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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.28 06:46:00 -
[1]
Your game has made me a master of Excel and Open office spread sheets!
I have spread sheets for production costs, isk per hour ratios total mineral costs, and several pi flow charts on how to make various PI products such as control towers.
Well I hope you are happy, I'm taking all these excel skills and putting it on my resume to get a better job doing the exact same thing!
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.12.28 06:52:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
low noise rabble rabble
Wait till you really got hooked by this.. downloading the SQL database and writing programs in <whatever language floats your boat> you had to learn from scratch, which let your spreadsheets pale in comparison. 
support
Public Idea Tracker | 24hr PLEX |
Kalle Demos
Amarr
Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.28 07:03:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
low noise rabble rabble
Wait till you really got hooked by this.. downloading the SQL database and writing programs in <whatever language floats your boat> you had to learn from scratch, which let your spreadsheets pale in comparison.
yay im at that stage now XD
Originally by: Kool StoryBro
<---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire
Spam post removed.
Random forum moments <0> |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.28 07:59:00 -
[4]
I'm kinda scared now. I wouldn't go that far as to program.
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San Severina
Minmatar
One Point 0
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Posted - 2010.12.28 08:06:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
I'm kinda scared now. I wouldn't go that far as to program.
All programmers started somewhere Hawky, dive in, you could end up with something really handy to put on that rTsumT.
__________________________________________________
No sympathy for the Devil! Always remember that....
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Iraherag
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Posted - 2010.12.28 08:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
I'm kinda scared now. I wouldn't go that far as to program.
Dont worry, teaching yourself how to program will always result in something that looks like the work of 10 chimpanzees.
There is a reason you don't want to live in a house from an architect who "read a couple of really good books and already built some extremly cool looking houses".
I only wish people would apply the same quality standards to software... 
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.28 08:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
I'm kinda scared now. I wouldn't go that far as to program.
Oh, You will and you'll damn well enjoy it.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
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San Severina
Minmatar
One Point 0
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:21:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Dont worry, teaching yourself how to program will always result in something that looks like the work of 10 chimpanzees.
There is a reason you don't want to live in a house from an architect who "read a couple of really good books and already built some extremly cool looking houses".
I only wish people would apply the same quality standards to software...
Are you out of your Vulcan Mind? The best programmer I know, who does extremely well trouble shooting for a National telco taught himself, he started on a Commodore 64 like me, in 1979. What a long strange trip it's been! back then we didn't really have Computer Science courses, anyway pretty much all the Worlds early ground breaking SW was written by autodidactic programmers, so, please don't bother with your stuffy comparisons to crappy professionals like Architects, also - recommend you read 'The Fountain Head' by Ayn Rand. Yeah I know, she took too much speed & developed some rather alarming ideas later in life, but it's a Hell of a Book.
__________________________________________________
No sympathy for the Devil! Always remember that....
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OC 2av2
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:37:00 -
[9]
Can you share your spreadsheets with us, teach us how to use them and can we have it free, please?
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Iraherag
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Posted - 2010.12.28 09:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: San Severina
Quote:
Dont worry, teaching yourself how to program will always result in something that looks like the work of 10 chimpanzees.
There is a reason you don't want to live in a house from an architect who "read a couple of really good books and already built some extremly cool looking houses".
I only wish people would apply the same quality standards to software...
Are you out of your Vulcan Mind? The best programmer I know, who does extremely well trouble shooting for a National telco taught himself, he started on a Commodore 64 like me, in 1979. What a long strange trip it's been! back then we didn't really have Computer Science courses, anyway pretty much all the Worlds early ground breaking SW was written by autodidactic programmers, so, please don't bother with your stuffy comparisons to crappy professionals like Architects, also - recommend you read 'The Fountain Head' by Ayn Rand. Yeah I know, she took too much speed & developed some rather alarming ideas later in life, but it's a Hell of a Book.
Ha, architecture has a couple thousand years of experience and tradition on its back.
How appropriate that you would call it "crappy professionals".
Guess what, the early pioneers of flight were all crazy people doing impossible stuff (remember those muscle-powered "helicopters"?)
Does that make you want to have an autodidactic, experimenting, self-overestimating, formal-education-lacking pilot for your next flight or would you prefer someone who received the proper education?
50 years ago programming was still in its infancy and formal education basically non-existant, but that's no excuse to skip it now that it's readily available...
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Kolatha
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Posted - 2010.12.28 11:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Iraherag
Ha, architecture has a couple thousand years of experience and tradition on its back.
How appropriate that you would call it "crappy professionals".
Guess what, the early pioneers of flight were all crazy people doing impossible stuff (remember those muscle-powered "helicopters"?)
Does that make you want to have an autodidactic, experimenting, self-overestimating, formal-education-lacking pilot for your next flight or would you prefer someone who received the proper education?
50 years ago programming was still in its infancy and formal education basically non-existant, but that's no excuse to skip it now that it's readily available...
Oh and "the best <insert profession here> I know" is quite a remarkable feature.
You probably know 0.0001% of all the millions of programmers out there in the world.
If only you had told about your extensive studies earlier...
You will find that a very large portion at the very top of hi-tech and engineering fields, aerospace, computer science, architecture etc, are people who are pretty much self taught. More so with the pioneering and cutting edge developers. Robotics and aerospace development in particular are great places to find amazing self taught people because there is still so much room available for development.
This is because, being at the leading edge of technology and engineering, they have to pretty much make it up as they go and that fits quite nicely with the whole self teaching process where false limitations aren't unwittingly introduced by the educators.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.28 11:50:00 -
[12]
[yodavoice]
EVE industry leads to spreadsheets, spreadsheets lead to math and computer skills, and such skills lead to employment and an end to procrastination.
I sense great carbearism in you...
[/yodavoice]
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
_
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Iraherag
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Posted - 2010.12.28 12:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Iraherag on 28/12/2010 12:22:05
Originally by: Kolatha
Originally by: Iraherag
Ha, architecture has a couple thousand years of experience and tradition on its back.
How appropriate that you would call it "crappy professionals".
Guess what, the early pioneers of flight were all crazy people doing impossible stuff (remember those muscle-powered "helicopters"?)
Does that make you want to have an autodidactic, experimenting, self-overestimating, formal-education-lacking pilot for your next flight or would you prefer someone who received the proper education?
50 years ago programming was still in its infancy and formal education basically non-existant, but that's no excuse to skip it now that it's readily available...
Oh and "the best <insert profession here> I know" is quite a remarkable feature.
You probably know 0.0001% of all the millions of programmers out there in the world.
If only you had told about your extensive studies earlier...
You will find that a very large portion at the very top of hi-tech and engineering fields, aerospace, computer science, architecture etc, are people who are pretty much self taught. More so with the pioneering and cutting edge developers. Robotics and aerospace development in particular are great places to find amazing self taught people because there is still so much room available for development.
This is because, being at the leading edge of technology and engineering, they have to pretty much make it up as they go and that fits quite nicely with the whole self teaching process where false limitations aren't unwittingly introduced by the educators.
Right and they all got their PhD by not bothering themselves with things like educators...
I find it also quite interesting that "teaching yourself how to use excel" can be compared to and explained with "leading edge in technology and engineering".
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Voren Drait
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Posted - 2010.12.28 12:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Your game has made me a master of Excel and Open office spread sheets!
I have spread sheets for production costs, isk per hour ratios total mineral costs, and several pi flow charts on how to make various PI products such as control towers.
Well I hope you are happy, I'm taking all these excel skills and putting it on my resume to get a better job doing the exact same thing!
Me? I just play the game.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
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Posted - 2010.12.28 12:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kolatha
You will find that a very large portion at the very top of hi-tech and engineering fields, aerospace, computer science, architecture etc, are people who are pretty much self taught. More so with the pioneering and cutting edge developers. Robotics and aerospace development in particular are great places to find amazing self taught people because there is still so much room available for development.
This is because, being at the leading edge of technology and engineering, they have to pretty much make it up as they go and that fits quite nicely with the whole self teaching process where false limitations aren't unwittingly introduced by the educators.
Did I miss the link to the documentation for this "fact."
KB
Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.12.28 13:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 28/12/2010 13:04:03
Originally by: Iraherag
Originally by: Kolatha
Originally by: Iraherag
Ha, architecture has a couple thousand years of experience and tradition on its back.
How appropriate that you would call it "crappy professionals".
Guess what, the early pioneers of flight were all crazy people doing impossible stuff (remember those muscle-powered "helicopters"?)
Does that make you want to have an autodidactic, experimenting, self-overestimating, formal-education-lacking pilot for your next flight or would you prefer someone who received the proper education?
50 years ago programming was still in its infancy and formal education basically non-existant, but that's no excuse to skip it now that it's readily available...
Oh and "the best <insert profession here> I know" is quite a remarkable feature.
You probably know 0.0001% of all the millions of programmers out there in the world.
If only you had told about your extensive studies earlier...
You will find that a very large portion at the very top of hi-tech and engineering fields, aerospace, computer science, architecture etc, are people who are pretty much self taught. More so with the pioneering and cutting edge developers. Robotics and aerospace development in particular are great places to find amazing self taught people because there is still so much room available for development.
This is because, being at the leading edge of technology and engineering, they have to pretty much make it up as they go and that fits quite nicely with the whole self teaching process where false limitations aren't unwittingly introduced by the educators.
Right and they all got their PhD by not bothering themselves with things like educators...
I guess his point is that many leading figureheads didn't actually graduate and still managed to be in the forefront of scientific and technological development. Studying in a university prepares you to do that kind of independant research and work that is required to be on the cutting edge of your field, but that is not the only way to get there and can even become a limitating factor in your thinking, since critical and unconventional thinking isn't often rewarded in academic community.
A place of higher learning is also an institution, so there might not even be an opportunity to study some of the latest/controversial/unorthodox/unpopular fields in science/tech. You're basicly on your own there whether or not you have a degree or not. Studying in an institution is good and will help you, but you don't really learn anything unique, that you can't learn by studying yourself. It just makes things easier since the research was done for you by a researcher and condenced to easily digestable form by your educator, you also get help when you hit a difficult spot and you can get access to equipment most private persons can't. All this helps, but isn't the only way to get results.
As for famous self taught people. Bill Gates(college dropout), Alexander Graham Bell(college dropout), Michael Dell(as in dell computers, college dropout), Thomas Alva Edison(self-taught, "too stupid for school") , Wright brothers(Self-taught), Frank Lloyd Wright(Already well-known during his lifetime, Wright was recognized in 1991 by the American Institute of Architects as "the greatest American architect of all time"., dropout), Vivien Thomas(Cardiac surgery pioneer, highschool only), ect. ad infinitum.
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Bollox Reader
Farkistan GED Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.28 13:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Iraherag
Edited by: Iraherag on 28/12/2010 09:46:57
Originally by: San Severina
Quote:
Dont worry, teaching yourself how to program will always result in something that looks like the work of 10 chimpanzees.
There is a reason you don't want to live in a house from an architect who "read a couple of really good books and already built some extremly cool looking houses".
I only wish people would apply the same quality standards to software...
Are you out of your Vulcan Mind? The best programmer I know, who does extremely well trouble shooting for a National telco taught himself, he started on a Commodore 64 like me, in 1979. What a long strange trip it's been! back then we didn't really have Computer Science courses, anyway pretty much all the Worlds early ground breaking SW was written by autodidactic programmers, so, please don't bother with your stuffy comparisons to crappy professionals like Architects, also - recommend you read 'The Fountain Head' by Ayn Rand. Yeah I know, she took too much speed & developed some rather alarming ideas later in life, but it's a Hell of a Book.
Ha, architecture has a couple thousand years of experience and tradition on its back.
How appropriate that you would call it "crappy professionals".
Guess what, the early pioneers of flight were all crazy people doing impossible stuff (remember those muscle-powered "helicopters"?)
Does that make you want to have an autodidactic, experimenting, self-overestimating, formal-education-lacking pilot for your next flight or would you prefer someone who received the proper education?
50 years ago programming was still in its infancy and formal education basically non-existant, but that's no excuse to skip it now that it's readily available...
Oh and "the best <insert profession here> I know" is quite a remarkable feature.
You probably know 0.0001% of all the millions of programmers out there in the world.
If only you had told about your extensive studies earlier...
I know a managing engineer at an aerospace defense firm who has a degree from one of the top engineering schools in the US. He told me that for working with the paperwork side of government contracts the degree is essential, but for design work no degree program tops self-taught mechanical engineers.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Green-Core
The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.28 13:39:00 -
[18]
<-- self taught programmer here.
Yes, I have a Master's Degree.
No, it is not in programming.
So it is possible to be well educated, and still be self taught in a different field.
--Vel
I'm more of a care-badger. |
HoTwAfFeL
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Posted - 2010.12.28 13:50:00 -
[19]
you will find that many decent programmers are self taught since the ones that went to uni for it do it by the book and suck.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.28 14:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bollox Reader
I know a managing engineer at an aerospace defense firm who has a degree from one of the top engineering schools in the US. He told me that for working with the paperwork side of government contracts the degree is essential, but for design work no degree program tops self-taught mechanical engineers.
I would like to point out that many University educated mechanical engineers were self taught or lightly guided before they got accepted to a University for their professional development. Most future engineers do not get accepted to serious engineering school without a fairly heavy background in the practice of machine building; their are acceptations to every rule though.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.28 17:57:00 -
[21]
Actually my degree is in Geophysics, so every time i mine or hear about the minerals in game I kinda laugh a little cause I know their RL equivilants.
Aside from that its not that I don't know how to program its the OMG why is this still seg faulting?
I guess if i really wanted to be crazy i could so something in C with nested x80/86 assembly.
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Shasz
New Eden Renegades
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Posted - 2010.12.28 20:10:00 -
[22]
I'd rather hire the guy (or gal) that was genuinely interested in programming and learned it as a hobby than the kid that picked computer science out of a list of high-paying (*snort*) jobs that are in great demand and decided he'd major in that.
I know a guy out there with a CS degree that can't program his way into a paper bag, let alone out of it. He just doesn't get it. He passed all his courses (somehow) but seriously doesn't get it.
.02
___________________________________
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.12.28 20:35:00 -
[23]
ITT: Only people who learned the way I did are good at their job.
(optional: only people who learned the other way are bad)
-
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.28 20:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shasz
I'd rather hire the guy (or gal) that was genuinely interested in programming and learned it as a hobby than the kid that picked computer science out of a list of high-paying (*snort*) jobs that are in great demand and decided he'd major in that.
I know a guy out there with a CS degree that can't program his way into a paper bag, let alone out of it. He just doesn't get it. He passed all his courses (somehow) but seriously doesn't get it.
.02
See at my school where i went, if you were a CS major you had to program, and every programming class, you had a programming project, hell you even had to write a compiler for one of the classes, and it had to work by compiling some basic code.
Anyway back on topic, I added on all my excel skills to my resume and sent out 3 new ones today to apply for jobs! EvE online, its more than a game, its a job training tool!
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Amber Accelerando
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Posted - 2010.12.28 21:34:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Amber Accelerando on 28/12/2010 21:34:43
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Iraherag
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Posted - 2010.12.28 22:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shasz
I'd rather hire the guy (or gal) that was genuinely interested in programming and learned it as a hobby than the kid that picked computer science out of a list of high-paying (*snort*) jobs that are in great demand and decided he'd major in that.
I know a guy out there with a CS degree that can't program his way into a paper bag, let alone out of it. He just doesn't get it. He passed all his courses (somehow) but seriously doesn't get it.
.02
"God, I don't understand all the fuss about studying medicine.
I mean, how hard can it be to write a prescription FFS?!"
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laksmi2
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Posted - 2010.12.28 22:29:00 -
[27]
building your own spreadsheets will result in looking at the processes in detail and really understand them.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.28 22:39:00 -
[28]
I agree with the old farts: "computer science" is the most inaccurately named field of study since "geometry". 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Iraherag
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Posted - 2010.12.28 22:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
I guess his point is that many leading figureheads didn't actually graduate and still managed to be in the forefront of scientific and technological development. Studying in a university prepares you to do that kind of independant research and work that is required to be on the cutting edge of your field, but that is not the only way to get there and can even become a limitating factor in your thinking, since critical and unconventional thinking isn't often rewarded in academic community.
A place of higher learning is also an institution, so there might not even be an opportunity to study some of the latest/controversial/unorthodox/unpopular fields in science/tech. You're basicly on your own there whether or not you have a degree or not. Studying in an institution is good and will help you, but you don't really learn anything unique, that you can't learn by studying yourself. It just makes things easier since the research was done for you by a researcher and condenced to easily digestable form by your educator, you also get help when you hit a difficult spot and you can get access to equipment most private persons can't. All this helps, but isn't the only way to get results.
As for famous self taught people. Bill Gates(college dropout), Alexander Graham Bell(college dropout), Michael Dell(as in dell computers, college dropout), Thomas Alva Edison(self-taught, "too stupid for school") , Wright brothers(Self-taught), Frank Lloyd Wright(Already well-known during his lifetime, Wright was recognized in 1991 by the American Institute of Architects as "the greatest American architect of all time"., dropout), Vivien Thomas(Cardiac surgery pioneer, highschool only), ect. ad infinitum.
Here's an interesting concept: Education is not having a sheet of paper saying "Degree" but actually having the knowledge that earned you that.
Now, a dropout is someone who might or might not have been able to receive a degree but he definitely received (some of) the education.
As opposed to someone who "doesn't need that" - he received no education at all.
Don't confuse education with certification!
You can have the former without the latter and even the other way around.
BTW, the people you listed are all great examples for spending years working with (and sometimes for) other people in a field to learn and grow.
Also mentioning people who attended some rather exclusive private schools and top-notch institutions (even if they didn't graduate) is hardly close to "I taught myself how to program **** on the Internetz".
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Not Agirl
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Posted - 2010.12.28 23:35:00 -
[30]
*grabs popcorn*
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Winters Chill
Amarr
The Die Sect
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Posted - 2010.12.28 23:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Not Agirl
*grabs popcorn*
*Straw slurps on a giant paper cup of pepsi*
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OC 2av2
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Posted - 2010.12.29 00:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Shasz
I'd rather hire the guy (or gal) that was genuinely interested in programming and learned it as a hobby than the kid that picked computer science out of a list of high-paying (*snort*) jobs that are in great demand and decided he'd major in that.
I know a guy out there with a CS degree that can't program his way into a paper bag, let alone out of it. He just doesn't get it. He passed all his courses (somehow) but seriously doesn't get it.
.02
See at my school where i went, if you were a CS major you had to program, and every programming class, you had a programming project, hell you even had to write a compiler for one of the classes, and it had to work by compiling some basic code.
Anyway back on topic, I added on all my excel skills to my resume and sent out 3 new ones today to apply for jobs! EvE online, its more than a game, its a job training tool!
Of cause, EvE is more than a game... You are saying nothing new...
Did you get it only now?
Without doubt, I play it only because of that!
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.29 00:13:00 -
[33]
While i wont hand out the specifics of my spreadsheets, as they are mine muhahaha I can give you an idea of my spread sheets
manufacturing
BPO cost
Minerals needed
market price of minerals (jita / Dodixie)
Minerals * market price = total base cost to build
manufacturing time * isk per hour npc corp 8.0 standing + total base cost = total manufacturing cost
OR
manufacturing time * isk per hour of pos fuel + total base cost = total manufacturing cost
Current market cost
total manufactring =cost - market = green means profit, red means loss
Bpo cost / green = amount needed to be sold to pay off bpo.
I mean there is a lot more in my spreadsheets but this is just a rough idea of what mine are.
Ok so how do these programmers do it.
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Shasz
New Eden Renegades
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Posted - 2010.12.29 13:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
Originally by: Shasz
I'd rather hire the guy (or gal) that was genuinely interested in programming and learned it as a hobby than the kid that picked computer science out of a list of high-paying (*snort*) jobs that are in great demand and decided he'd major in that.
I know a guy out there with a CS degree that can't program his way into a paper bag, let alone out of it. He just doesn't get it. He passed all his courses (somehow) but seriously doesn't get it.
.02
See at my school where i went, if you were a CS major you had to program, and every programming class, you had a programming project, hell you even had to write a compiler for one of the classes, and it had to work by compiling some basic code.
Anyway back on topic, I added on all my excel skills to my resume and sent out 3 new ones today to apply for jobs! EvE online, its more than a game, its a job training tool!
Yeah, I had a lot of the same training - my favorite project was writing a Scheme interpreter in Scheme, and the ultimate test was "can it run itself?". But "the guy" I mentioned didn't go to my school either.
I'm just saying anyone can lie/cheat/steal/bribe his way into a degree by using others' work. The degree doesn't guarantee the person actually paid attention and learned something, and the absence of the degree and formal training doesn't mean the person hasn't learned how to program properly.
/me waits for the discussion to evolve into "Programming is as much an art as it is a science..."
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