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The regulation of mining

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Saju Somtaaw Gallente Department of Defence Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2011.01.10 03:42:00 - [31] Lets follow the chain of events this would set off should we? Increased start-up for mining->Fewer miners Ok, so far not that bad as those that remain get to sell their ore/mins for more Increased mineral costs->Increased ship/mod costs Starting to be a bit of a problem. And don't say competition will keep producers prices down near current levels, as already a lot of items are going for a small profit margin Increased cost for for ships/mods->Harder to replace Now were at the meat of the issue if that battle-cruiser will take you a 3+ days to replace, while risking another ship that might take just as long or longer how likely are you to risk it? Sure it might lead to smaller ships being more prevalent in PvP but the end result could be no one PvPs as they can't afford it. Congratulations you just killed EvE. Of course given chaos theory theirs no way to tell for sure what will happen, but this scenario is as likely as the next. ---- --- ---
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.10 03:43:00 - [32] Not on your life! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Think that about takes care of that.
Steveir	Posted - 2011.01.10 03:43:00 - [33] If there is a problem with macro mining - and I have no idea how much of this goes on, then it make sense to deal with the problem. Since I would like to see a bit of skill introduced into mining anyway; how about a nice targetting scanner that would require a "human" to assess where the vein of ore was in the 'roid. Surely it would be possible to come up with something that was bot proof.
Valarre	Posted - 2011.01.10 03:49:00 - [34] The cost on ships is a different issue that should be addressed by ccp. The issue is that building material requirements on all ships is too high anyways. Another massive issue is that T2 BPO's aren't available via npcs at a fair market value. I would hope that if CCP were to place a system like this in game, they would adress the other issues as well or else you may be right it might pose a problem. However it may not because we aren't keeping people from mining are we? We are just regulating how they do it.
Orpheus Terminus	Posted - 2011.01.10 03:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Steveir If there is a problem with macro mining - and I have no idea how much of this goes on, then it make sense to deal with the problem. Since I would like to see a bit of skill introduced into mining anyway; how about a nice targetting scanner that would require a "human" to assess where the vein of ore was in the 'roid. Surely it would be possible to come up with something that was bot proof. I would say 90% of specialized miners either bot, have tried botting, have thought about botting and will try it/attempt to. This isn't counting new players with not much S{ in it or haven't been doing it for while. Anyway, it goes on a lot.
Valarre	Posted - 2011.01.10 03:54:00 - [36] Originally by: Steveir If there is a problem with macro mining - and I have no idea how much of this goes on, then it make sense to deal with the problem. Since I would like to see a bit of skill introduced into mining anyway; how about a nice targetting scanner that would require a "human" to assess where the vein of ore was in the 'roid. Surely it would be possible to come up with something that was bot proof. That or I've had ideas where there are npc patrols (like customs agents), who go from belt to belt and will transmit a message to you asking you a code, you verify the code back and they leave you alone. If you are away from the computer temporarily they will warp disrupt you for 15 mins or until you reply back. If no reply they destroy your ship. Any rats in a belt who attack your ship while being questioned by customs will trigger the customs to kill the npcs just in case you left temporarily for a bio break or something.
Orpheus Terminus	Posted - 2011.01.10 04:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Valarre Originally by: Steveir If there is a problem with macro mining - and I have no idea how much of this goes on, then it make sense to deal with the problem. Since I would like to see a bit of skill introduced into mining anyway; how about a nice targetting scanner that would require a "human" to assess where the vein of ore was in the 'roid. Surely it would be possible to come up with something that was bot proof. That or I've had ideas where there are npc patrols (like customs agents), who go from belt to belt and will transmit a message to you asking you a code, you verify the code back and they leave you alone. If you are away from the computer temporarily they will warp disrupt you for 15 mins or until you reply back. If no reply they destroy your ship. Any rats in a belt who attack your ship while being questioned by customs will trigger the customs to kill the npcs just in case you left temporarily for a bio break or something. So customs will guard you while you afk for 15 minutes?
Valarre	Posted - 2011.01.10 04:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Orpheus Terminus Originally by: Valarre Originally by: Steveir If there is a problem with macro mining - and I have no idea how much of this goes on, then it make sense to deal with the problem. Since I would like to see a bit of skill introduced into mining anyway; how about a nice targetting scanner that would require a "human" to assess where the vein of ore was in the 'roid. Surely it would be possible to come up with something that was bot proof. That or I've had ideas where there are npc patrols (like customs agents), who go from belt to belt and will transmit a message to you asking you a code, you verify the code back and they leave you alone. If you are away from the computer temporarily they will warp disrupt you for 15 mins or until you reply back. If no reply they destroy your ship. Any rats in a belt who attack your ship while being questioned by customs will trigger the customs to kill the npcs just in case you left temporarily for a bio break or something. So customs will guard you while you afk for 15 minutes? hmmm well dunno just an idea. :) But possibly.
Ildryn do you -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.01.10 04:39:00 - [39] Give the Russians and the Chinese their own instance. Let them macro themselves silly and rmt to each other. Now that most of the macros/bots are gone. Eve can now become more of what it was meant to be instead of a rmt heaven.
Lord Mathious	Posted - 2011.01.10 04:48:00 - [40] umm no all this would do is rise the price of every thing on the market I would not mind CCP flaging macros as targets any one can attack any where that would be fun
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2011.01.10 04:52:00 - [41] Edited by: Stella SGP on 10/01/2011 04:55:14 Originally by: Valarre Actually this is only partially true. The botting part is true but most of the bots in 0.0 are ratting bots, not mining bots. Do some alliances macro mine in 0.0? Probably, however I can tell you without a doubt, most of the macro mining in this game happens in Empire Space. Besides larges alliances already have the gravy train by renting systems to corporations, among other things that net far more capital than macro mining in 0.0 would. Law enforcement sucks overall, however there are exceptions, and I believe that macro mining is one of them. Macro mining effects all aspects in game, why would we choose to ignore it? And you conveniently chose to ignore macro ratting and crack down on macro mining? Edit - Macro ratting is much more harmful to the economy because they inject ISK whereas mining only creates ores and prices for it is determined by demand.
Valarre	Posted - 2011.01.10 05:26:00 - [42] Edited by: Valarre on 10/01/2011 05:30:49 Originally by: Stella SGP Edited by: Stella SGP on 10/01/2011 04:55:14 Originally by: Valarre Actually this is only partially true. The botting part is true but most of the bots in 0.0 are ratting bots, not mining bots. Do some alliances macro mine in 0.0? Probably, however I can tell you without a doubt, most of the macro mining in this game happens in Empire Space. Besides larges alliances already have the gravy train by renting systems to corporations, among other things that net far more capital than macro mining in 0.0 would. Law enforcement sucks overall, however there are exceptions, and I believe that macro mining is one of them. Macro mining effects all aspects in game, why would we choose to ignore it? And you conveniently chose to ignore macro ratting and crack down on macro mining? Edit - Macro ratting is much more harmful to the economy because they inject ISK whereas mining only creates ores and prices for it is determined by demand. This is very true, but I don't have any bright ideas for fighting ratting macros. Which is why I'm not writing much on the subject :) ACtually this argument can be said for both things. Looted items, like officer mods and such are also governed through supply and demand. The only thing not governed and that is debatable is the bounty given for killing the rats.
Valarre	Posted - 2011.01.10 05:36:00 - [43] either way isk is isk whether you have to sell something to get it, or as isk through the bounty system. straight isk just gets rid of having to transport goods to a trade hub to sell items. In fact I would be willing to bet that the bounty isk really isn't even the meat and potatoes of that operation. It is in fact looting, transporting, and then selling those goods after the kill. Ratting macros are so complex now a days. I read a thread that explains how they can have haulers, looters, and salvagers clean up the mess after the other bots kill the rats. They can also apparently see when a red has entered the system.

CCP Spitfire	Posted - 2011.01.10 07:40:00 - [44] Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'. Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.01.10 10:53:00 - [45] Edited by: Horizonist on 10/01/2011 10:55:49 OP, thanks for the suggestion. It is good but has its flaws (as do all ideas), but I see something like this possibly being implemented in the future, perhaps gradually. Right now, I believe it would hit the economy much too hard if just "dropped" on it. Also, please do not bother responding to the trolls on this forum. If anybody has constructive criticism, work with that, the rest are simply not worth the time, they are not here for a constructive debate anyway. For the record, I am a miner myself, I would not take serious issue with this.
Dr Karsun Gallente Coffee Lovers Brewing Club	Posted - 2011.01.10 12:52:00 - [46] Originally by: Valarre Originally by: Keta Fraal What the-? This is- I can't- How would this stop macromining? And- that must have been a lot of work for you. This will enable corporations to war dec mining operations suspected of macro mining. You can still war dec corporations that you suspect of macro mining... I don't see your point or any change from current state regarding this matter?
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2011.01.10 13:50:00 - [47] This will do exactly one thing: Force out legitimately new players from trying mining, because the macros suck up all the ore in the 1.0 systems in about 20 minutes a day immediately following downtime. If you're going to try and stop macroing, by all means, go ahead. Just try not to kill the game by ****ing off new subscribers in the process, hmm? And while we're at it, why don't we tackle ALL macroing equally - or is there some reason you're specifically NOT addressing all the ratting bots in nullsec? Or do you just not like people who mine and think minerals should magically show up on the market so that ships/modules will become cheaper for you? Please indicate your hidden agenda for the rest of us so we can be clear exactly what it is that's driving this half-assed idea. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Valarre	Posted - 2011.01.10 19:42:00 - [48] Originally by: De'Veldrin This will do exactly one thing: Force out legitimately new players from trying mining, because the macros suck up all the ore in the 1.0 systems in about 20 minutes a day immediately following downtime. If you're going to try and stop macroing, by all means, go ahead. Just try not to kill the game by ****ing off new subscribers in the process, hmm? And while we're at it, why don't we tackle ALL macroing equally - or is there some reason you're specifically NOT addressing all the ratting bots in nullsec? Or do you just not like people who mine and think minerals should magically show up on the market so that ships/modules will become cheaper for you? Please indicate your hidden agenda for the rest of us so we can be clear exactly what it is that's driving this half-assed idea. Well if they can't mine in 1.0 space due to macro miners then they will be able to get mining missions, join a corporation, or even create their own corporation eventually. There are plenty of options around. I have no clue as to how to fight rat botting as a I clearly stated above. I personally would love to fight all macroing equally, so if you would like to be productive and give us an insight on how to fight it we're all ears, otherwise you are just making yourself look like an ass by falsely accusing others for things.
Ildryn do you -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.01.18 00:09:00 - [49] Edited by: Ildryn on 18/01/2011 00:11:06 How about an official GM/DEV response. Are you going to fix this ** or make it okay to bot? Man up. It is obviously a problem. Do something about this. Enough with the conspiracy bull**. Are you or aren't you going to stop the macro/bots from screwing eve over? Get rid of all the Chinese/Russion. Put something in the client that detects them. Add a learning program that won't let eve run while any time of repeating program is running in the background. Do this or issue everyone a damned macro/bot because that is the only way casual players can compete. If anything give the russians and chinese their own instance to screw over.
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2011.01.18 00:25:00 - [50] Oh he very mad! Oh, and just in case you missed it: NO
Ildryn do you -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.01.18 00:39:00 - [51] Originally by: DuKackBoon Oh he very mad! Oh, and just in case you missed it: NO Talking about me? ** you i am American. I cuss when i am being romantic. Oh, and just in case you didn't get it. ** off. :)
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2011.01.18 00:59:00 - [52] Nooo, I'm talking to the OP :P
Corina Jarr	Posted - 2011.01.18 02:22:00 - [53] When people make suggestions about anti-botting and such, it would really be nice if they would do some research. At this point there is a new EVE mission running bot out, so even your mining missions are pointless. Also, corps could make use of their real characters and their macro alts, so that makes your entire suggestion have no effect on macros and only succeeds in killing noobs (who want to mine that is).
Cindra Bane	Posted - 2011.01.18 03:44:00 - [54] Edited by: Cindra Bane on 18/01/2011 03:45:02 First off I do not/would not Macro. Having little to do with it being a violation of the rules I agree to follow by installing the game and setting up an account, and much to do with making having the game irrelevant. Mining however boring I find it on a personal level is a large part of gameplay or why have Mining frigates, Cruisers, Barges, Exhumers, and Orca's not to mention Ice and Gas Mining. In nearly every game I've ever seen much less played there have been those who for whatever reason use programs to automate gameplay elements they find repetitive. Games seek to fight these programs. Ask yourself this question .... Is Mining my target or the Macro's people are using? Macro's are slippery little buggers.
Cindra Bane	Posted - 2011.01.18 03:55:00 - [55] My observation is that most efforts to combat macro'ing by Game Designers involve either invasive programs that cause more grief to honest players than inconvenience to botter's or require a considerable investment of manpower better spent elsewhere. The best Idea I've seen here was the customs patrol idea, exept I would just make it a small window that popped up at random interval and required responce, failure to answer after a minute or two would close the client
Cindra Bane	Posted - 2011.01.18 04:09:00 - [56] seperate issue this Originally by: Valarre The cost on ships is a different issue that should be addressed by ccp. The issue is that building material requirements on all ships is too high anyways. Another massive issue is that T2 BPO's aren't available via npcs at a fair market value. I would hope that if CCP were to place a system like this in game, they would adress the other issues as well or else you may be right it might pose a problem. However it may not because we aren't keeping people from mining are we? We are just regulating how they do it. to all intents and purposes T2 BPO's *Don't Exist* T2 BPC's (copies) are produced by research, and this is intentional
Ildryn do you -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.01.18 18:31:00 - [57] One reply at a time....**** sakes
Cindra Bane	Posted - 2011.01.19 03:37:00 - [58] Originally by: Ildryn One reply at a time....**** sakes Sorry, once the reply exceeds a certain size my window goes wonky so I split it up.
IceWolfDW	Posted - 2011.01.19 19:47:00 - [59] Yea .... NO .... I am a mining director in my corp but think about the new characters who are starting the game, forcing them into a corp just to mine is NOT the way to go... and this wouldn't fix the macro miners as is bc alot of them are in 0.0 alliance space as is.. so yea... no IceWolfDW Mining and Support Operations
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.20 06:00:00 - [60] Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 20/01/2011 06:04:42 Here we go again.. This is totally unnecessary ...and would have the effect of making mining more difficult for everyone. Just settle it the easy if you don't like a miner, war-dec his corp or suicide gank him. I agree that long time miners need to be moved to a deccable corp. Leave younger miners in starter protected corps for some period.. but older miners might be moved to an npc corp or faction corp that is deccable at a reasonably high rate. I believe firmly that fewer people actually macro than you might think. but that's beside the point.. this is about pvp and your hatred of mining competition. P.S. Nothing in this thread is new. These ideas have been debated ad infinitem for years.

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