Thus any ISK loss is a small monetary loss. Also, doing something like, say, wardeccing a corp until it falls apart is 'harmful' in the same sense that a bunch of children bullying another is harmful. Although, I doubt anyone takes their losses that seriously. (I'm always more annoyed that the enemy got satisfaction out of me than about whatever ISK I may have lost.)
Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:04:00 - [13] I once canflipped a guy mining in an osprey; I made a can of my own, dragged his ore from his can to mine, then blew up the can. I felt so bad about it afterwards I sent him the isk value of the ore. I like faction warfare for the very reason that the enemy never has any excuse. \|Bounty Fix\|Mining Makeover\|
BellaDonna Nyghtshade	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Tippia Has anyone actually been harmed by other EVE players, though? I would have thought such an event would be rather well-known and firmly established in the game history if it had happenedà There are unverified rumours of a certain alliance member making off with the wife of the head of another certain alliance...........you know how these things go though......did he 'steal her away' or was she already on the lookout to leave........ Could that be considered 'hurt'?
Lutz Major Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:09:00 - [15] Originally by: Tippia Has anyone actually been harmed by other EVE players, though? I would have thought such an event would be rather well-known and firmly established in the game history if it had happenedà Why you should only screw people who live far away from you in EvE Luckily for the OP, his girl friend took over control :-)
Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:10:00 - [16] Originally by: BellaDonna Nyghtshade There are unverified rumours of a certain alliance member making off with the wife of the head of another certain alliance...........you know how these things go though......did he 'steal her away' or was she already on the lookout to leave........ Women can't be "stolen". They have desires of their own. \|Bounty Fix\|Mining Makeover\|
Neddy Fox Gallente FireStar Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:11:00 - [17] It's a GAME. Your questions are rather invalid. I play FPS. Does that make me a murderer? You're basically asking all BF players if they go out on the street in RL and shoot everyone. EVE is a MMO, where player interaction is key. Part of it is scamming / spying and all other aspects. "Griefing" by suiciding a hulk is just the same as valid as shooting someone in lowsec. When you undock, you should consider your ship lost. It's part of the game. Making the link to RL is BS.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:15:00 - [18] Originally by: BellaDonna Nyghtshade There are unverified rumours of a certain alliance member making off with the wife of the head of another certain alliance...........you know how these things go though......did he 'steal her away' or was she already on the lookout to leave........ Could that be considered 'hurt'? Dependsà did she leave him because of ehmà the relative sizes of the two suitors' Avatars? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Rek Seven	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:20:00 - [19] I have people whose idea of fun is to ruin another persons experience. I found a hauler in a WH once and stole it. I felt pretty bad as the owner didn't do anything to me and he had only been playing for a few months, so I contacted him and gave it back... Minus the fittings of course.
Rudgier Thorrin Blyskawica	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:25:00 - [20] A game is a game and real life is real life. Also, I wouldn't download a car IRL.

Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:25:00 - [21] EVE is a game. Do you feel bad in an fps shooting the other guys? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Shar Tegral Things Originally by: Space Pinata What, then, would it take for you to harm another player? This thread had value when it was just a survey. It has lost value when you started issuing critiques. My style of play is mine and that's all you'll ever need to know. I judge no one else's, I will not bother to hear someone else's of my own. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
ACY GTMI	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 - [23] I've thought about this a bit. I've had my share of harm done to me. I'm able to write that off as learning experiences. Some of the things I see done to others, though, make me wonder. Sometimes I think the game should be split into two exclusive parts, one for the builders and one for the destroyers, with an interface that can only be crossed by market items. I really don't care about PvP, one way or the other. I have a few assists, but I've never fired anything more harmful than a target painter at anyone. Kind of a fine line there between doing harm and not, but my conscience is clear(er). It is very difficult for me to accept that some of the real twinkies in the game aren't just as screwed up in real life, though. For instance, I was once engaged by a particularly inept can flipper who said all the things the Manual For Can Flippers suggests in order to get a Retriever to fire at 'you'. He seemed to be really excited to get away with my popper stopper bookmark. Out of curiosity I checked his bio, which said that he, or she, was a pre-law student. Hmmm. On the other hand, there's a player who I believe is Russian, hangs out on a path that I travel often, and, I think, is among the top 200 killers in the game. Three of my characters have lost ships, and, in some cases, pods, to this player in the same bottle neck system. Some more than one. It's extremely irritating to me and first thoughts are always of revenge, but I tried to look at it from their side once, and it was really depressing. The thing it made me think of most was WW I/WW II fighter aces. I would imagine that it didn't take long for most of them to start seeing it as a job rather than an exciting experience. From some of the books written by/about some of these people, they often sympathized with the pilots they shot down, even though their cause was, to them, relatively noble. Day after day they grabbed their brief cases and headed off to the 'office' to kill or be killed. The difference in Eve is that you get an infinite number of do-overs if you really aren't cut out for the work. Basically, the decision to mine and manufacture is pretty easy for me after walking a few mental steps in the other person's shoes.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:41:00 - [24] Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 12:41:42 Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Shar Tegral Things Originally by: Space Pinata What, then, would it take for you to harm another player? This thread had value when it was just a survey. It has lost value when you started issuing critiques. My style of play is mine and that's all you'll ever need to know. I judge no one else's, I will not bother to hear someone else's of my own. I did not judge you, I was just curious if you are a complete pacifist or if there is something that can provoke you. It seems like a fair enough question to me. Did I accidentally offend you somehow? I'd have made it more general but didn't think to when I posted at first, and you are the only person who has responded that they do not like to harm other players.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Neddy Fox It's a GAME. Your questions are rather invalid. I play FPS. Does that make me a murderer? You're basically asking all BF players if they go out on the street in RL and shoot everyone. EVE is a MMO, where player interaction is key. Part of it is scamming / spying and all other aspects. "Griefing" by suiciding a hulk is just the same as valid as shooting someone in lowsec. When you undock, you should consider your ship lost. It's part of the game. Making the link to RL is BS. It's not quite the same. First person shooters are ONLY about shooting. Shooting people is only one of many of EVE's playstyles. The questions specifically implied no need for hostility. Being on an opposing FPS team is a cause for hostility. Being at war in EVE is a cause for hostility. In other words, the question was whether or not you cause harm for profit, or just for the sake of doing so... or only if you have a typical 'war' reason (revenge, territory war, etc). The fact that you are so defensive about it tells me that you do have some moral qualms about it, despite enjoying yourself, however. Most people simply reply that they find it fun and don't make the connection. With you, it seemed to strike a nerve. I'm trying not to be impolite here, but you're rather rude for no good reason, yourself.
Pyea	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:51:00 - [26] Edited by: Pyea on 16/12/2010 12:55:44 Originally by: ACY GTMI The thing it made me think of most was WW I/WW II fighter aces. I would imagine that it didn't take long for most of them to start seeing it as a job rather than an exciting experience. From some of the books written by/about some of these people, they often sympathized with the pilots they shot down, even though their cause was, to them, relatively noble. Day after day they grabbed their brief cases and headed off to the 'office' to kill or be killed. The difference in Eve is that you get an infinite number of do-overs if you really aren't cut out for the work. You're comparing Eve, an internet spaceships game, to fighter pilots engaged in a war for survival of their country, facing the ever present threat of death every day of their young lives. You then have the gall to say the only difference is "do-overs". You need to get a grip on reality. Edit: These morality in eve threads are pathetic excuses for armchair philosophers to talk down people they don't understand all the while being mocked by "sociopaths" like myself who understand that Eve is not a place where you discover the moral nature of humanity.
PAG THEONE unf0rgiven.	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:54:00 - [27] Edited by: PAG THEONE on 16/12/2010 12:55:39 This is just a game, stop making these silly questions, if you get mad over a loss it ain't for you.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Space Pinata Interesting point. It's hard to PVP without being 'evil' (in game), but a lot of bad things in reality have reasons to be tempting that cannot be attained morally, too. No its not really hard to pvp without being evil.In my opinion anyone who goes in low or null opens themselves up to it and is free game.After all this game is about blowing up spacships. But because this game is also more than just that..high sec exists.Which allows the rpg part of this game to function.The people who hang out there looking for pvp are the ones you should be asking these questions.
Keira Matrix	Posted - 2010.12.16 13:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Space Pinata 1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course) No because I don't do it, there would have to be a good reason. Tried playing bad characters in other games but the result is always the same. Which is, near the start of the game they always end up good. Kind of annoying in some ways but I don't see anything good with being bad. Originally by: Space Pinata 1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot) Very unlikely, would have had to have had the worst day ever. Even then it's doubtful. Originally by: Space Pinata 2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"? In the real world I would never scam or take advantage of someone and would never steal from anyone. As for killing someone yep in self-defense then that would be possible (war also but would have to believe in the war).
Berzerkergang Caldari Heretic Academy	Posted - 2010.12.16 13:21:00 - [30] 1.) Never, it's a game and should be played that way. As long as you keep it within the game it should be cool and non-offensive in my opinion. Losing a ship is part of the game, personally i think that accepting it and not raging because of losing a ship should be something as well. 1b.) Never will feel bad about it. It's pixels and game mechanics ^^ 2.) Playing a game and being a ass against others because you want to and doing the same in real life will give you problems. But at some points i am a horrible, horrible person ^^. But disrupting someones life in real life and blowing up pixels in a nice fashion is a big difference. "He who knows he knows nothing, is a wise man..." -- Socrates



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