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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
Certified Household Sweeping Consulting
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Posted - 2011.01.12 22:30:00 -
[61]
Stargates can only bring into system subcapital ships, only at predefined spots and other side can be easily scouted.
Cynos can bring into system about anything. Suddenly. At any spot. No warping or whatever needed.
Imho. This is not a new issue and not related to amount of supercaps whatever. It's been always a tad bit overpowered.
Suddenly capitals or titan bridge. gg.
It would be good to have at least some kind of delay after cyno is activated so people can actually react to it. Even in laggy system. I don't even mind if cyno ship can move after deploying it. Maybe it could be a probe you launch and it activates after x seconds.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.12 22:36:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Bagehi on 12/01/2011 22:38:36
 Originally by: Javelin6
So people can call it a nerf if they want to but, something has got to give.
Yes. The problem with putting the counter on the cyno instead of the caps is that combat cynos will not work then. Titan bridges need to be able to instantly send subcaps to a cyno beacon if CCP wants null sec fights of any size to happen (let alone cap fights). I'm in favor of putting a counter on the cap jump itself, but a cyno pilot should be able to instantly bridge a sub cap fleet into combat.
In null sec cap fights, sub caps start the fight and caps jump in later, so this really wouldn't change things much out here. It would only limit the small super cap hot drops without support, which is really the problem anyway.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Ephemeron
Lubricous
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.12 22:53:00 -
[63]
Quote:
The problem with putting the counter on the cyno instead of the caps is that combat cynos will not work then.
Oh please, what a cop out.
ECCM is a counter to ECM. Does ECM still work?
Warp Core Stabilizer is a counter to Warp Disruptor, does warp disruptor still work?
A hardener and armor rep is a counter to weapon damage. Do weapons still work?
All a cyno counter can do is provide a chance for the other side to win, and chances to win are more dependent on player skill and preparedness.
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Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2011.01.13 00:18:00 -
[64]
Hotdropping sucks. Give jumpdrives a healthy amount of spoolup-time. It's a joke capitals are easier to deploy on a tactical level than battleships.
Capitals should be a strategic element.
So hell yes, make it come true.
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Professor Screweyes
I.M.M
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.01.13 07:16:00 -
[65]
Not supported. Dreads already suck ass as they're only useful vs. structures. Carriers should be more than heavy transports that repair said structures. If the hot drop is nerfed, all capital pilots should have their skill points as well as the value of the skill books reimbursed.
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.13 08:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Professor Screweyes
Not supported. Dreads already suck ass as they're only useful vs. structures. Carriers should be more than heavy transports that repair said structures. If the hot drop is nerfed, all capital pilots should have their skill points as well as the value of the skill books reimbursed.
I believe you are taking it way too far, the nerf we are discussing is not an invalidation of hotdrops as a fleet tactic - it is merely a balance.
Also, why would this balancing ruin it so much for Dread/Carrier pilots as you say? It has been a common fact now for some time that Dreads need a buff, and if you ask me, Carriers are fine as they are. Focus should be given to actually fixing Dreads, and leave the Hotdrop mechanic as a topic of its own, which we are discussing here.
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Takashi X2
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Posted - 2011.01.13 20:22:00 -
[67]
Dear lord Jesus Christ how bad are you players that are getting hot dropped?
Possibility one: "Hey look guys a single ship just engaged us on a gate. Hmm he must have some balls since its 8 on 1"
Reason : Obvious Bait is Super Obvious
Possibility two: " Hey look that crazy dude just lit a cyno what should we do? O we should totally just stay here and see what comes through"
Reason : Stupid player is Stupid
The only time i have ever been hot dropped unexpectedly was.. wait i never have.
On top of that any "spool up" timer added to either end will have one affect. You cant get capitals to the battlefield in a timely manner.
Hey look they opened a cyno on grid Cyno guy is now primary.
or....
Hey look cyno is up off grid everyone fall back and run the hell away.
I really dont mind the idea of an anti cyno bubble or module that has high requirement and stops cynos in an area as thats more tactical but to add spool up timers is uber ******ed.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.01.13 20:54:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Bagehi on 13/01/2011 20:54:23
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
The problem with putting the counter on the cyno instead of the caps is that combat cynos will not work then.
Oh please, what a cop out.
ECCM is a counter to ECM. Does ECM still work?
Warp Core Stabilizer is a counter to Warp Disruptor, does warp disruptor still work?
A hardener and armor rep is a counter to weapon damage. Do weapons still work?
All a cyno counter can do is provide a chance for the other side to win, and chances to win are more dependent on player skill and preparedness.
Say what? If the cyno ship has to decloak then site there with an advert that anyone in system can warp to for any length of time it best be in a deep safe (that doesn't exist anymore) or that cyno ship will be dead within a few seconds. Already, I've been in fights where the cyno ship was killed before much of the fleet was able to get through.
Let alone dropping on an enemy POS or fleet. Subcaps need to be able to bridge immediately. Caps should have to spool up.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Ephemeron
Lubricous
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
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Posted - 2011.01.13 21:37:00 -
[69]
if a cyno is lit off grid, the fastest way for anything larger than inty to get to it and open fire is about 20 seconds. And that's for short warps.
So if that type of delay is acceptable for regular fleet movements - warping between POS's, between gates. Why is it suddenly a no-way for caps? caps shouldn't be faster than sub-caps
As for on-grid cynos, in combat situations, unless you are lighting it right in the middle of a big hostile blob, you can easily survive 20 seconds. Just your standard Drake would do.
I'd say that 15 second delay between cyno and teleportation plus a cyno jammer module of limited range would be optimal way to bring balance to the whole cyno mechanic. It would fit well with other elements of EVE game design.
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Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.13 19:35:00 -
[70]
Bumping to keep alive.
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Manalapan
Dynasty Banking
General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.14 02:58:00 -
[71]
Alright I do think that Cynos need a change. Here are my thoughts on the issue they are similar to the OP with a few additions.
1. There needs to be several sized Cynos, 3 at least.
Starting with the most exclusive, the Covert Ops cyno would only allow the jumping of Black Ops ships (and their Covert Jump Portal.)
Next is the general Cyno we are all familiar with. It can be fit to any ship, and will allow Black Ops, Carriers, Dreads, Rorquals, and Jump Freighters to jump to it.
Lastly, there is the Supercapital Cyno. This MUST BE fit to a Carrier sized craft or bigger. This is ONLY what Titans and Motherships can jump to, but any other ship down the line can jump to them as well.
2. Mass Limits on Cyno Fields.
Each ship, starting with the black ops fleets will consume so much percentage of a certain field. The Black ops will have the smallest mass, and it scales up to the Supercapital Cyno, which will have the most mass. Every time a ship jumps through, the field diminishes similar to the function of Wormholes.
3. Spool-up time on Jumpdrives.
This will make the deploying of a cyno for "hot-dropping" a more strategic job. The distance from the capital ship the target field will factor into the equation, as well as the class of ship. The farther away, the longer the spool time, the bigger the ship, the longer the spool time. This can be capped at a certain interval, possibly for a Titan, at max distance, with no skills could take up to 3 minutes.
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ApexJB
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Posted - 2011.02.14 14:45:00 -
[72]
Supported.
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Manalapan
Dynasty Banking
General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 20:02:00 -
[73]
I am bumping to make sure there is some further discussion as this is likely a topic that will be brought up in CSM in the next year.
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Fogg
Amarr
Dark-Force
Necrophiliacs
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Posted - 2011.03.18 21:21:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Manalapan
Alright I do think that Cynos need a change. Here are my thoughts on the issue they are similar to the OP with a few additions.
1. There needs to be several sized Cynos, 3 at least.
Starting with the most exclusive, the Covert Ops cyno would only allow the jumping of Black Ops ships (and their Covert Jump Portal.)
Next is the general Cyno we are all familiar with. It can be fit to any ship, and will allow Black Ops, Carriers, Dreads, Rorquals, and Jump Freighters to jump to it.
Lastly, there is the Supercapital Cyno. This MUST BE fit to a Carrier sized craft or bigger. This is ONLY what Titans and Motherships can jump to, but any other ship down the line can jump to them as well.
2. Mass Limits on Cyno Fields.
Each ship, starting with the black ops fleets will consume so much percentage of a certain field. The Black ops will have the smallest mass, and it scales up to the Supercapital Cyno, which will have the most mass. Every time a ship jumps through, the field diminishes similar to the function of Wormholes.
3. Spool-up time on Jumpdrives.
This will make the deploying of a cyno for "hot-dropping" a more strategic job. The distance from the capital ship the target field will factor into the equation, as well as the class of ship. The farther away, the longer the spool time, the bigger the ship, the longer the spool time. This can be capped at a certain interval, possibly for a Titan, at max distance, with no skills could take up to 3 minutes.
No to number 1 and 3. Yes to number 2.
First, #1...Moving caps let alone super caps is a tedious process that would be further complicated by having to have a cap there to cyno. And don't quote me on this, but if anyone knows speak up: I have been told a massive ship like a titan would be a guaranteed bump if lit from a carrier. I would suggest a battleship be used in place of a carrier if this change were to be supported. Also, having a carrier stuck for 10 minutes is a very very bad idea, as they pale so much in comparsion to supercaps
For Number #3, I don't see how a wind-up time for utilizing the jump too would solve anything, other than make caps more hair-loss inducing than they already are. Carriers and dreads are by far some of the slowest ships in the game, my archon takes 30+ seconds atleast to align or move in a direction. Having a 2 minute charge to jump when needed too would kill current hotdropping mechanics but also make them even more vulnerable to tackle than they already are. The only way I could see #3 working is if carriers and dreads drives were to be like titans/moms in that only dictors could tackle them.
#2: I like this idea, it would make hotdropping capital blobs onto hapless victims slightly more strategic, as multiple cynos would be needed to get an entire fleet through, scaling up with the size of vessels use. So one cyno could get a full blops fleet through, but several cynos would be needed for moms. Also, there are significant balance concerns to think about when toying with this idea: such as homefield adv vs loading grid, and cyno cycle time. If the mass limit is broken, should said cyno ship be free or still stuck for remainder of cycle? OR should it be freed only to light another cyno 2 seconds later? Is there technical limitations on such a mechanic? I think these are all questions that need to be asked, but I would agree #2 needs some work and more thought but I would enjoy seeing something like that. |
Blastfizzle
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.19 08:15:00 -
[75]
Supported.
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