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buying a freighter vs building one?

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Gagaliya BaLaBoom	Posted - 2011.01.01 20:00:00 - [1] Hi, i am at a point in my skill training that my mining skills are close to maxed. My biggest problem right now is moving the stuff i mined. So the next logical step for me is to work on a freighter. Now I looked at the market, there are very rarely a freighter for sell, and they go for around 700 million isk. I am wondering if it make senses for me to get into the freighter building business. I understand it's a very long dedication to get all the skills up and running. I guess the questions are 1) Is it worth it to build one instead of just buying one on the open market 2) Does anyone know the approx base building cost of a freighter in today's market assuming required skills are within 10% of max efficiency. thanks
Chakarr Anarchistic Carebears Bloodbound.	Posted - 2011.01.01 20:44:00 - [2] Edited by: Chakarr on 01/01/2011 20:47:25 They go for 700million(ish) isk because that's how much the raw materials cost + blueprint costs + a profit for the manufacturer. Building it yourself will still 'cost' you around 700million(ish) isk when you factor in the 'cost' of BPs & your own time that you will spend faffing around making it. Time is money. Minerals you mine yourself are not free. If you seriously want to make them for a living then I recommend more research, no-one is going to tell you what you want to know (manufacturers at that level don't readily share secrets)- as the only caps you can build in hisec I imagine the market is pretty competative already TBH. Good luck. EDIT - spelling & go to Jita, plenty there for sale....
Emporer Norton	Posted - 2011.01.01 20:57:00 - [3] Not sure about profit building them but if you want to will need all researched bpo's think is 4 parts for a freighter so about 5-6 billion for bpo's from npc's plus 2-3 monthes research in a pos
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.02 03:10:00 - [4] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 02/01/2011 03:15:45 The Capital Ship Construction skill, which is required even if you build from BPC, is 67.5 million. Do the math. Add-up all the skill, material, and BPC costs before you decide. Capital ship construction Tool
Scarabeus Sacer	Posted - 2011.01.02 03:35:00 - [5] Buy it. Unless you have the BPO, you wont be able to make it cheaper. Unless you make these all the time and own the BPOs you wont make it cheaper..not to mention the enormous time it takes to make it.
Gagaliya BaLaBoom	Posted - 2011.01.02 05:53:00 - [6] thanks guys, wouldnt it be nice if everything in eve are as clear ;)
Celgar Thurn Minmatar Department 10	Posted - 2011.01.02 11:45:00 - [7] I'll just muddy the waters for you then. I'm in the same postion as you currently in that I need a Fenrir (freighter) for logistical reasons. In terms of Minmatar space Fenrir are easily available to purchase although the price has risen in recent times to 720 to 740 million approx. I would suggest not going into the freighter building business as there seems to be glut of supply.I don't/probably won't be selling them so I have no axe to grind. On the other hand I am in the process of building one myself for personal use and expect to make a saving although I don't know how much yet. I am going to build other large 'items' so the Capital Ship Construction skillbook cost can be spread in my case. Costings so far are: Fenrir one-run BPC ME3 40 mil.(excluding 5 mil donation!);Cap.Armor Plates BPCx3 4.8 mil ;Cap.Cargo Bay BPCx17 42.5 mil ;Cap Construction Parts BPCx10 31 mil;Cap Propulsion Engine BPCx6 15 mil.So thats 133.3 mil excluding the skillbook so far.You have to shop around for good prices on the BPC's but they are about if you look.
Teh Supah Smokers' Heaven	Posted - 2011.01.02 13:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Teh Supah on 02/01/2011 13:37:02 Edited by: Teh Supah on 02/01/2011 13:35:31 Originally by: Celgar Thurn I'll just muddy the waters for you then. I'm in the same postion as you currently in that I need a Fenrir (freighter) for logistical reasons. In terms of Minmatar space Fenrir are easily available to purchase although the price has risen in recent times to 720 to 740 million approx. I would suggest not going into the freighter building business as there seems to be glut of supply.I don't/probably won't be selling them so I have no axe to grind. On the other hand I am in the process of building one myself for personal use and expect to make a saving although I don't know how much yet. I am going to build other large 'items' so the Capital Ship Construction skillbook cost can be spread in my case. Costings so far are: Fenrir one-run BPC ME3 40 mil.(excluding 5 mil donation!);Cap.Armor Plates BPCx3 4.8 mil ;Cap.Cargo Bay BPCx17 42.5 mil ;Cap Construction Parts BPCx10 31 mil;Cap Propulsion Engine BPCx6 15 mil.So thats 133.3 mil excluding the skillbook so far.You have to shop around for good prices on the BPC's but they are about if you look. You've just overpaid for your Fenrir. With all BPC's at ME 5 the mineral cost is 582 mil or more. So your total cost is 715 mil + the time you'll spend to get it sorted (oh no, wait, the time is free, or is it?). Not including the skillbooks. They go for 699 mil in Jita.
Mr Dilkington	Posted - 2011.01.02 14:31:00 - [9] Edited by: Mr Dilkington on 02/01/2011 14:31:55 It works out much cheaper to just use a courier contract with a low reward. Quote: Time is money. Minerals you mine yourself are not free. depends if you value your time or not tbh, minerals afk mined may as well be free.
Zifrian Solar Nexus. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2011.01.02 15:18:00 - [10] Easier and cheaper to buy. I thought about doing this as well but even if you buy a BPC pack on contracts, you still won't come out ahead. I'm going to build a jump freighter and I still will buy the T1 freighter.

Nikolai Kondratiev Sphere Design Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.02 15:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Mr Dilkington Edited by: Mr Dilkington on 02/01/2011 14:31:55 It works out much cheaper to just use a courier contract with a low reward. Quote: Time is money. Minerals you mine yourself are not free. depends if you value your time or not tbh, minerals afk mined may as well be free. Even if you have 50 hulk-bots cleaning the entire region all day long they're still not free. If you have the choice between selling the minerals 700m or spending a week or two manufacturing a freighter sold 705m on market, you still only save 5m from building the freighter. _ Ore Table
Master Flakattack	Posted - 2011.01.02 16:32:00 - [12] It's funny, I just went through this a few weeks ago for a Charon. Building yourself one, if you aren't already in the industry of building freighters, is rarely, if ever, cost effective. And that's just the money. The time lost isn't worth what you save. The time you had factory slots tied up building cap parts for a build that will take up to two weeks is worth so much more than that... Oh, and let me guess, you're mining the minerals yourself? lol... better margins elsewhere friend.
Celgar Thurn Minmatar Department 10	Posted - 2011.01.03 11:23:00 - [13] Thank you to 'Teh Super' and others for the largely negative comments. 1) I have bought parts BPC with larger than optimum ME values so ore cost will be less than Teh Super's calculation. I haven't worked out out the ore cost but 'I think' there will be a saving. 2) For us 'new people' to the world of EVE there is always the joy of crafting ships etc for its own sake. Remember 'fun' ? 3) I realise,acknowledge,and totally accept the mantra that mined ore is not 'free'. 4) I am relatively new to the game,am not set up fully,and therefore my manufacturing slots may not be needed for other tasks yet so making the parts myself is not a problem.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.03 13:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Celgar Thurn 1) I have bought parts BPC with larger than optimum ME values so ore cost will be less than Teh Super's calculation. I haven't worked out out the ore cost but 'I think' there will be a saving. You really should try the calculator I linked above (scroll up).
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2011.01.03 17:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Joe SMASH on 03/01/2011 17:17:54 As a capital ship builder who does a fair share of freighters I feel I can give my 2 cents. If you do not own every BPO (4 component + ship) then you are NOT making a profit by building yourself. You might get away with a 10% profit by owning the 4 component BPOs and buying the freighter BPC, however 10% profit on a half-billion ISK investment is not worth my, your or anyone's time. There are plenty of T1 items that will net you 50%+ profit over mineral costs that use far less investment and far less time to build. Use the minerals for a freighter to build a crap ton of highly profitable T1 items, sell those items, buy freighter. In the long run you will make more money and will have made an overall better investment with your ISK. All that said... If you have access to researched BPOs of all capital components and ships, then you are looking at very healthy profit margins. Too bad about nocxium though. That is driving build costs on everything up and the market is lagging a bit behind. EDIT: To stave off the "Your initial costs are higher because of BPO investment" people, here is my counterpoint. BPOs (T1) are as good as cash in Eve. Researched BPOs will always sell for at least their initial NPC costs. So only real investment is research time. Which I feel I have more than recouped, especially because the research POS was online long before PI existed and was taken down before PI as well when I completed all my BPOs. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Haul All	Posted - 2011.01.03 17:53:00 - [16] Unless you have the BPO's for every single component AND the freighter, buy one, hands down. Will cost you much less and you will get it MUCH faster.
Tellenta Gallente Pastry Productions Inc. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2011.01.04 00:23:00 - [17] If you can get the minerals and the BPC (with good ME) set for cheap you can have a tidy savings. However it takes dumb luck and a ** ton of hauling. I built my Freighter a long long time ago for the net savings of 50 mill, not much at all however I built it as a side job dedicating 2-4 production slots as I wasn't in a hurry to acquire. When I built my Anshar it was a totally different story, I saved about 1.5 billion through doing my own reactions. It was mostly dumb luck however as there was a market fluke in my favor which allowed me to make some of the higher costing reactions at a ~%50 savings. A sure fire way to check if building something yourself might** be cost effective is to punch in the numbers at sell order price (round up the pennies) in Jita. If it is a push or you are saving cash going by buy order and should net you a reasonable savings. However, capital ships take a while to produce and I've never found Carriers, Dreadnoughts, or Freighters to be worth building simply due to the time investment, I see them mostly as something good to produce if you have the BPO's and produce in quantity a one time shot is in short a waste of your time especially if you don't have a freighter as there is a lot of minerals to be moved and if you are cost cutting you'll be chasing down minerals that people sold you through buy orders. insert I mined them myself jibe of course the detractors of that claim seem to claim the value of the mineral is the sell order price, which is not the case at all. Ignore those people, they are just using economic lingo they actually fail to fully understand. Also before someone pulls the opportunity cost card One of the costs is not doing PI and mining ice to feed your personal tech moon. People make their isk their own way, if they get their kicks shooting a rock all day good for them, that means I don't have to.
Ave Volta Red Frog Freight Red-Frog	Posted - 2011.01.04 00:29:00 - [18] You may not need to buy or build a freighter at all. Consider using Red Frog Freight for hauling your mins or ore to market. Check the site I linked above to see what price you would be looking at per trip. In most cases you would have to make a ton of trips to equal the cost of 600 or 700m for a freighter. All the while that capital could be working for you somewhere else more effective. Remeber, freighters are slow, and time is money, so let us haul for you. -------------------------------- chown -R us:us /yourbase
Jane Jacobs	Posted - 2011.01.05 15:18:00 - [19] The builders and business moguls always have the same argument: minerals are not free and time is money. These arguments are valid from their viewpoint. But they operate through production and make profits by margins, and most of the previous comments are true. However, there is a different calculus for though of us who have yet to decode the isk making secrets of EVE. For us, we dont have a billion isk in our pockets, and spending 700million on a freighter is a difficult proposition. So would it not make more sense to spend the 150million on bpcs and then mine the minerals for their production. The answer is yes! Of course you will not set-up a freighter building business in this manner. But for us poor-folk, we become richer by 550 million isk. All you spent was time. Time mining, time building. Why add in all these other costs like skills, etc. That is only talk to discourage you from doing it. The skill does not go away. You can use it again and again and again. Skills should not be included in production costs for us poor-folk. That is nothing but a shell game they use for distraction. If you only have 200 million in your wallet, and you buy the bpc pack (150million) for the freighter, and then mine the minerals and build it, you will have 50 million left plus a freighter in the hanger worth 700 million. Now if you sell the freighter you will have 750million in your wallet. Hmm, maybe do it again. Spend 150 mil, build another, sell. Now you have 600 mil in your wallet plus a freighter in the hangar. It is true you will not be able to compete efficiency wise according to the spreadsheet jockeys, but in the end your wallet will be fatter. There is a reason there is a market for bpc packs of this nature.
You What Smokers' Heaven	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:57:00 - [20] No! Because if you have 200 mil and you buy BPC's for 150 mil and then mine freighter's worth of minerals is not any different than having 200mil and mining freighter worth of minerals and selling them. But I can tell you that in the end you'll spend less time to get to the same point which is having a freighter. If you were to buy minerals on the market and build the freighter yourself than yes, you're losing the minerals margin (one between what you could have if you sold them and what you have to pay if you buy them off the market)

Zifrian Solar Nexus. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2011.01.05 20:14:00 - [21] Jane, bpc packs exist because your thinking isn't correct and people capitalize on that. Let's use your example but with two different paths. One, is the path you described. The result is 50 mil and a freighter worth 700mil. Total assets = 750mil. I'll take the other path. For sake of argument, let's assume we both mine exactly the same minerals in the same unit of time. First, I save the 150mil on the pack and mine the, let's say 600 mil on minerals (the margin on profit for freighters isn't this big though). I sell them on the market. Now I have 800mil. I buy the same freighter for 700mill and my total assets = 800mil. 50 more than you. None of this takes into account the building time of the freighter either. If you build it and I buy it, I can get to work trading and making a return on my investment now, while you have to wait a few weeks. To throw another log on, assume you mine exactly the materials you need for the freighter, which includes low profit per time unit ores and I only mine those ores that give me the highest profit. My ability to get to 700mil is now faster than you and I get my freighter even earlier. In short, buy a freighter.
Tellenta Gallente Pastry Productions Inc. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Zifrian Jane, bpc packs exist because your thinking isn't correct and people capitalize on that. Let's use your example but with two different paths. One, is the path you described. The result is 50 mil and a freighter worth 700mil. Total assets = 750mil. I'll take the other path. For sake of argument, let's assume we both mine exactly the same minerals in the same unit of time. First, I save the 150mil on the pack and mine the, let's say 600 mil on minerals (the margin on profit for freighters isn't this big though). I sell them on the market. Now I have 800mil. I buy the same freighter for 700mill and my total assets = 800mil. 50 more than you. None of this takes into account the building time of the freighter either. If you build it and I buy it, I can get to work trading and making a return on my investment now, while you have to wait a few weeks. To throw another log on, assume you mine exactly the materials you need for the freighter, which includes low profit per time unit ores and I only mine those ores that give me the highest profit. My ability to get to 700mil is now faster than you and I get my freighter even earlier. In short, buy a freighter. This is based on the errant conclusion that mineral cost = ship cost. At most I would place the freighter around 500-600 mill in minerals (depending on whether you're willing to hop regions). From my experience the average BPC sets usually will net a neutral. As in cost you the same as making it yourself thereby buying from market is the better idea. However if you manage to find a BPC set with a good ME (it happens) that is the one you contemplate buying, the average bpc sets are basically trash in contract form. Sadly I don't have hard numbers and if I did they would be 2 years out of date for the freighter and 11 months for the anshar. But then again trit was more expencive when I built mine. So the standard BPC set would be 100 mill for set 550-600 mill in minerals An actual good BPC set would be 100 mill for set 500-550 mill in minerals. Irregardless the time investment makes making the freighter kinda :argh: and if you want to put up with the mineral acquisition and the significant amount of time in production for a measly 50-100 mill savings that's great, but I bet you don't do that again I know I won't. Especially in the case of freighters and carriers, and most of the time dreads. The isk savings vs. production effort and time is aggravating. If you're incapable of maintaining a healthy wallet create an isk holding alt and hide isk from yourself until you have enough. So I guess my advice would be as follows: Do you want the experience on how to build capital ships first hand? If yes: buy a bpc set and go to town! If unsure, or no: buy the damn ship already.
Kharylien Gallente Masked Rider Project	Posted - 2011.01.07 00:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Tellenta Do you want the experience on how to build capital ships first hand? If yes: buy a bpc set and go to town! If unsure, or no: buy the damn ship already. I agree with this. And hey, I get a sentimental attachment to things I go to great effort to build for myself, and if I'd done that with my Orca I bought a few months ago, I wouldn't have wanted to sell it for 100% profit the other day now prices have spiked and I don't really need it right now (or for the foreseeable future)...
Zifrian Solar Nexus. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2011.01.07 00:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Tellenta This is based on the errant conclusion that mineral cost = ship cost. At most I would place the freighter around 500-600 mill in minerals (depending on whether you're willing to hop regions). I'm not sure it's "errant" but just an assumption that I left out. Basically, all things being equal. Assume I could get the same bp packs another could for the same price. Furthermore, hopping regions to get minerals for a freighter probably would require....wait for it....a freighter :p I ran some numbers and used 200 ME on each cap blueprint and 3 ME on the Obelisk, basically ideal conditions. Even with decent mineral prices you still about break even. Maybe, maybe save 10-20mil if you could buy the mats on the market through buy orders (this isn't the argument at hand though because in the example I talked about mining). So the time and PITA argument really is the major factor I guess. I suggest buying cap ships unless you are interested in going into cap production. Freighters are cap ships.


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