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PI: Hauling for Factories vs. Extractors

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Ishina Fel Caldari Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.19 22:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Ishina Fel on 19/12/2010 22:57:12 The removal of learning skills has earned me Interplanetary Consolidation 5 and Command Center Upgrades 5. I reckon that this is a good time to collapse all those Improved CCs and other old stuff, take a good hard look at the market trends and history, and set up six brand spanking new elite planets. However, I've only been using extractor worlds so far. I know that using factory planets is an alternative, especially in highsec. So, I want to know: - Which of the two requires less hauling absolutely? - Which of the two requires less hauling per ISK of profit? As you can see, I dislike hauling I know that prices fluctuate and no two planets are identical, so all I ask is a rough estimate. Assume that I either use Highsec worlds to make P2 products, or use these same worlds as factory worlds. I suppose it matters what tier product the factory world produces, right? - Signature? What signature?
Janiries Swordhand	Posted - 2010.12.20 00:13:00 - [2] Less Hauling: Extractor planet Less Isk per Hauling: Can't say since I don't do factory planet I seen alot of post here by people doing factory planet saying that its far the best way to make isk. I disagree, simply because I have 5 alts who each can run 5 colonies and those planets are in a WH. If you're in highsec, null or lowsec, hauling would be beneficial for those who hang around their planet all the time.
Ishina Fel Caldari Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.20 10:53:00 - [3] Hmmm... I see. I probably won't get to hang around my planets all the time, so I guess I'll run extractor worlds. That way I can leave them alone a couple of days while I'm busy in nullsec or RL or the like. Thanks! - Signature? What signature?
Veliria	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:01:00 - [4] Depends entirely on how much you can extract and how often you can keep them running. If a 1-2 hours a day is all you can do, 23hour cycle extractors are quite easy on the effort needed compared to hauling stuff every day. It does depend on hauling distance and how many tiers you want to produce. A factory planet can be put down anywhere since it doesnt have to extract any resources so you could probably put one down close to the trade hubs. Does mean you have to haul to and from your planets, whereas with extractors you only have to haul from them. However, factory planets are not limited to the resources provided by high-sec planets so if you find a nice item to produce, go for it.
Lord Grimmas Azure Freelancers	Posted - 2010.12.20 12:03:00 - [5] I run two factory planets, one doing P2 to P3 and one doing P3 to P4. The ISK is better than extracting in hisec, but the effort involved is exponentially greater. Each one requires around 20-30k m3 in materials daily(!), which means two trips to the market unless you have a freighter or Orca. This is detrimental to your desire to log in. On the other hand, I run three other planets as extracting planets manufacturing P2. The extractors run on 23 hour cycles and provide enough raw materials to keep one P2 factory running around the clock. This requires daily refreshing of extractors (a bit of a clickfest but takes less than five minutes) but produces so little in terms of actual volume that I only need to haul every couple of weeks. Of course, the ISK return from this is also much less, but it's much more friendly on my desire to play the game.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Lord Grimmas I run two factory planets, one doing P2 to P3 and one doing P3 to P4. The ISK is better than extracting in hisec, but the effort involved is exponentially greater. Each one requires around 20-30k m3 in materials daily(!), which means two trips to the market unless you have a freighter or Orca. I wonder if using multiple launchpads and spreading the links/outgoing stuff out could reduce the hauling needed. Just make like 30k m3 of space available, fill it up as much as you can and come back three days later?
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.12.20 15:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Veliria Originally by: Lord Grimmas I run two factory planets, one doing P2 to P3 and one doing P3 to P4. The ISK is better than extracting in hisec, but the effort involved is exponentially greater. Each one requires around 20-30k m3 in materials daily(!), which means two trips to the market unless you have a freighter or Orca. I wonder if using multiple launchpads and spreading the links/outgoing stuff out could reduce the hauling needed. Just make like 30k m3 of space available, fill it up as much as you can and come back three days later? Multiple launchpads would help by adding extra on-planet space. Spreading things out offers no benefit and eats more power.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.12.20 15:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Veliria Originally by: Lord Grimmas I run two factory planets, one doing P2 to P3 and one doing P3 to P4. The ISK is better than extracting in hisec, but the effort involved is exponentially greater. Each one requires around 20-30k m3 in materials daily(!), which means two trips to the market unless you have a freighter or Orca. I wonder if using multiple launchpads and spreading the links/outgoing stuff out could reduce the hauling needed. Just make like 30k m3 of space available, fill it up as much as you can and come back three days later? Multiple launchpads would help by adding extra on-planet space. Spreading things out offers no benefit and eats more power. With spreading I meant having half the factories put their results in Launchpad A, and the other half in Launchpad B.
Ishina Fel Caldari Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.20 16:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Ishina Fel on 20/12/2010 16:27:55 Originally by: Lord Grimmas I run two factory planets, one doing P2 to P3 and one doing P3 to P4. The ISK is better than extracting in hisec, but the effort involved is exponentially greater. Each one requires around 20-30k m3 in materials daily(!), which means two trips to the market unless you have a freighter or Orca. This is detrimental to your desire to log in. On the other hand, I run three other planets as extracting planets manufacturing P2. The extractors run on 23 hour cycles and provide enough raw materials to keep one P2 factory running around the clock. This requires daily refreshing of extractors (a bit of a clickfest but takes less than five minutes) but produces so little in terms of actual volume that I only need to haul every couple of weeks. Of course, the ISK return from this is also much less, but it's much more friendly on my desire to play the game. That's exactly the kind of insight I was looking for. Cheers! - Signature? What signature?
Berikath	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Ishina Fel - Which of the two requires less hauling absolutely? - Which of the two requires less hauling per ISK of profit? As you can see, I dislike hauling As said, factory planets give significantly higher ISK per time, but require MUCH more maintenance. If your priorities are first to minimize hauling and second to make ISK, extracting would be the way to go. Set up planets with extractors and several launchpads and distribute your goods between them. Processing to P1s would be strongly recommended, and processing to P2s would be an option if you REALLY wanted to reduce hauling, but it might significantly reduce profitability (since you'll have trouble having everything running all the time). * [ SIG] * Wish list for PI: One-click input routing Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ]

Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:26:00 - [11] I run 8 Improved planets on 2 accounts as a "side line" activity in low sec (0.1). In High sec, I'd just forget about extraction and accept the money is in hauling raw materials out to the factory planets and hauling back the goods. This makes money. In Low sec the extraction yield goes up quite a bit, but hauling is more hazardous. So my approach is to place all the planets in a mostly blue system. I have 7 extractor planets extracting (and processing) 4 P1 materials. These take about 2 minutes a day to reset each and handle a good 2-3 days of stock pile before needing emptied. When I CBA I haul them all to the factory planet and try and balance the goods arriving. The factory planet takes all 4 P1 materials, processes into 2 P2 materials and finally a P3 material. To run the factory planet 24/7 would require at least one hauler trip per day, as it processes a full Launchpad in about 21 hours. However, I don't bother doing that I let it go idle when I'm not around or in High sec on an ISK making / implants holiday. Still, while I don't expect to make a fortune without working at it a lot more, I have made about 40mil a month so far.... when I can be bothered to haul it back to highsec for sale that is :)
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:42:00 - [12] Second reply as I was thinking about this and I seemed to miss answered the actual question. Hauling for extractors versus factories... If you had 6 planets of extractors and an Improved extractor might take 5 days to fill the custom's hangar, which is a full Iteron 5 load, then you'd need to haul only 1 Iteron 5 load 25km3 (ish) a day, roughly. However... an improved factory planet on a small barren world can accomodate in the order of 18 processors. If they are all processing the same ingredients they will consume a full launch pad worth in less than a day. An Iteron 5 holds about 2.5 launchpads worth, so you might keep the factory planet running 24/7 with a hauler load every 2 days. But you have 6 planets. 6 factory planets will mean hauling 3 iteron 5 loads a day. The big pin that will burst your bubble is.... unless you are right outside a good market hub, you won't be able to maintain the supply required to feed 6 planets with R0 or P1 materials, certainly not of the same input material. I tried coolant with 1 planet in placid, worked fine for a few days, but I pretty much cleared out the water stock and ended up with only really expensive water remaining, no use without hauling it down from Verge or Sinq. However, factories lend themselves to highsec really well. Extraction yields are low. Hauling a lot of stuff is easy(er) in high sec. R0/P1 materials are more readily available in higher quantities the closer you are to a big hub. Extractors lend themselves to lowsec where yields are higher. But... hauling large quantities of rubbish like water around with a high risk of getting your ass handed to you means it makes sense to process the R0/P1 into something worth more money and that takes up less space, which might be worth risking hauling to market and getting killed for. :) Keeping all the planets close together (same or adjacent systems) makes the daily hauling chores take less than 30 minutes.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Greg Huff on 20/12/2010 19:57:49 Originally by: Nicky's Tomb ... Iteron 5 load 25km3 (ish) ... Toss 3 Cargohold Optimization rigs onto there and .... Boom!! 38km3 (ish)
Stormmaster Neptunius Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.21 00:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Ishina Fel Edited by: Ishina Fel on 19/12/2010 22:57:12 I reckon that this is a good time to collapse all those Improved CCs and other old stuff, take a good hard look at the market trends and history, and set up six brand spanking new elite planets. Don't waste it. With the new CC upgrade system you will be able to easily upgrade your Command Centers right on the planets, in a similar way one have been able to upgrade links. Click -> isk spent -> your Command Center is upgraded. No need to set something up, abandon colonies, buy new stuff from market, move e.t.c. You can check how it works on the test server. Also, there will be only one Command Center for each planet type on the market, called just "[planet type] Command Center".
Nicky's Tomb	Posted - 2010.12.21 10:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Greg Huff Edited by: Greg Huff on 20/12/2010 19:57:49 Originally by: Nicky's Tomb ... Iteron 5 load 25km3 (ish) ... Toss 3 Cargohold Optimization rigs onto there and .... Boom!! 38km3 (ish) Ah yes, ofc. :) However, we are both wrong, in our notation. 25km3 (cubed) is a lot more than 25,000m3. A LOT more. :)
Lord Grimmas Azure Freelancers	Posted - 2010.12.21 11:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Veliria I wonder if using multiple launchpads and spreading the links/outgoing stuff out could reduce the hauling needed. Just make like 30k m3 of space available, fill it up as much as you can and come back three days later? In fact I am doing just this. The P3 planet uses two launchpads, one for each input. The P4 planet uses three launchpads, again one for each input. The output is spread equally among the launchpads. If I did not have it set up like this, I would likely have to haul multiple times per day.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.12.21 18:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Lord Grimmas Edited by: Lord Grimmas on 21/12/2010 12:01:56 Originally by: Veliria I wonder if using multiple launchpads and spreading the links/outgoing stuff out could reduce the hauling needed. Just make like 30k m3 of space available, fill it up as much as you can and come back three days later? In fact I am doing just this. The P3 planet uses two launchpads, one for each input. The P4 planet uses three launchpads, again one for each input. The output is spread equally among the launchpads. If I did not have it set up like this, I would likely have to haul multiple times per day. This is using advanced command centers. I shudder at the thought of using elite ones. The launchpads simply do not have enough space for any kind of long-term production. You could keep some materials around inside the customs office I suppose, but even this has a limit. If you think about it, it's ridiculous that your entire planet-side colony has less storage space than an Iteron Mark V. Fix this now, CCP Well...when you take into account a Rifter is supposed to be the size of the Eiffel Tower...
Lord Grimmas Azure Freelancers	Posted - 2010.12.21 21:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Veliria Well...when you take into account a Rifter is supposed to be the size of the Eiffel Tower... Nah, it's only as big as a large jumbo... see here: linky
Berikath	Posted - 2010.12.21 23:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Lord Grimmas Edited by: Lord Grimmas on 21/12/2010 12:01:56 Originally by: Veliria I wonder if using multiple launchpads and spreading the links/outgoing stuff out could reduce the hauling needed. Just make like 30k m3 of space available, fill it up as much as you can and come back three days later? In fact I am doing just this. The P3 planet uses two launchpads, one for each input. The P4 planet uses three launchpads, again one for each input. The output is spread equally among the launchpads. If I did not have it set up like this, I would likely have to haul multiple times per day. This is using advanced command centers. I shudder at the thought of using elite ones. The launchpads simply do not have enough space for any kind of long-term production. You could keep some materials around inside the customs office I suppose, but even this has a limit. If you think about it, it's ridiculous that your entire planet-side colony has less storage space than an Iteron Mark V. Fix this now, CCP I actually am training/trained CCU 5 for just this reason. I'll probably only put like 1 more factory on each planet, and the rest of the extra capacity goes to one or two more launchpads. My goal is to have 2 days worth of mats on planet at once, and each commodity that is produced be fully supplied on-planet. :) * [ SIG] * Wish list for PI: One-click input routing Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ]
Heimer Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2010.12.22 16:52:00 - [20] Keep in mind that upgrading of CCs might be implemented soonish. ( ) <- planet (not to scale) áááááá --EhonVonnre



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