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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
254
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been playing around in the new EFT, and I am stunned by the numbers. I have noticed the base speeds of the T1 ships have not changed much, but the additional slots make the interceptors pretty much useless in my opinion.
Two fits, and only partial at that, comparing a Slasher to a Stiletto, with max skills.
Slasher: Top speed with Overheat: 6117 m / s, perma-run everything. Base sig: 30 Tackle Range as fitted : 20 km Total Tank: 2061 Align time: 2.2 sec Scan res: 1175 Sensor Strength: 7
Stiletto: Top speed with Overheat: 6681 m / s, run 3 min, 5 sec. Base sig: 31 Tackle Range as fitted : 25 km Total Tank: 3017 Align time: 2.5 sec Scan res: 1156.3 Sensor Strength: 9
Tank is superior on the T2 ship, but with these small tackle ships, tank is basically speed and maneuverability. What I am seeing is the inty is slightly superior in speed, tank and sensor strength, and tackling range, while the T1 version is more maneuverable, and that is with an empty rig slot. And if you make the assumption that the inty must get within 10 km to use the webifier, the 25% increase in point range is negated.
Given the expected survivability of a tackle ship, is it really with the extra cost? A Stiletto hull is going for 25.6M in Jita, a Slasher hull for 324,000, a ratio of 82:1.
[Stiletto, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Overdrive Injector System II
Faint Warp Disruptor I Stasis Webifier II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
[Slasher, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Warp Disruptor I Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script Stasis Webifier II
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S [empty high slot]
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Projectile Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
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Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
53
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
MWD sig bonus.
"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
513
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
1) CCP Fozzie mentioned today that interceptors may not get redone in time for winter. That statement indicated they are on the list though. 2) A Stiletto with a T2 warp disruptors can tackle out to 30km. Interceptors are still much smaller while using a MWD. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
254
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Posted - 2012.08.16 21:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bill Serkoff2 wrote:MWD sig bonus.
Agreed on that point: 69.8 compared to 180 is huge. But given that most tackle pilots spiral in and use transversal velocity, plus you might turn the MwD off IF you get in REALLY tight, I am not sure that is as valuable.
Bottom line, does the huge difference in costs justify the Inty over the T1 version? I guess the market will decide, but I just can't see it. |
Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
53
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Bill Serkoff2 wrote:MWD sig bonus. Agreed on that point: 69.8 compared to 180 is huge. But given that most tackle pilots spiral in and use transversal velocity, plus you might turn the MwD off IF you get in REALLY tight, I am not sure that is as valuable. Bottom line, does the huge difference in costs justify the Inty over the T1 version? I guess the market will decide, but I just can't see it. It will after the universal rebalance.
"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1882
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Posted - 2012.08.16 22:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
The MWD sig bonus and point range come to mind. To me the question you should be asking is why anyone would fly a Crusader now that the Executioner exists. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
78
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Posted - 2012.08.17 07:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
One more low, 70-ish% less signature when MWDing, a bit faster, better resistances, and greatly increased tackle range.
Sounds pretty good in my book for 25 millions.
If you did not agree before, you had to HTFU and still buy an Stiletto. Now you can choose.
Hooray. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
102
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Posted - 2012.08.17 10:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
If are just talking about getting and holding a point at something then the MWD sig bonus is the thing that makes the difference. Once people get used that more and more guys are using T1 Slashers (etc.) for long range tackling people will start fitting more and more missiles for their utility high slot. And then you will feel the difference between Slasher and Stiletto.
If you think about solo or small group then you will prefer a scram and want then to do some damage too. Look at the Claw then and notice the huge difference in DPS output. |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
53
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Posted - 2012.08.17 13:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The MWD sig bonus and point range come to mind. To me the question you should be asking is why anyone would fly a Crusader now that the Executioner exists. :)
-Liang
Exactly.
These new tier 2 frigs do everything the combat-ceptors should do. Including fixing the claw's pointless slot layout - i'd fly a slasher over a claw anyday now. |
Jim Tudeski
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.08.17 23:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Meditril wrote:If you think about solo or small group then you will prefer a scram and want then to do some damage too. Look at the Claw then and notice the huge difference in DPS output. 2 whole DPS while sacrificing targeting range, speed, maneuverability and a web is worth it over the Slasher, right? Here, 2 fits for you to compare. [Slasher, Combat Inty lolol] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Nosferatu II
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
4,521m/s, 100 DPS, 4,580 EHP, has a web, 28.13km targeting range and a 4.2s align time with MWD on. Not to mention it's cheap as hell.
[Claw, Solo] Internal Force Field Array I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Adaptive Nano Plating II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Nosferatu II
Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
102 DPS, 3,717m/s, 5.5 second align time, 7,370 EHP, No AB or web(2 mid slots ftw?), 21.88km targeting range. Not to mention it can't fit any damage mods because of its anemic CPU. Might as well use a Jag in this case.
[Jaguar, Dual Prop] Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Nosferatu II
Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Core Defense Field Extender I
134 DPS, 10,292 EHP, 3,555m/s, 4.7s align time, 46.88km targeting range and the best part? It's dual prop.
Or
[Jaguar, Dual Prop 2 Gyros] Gyrostabilizer II Internal Force Field Array I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Gyrostabilizer II
Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Nosferatu II
Small Core Defense Field Extender I Small Core Defense Field Extender I
161 DPS, 3,249m/s and 5.5s align time.
[Jaguar, MASB] Gyrostabilizer II Internal Force Field Array I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Nosferatu II
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I
For extra lulz, same DPS and speed as the first setup but a 218 DPS tank for sacrificing 4k EHP.
Anyway, that's all. |
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
747
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Posted - 2012.08.17 23:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ceptor pilots still are getting much greater benefits over tech1 crap, than me and my NH used to.
I'd LOVE to see Titans and Moms finally being balanced that way, too, so that they are only marginally better than cheap-ass stuff. 14 |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
256
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Posted - 2012.08.18 00:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
[quote=Jim Tudeski
P.S. OP, Stiletto > the Slasher. Also stay the hell out of web and neut range in a tackle Inty otherwise you are just going to die an LOL worthy death.[/quote]
Yeah, I get the neut range of 25.2 km on heavy ships . But I am not sure just how many ships can afford a mid slot for webs and point, at least shield ships. And yeah, I don't think many small ships try to tackle Curses.
My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much? I just don't think the advantages of 5 km (pre-overheat) of point range and the MwD sig bonus are worth the huge extra cost. |
Jim Tudeski
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.08.18 00:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Jim Tudeski wrote:
P.S. OP, Stiletto > the Slasher. Also stay the hell out of web and neut range in a tackle Inty otherwise you are just going to die an LOL worthy death.
Yeah, I get the neut range of 25.2 km on heavy ships . But I am not sure just how many ships can afford a mid slot for webs and point, at least shield ships. And yeah, I don't think many small ships try to tackle Curses. My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much? I just don't think the advantages of 5 km (pre-overheat) of point range and the MwD sig bonus are worth the huge extra cost. [Stiletto, Tackle] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ionic Field Projector I
30km point range(36km overheated), 39.06km targeting range, 1,850mm scan res, 4.5k EHP, 5,340m/s without overheating. Not worth it? Stay out of web range, stay out of scram range and stay out of neut range. It's really not hard if you are at least halfway competent and well worth the increase in price. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1899
|
Posted - 2012.08.18 00:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much?
82 ISK is 82 times 1 ISK, but that doesn't mean I worry about either price point.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
41
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Posted - 2012.08.18 03:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The MWD sig bonus and point range come to mind. To me the question you should be asking is why anyone would fly a Crusader now that the Executioner exists. :)
-Liang
My Crusader is currently all cleaned up and on display mounted on a slowly spinning stand on loan to Johnny Rocket Burger's, until the balance pass at Inties is done. The Executioner is ... well... yeah. |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
53
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Posted - 2012.08.19 10:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much? I just don't think the advantages of 5 km (pre-overheat) of point range and the MwD sig bonus are worth the huge extra cost.
Yeah. I mean, the MWD bonus by itself is huge and makes a lot of difference in how long you can stick in the field when tackling something which can hit you (eg, AC Hurricane for instance). The Stilleto will simply live much longer then the Slasher when tackling.
Extra point range is also useful. I'd say it's worth it - I'd take tackling and living in a Stilleto over dying in a (t2 fit) t1 frig and the target running away.
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Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
56
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Posted - 2012.08.19 10:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much? 82 ISK is 82 times 1 ISK, but that doesn't mean I worry about either price point. -Liang
And in 0.0 where you hardly engage that price is justified for the small benefit. You know yourself though, in losec its all about having the ability to reship during a fight... and those costs soon mount up. |
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Tuskers
47
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Posted - 2012.08.19 12:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much? 82 ISK is 82 times 1 ISK, but that doesn't mean I worry about either price point. -Liang And in 0.0 where you hardly engage that price is justified for the small benefit. You know yourself though, in losec its all about having the ability to reship during a fight... and those costs soon mount up.
I don't think I've ever reshipped during a fight in lowsec.
Also extended point range and mwd sig bonus are basically everything Interceptors are about. Removing them makes the t1 Frigs only a pale shadow for gang fights (as it should be) |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
662
|
Posted - 2012.08.19 12:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Bill Serkoff2 wrote:MWD sig bonus. Agreed on that point: 69.8 compared to 180 is huge.
Difference between both?
An arty cane insta pops T1 while T2 says "bye" laughing unless the pilot is an idiot (happens frequently)
brb |
Jude Lloyd
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
446
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Posted - 2012.08.19 22:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
The answer is: Don't use Interceptors... Not right now at least. Heretic Army Warlord and Diplomat Host of Frigfest http://judelloyd.blog.com/ http://kbarmy.heretic-army.biz/
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
1923
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Posted - 2012.08.19 22:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jude Lloyd wrote:The answer is: Don't use Interceptors... Not right now at least.
Yup - that's what I do on my frig-only alt. Tackle-ceptors have their niche thanks to the long point, however I used to fly most combat ceptors with an AB anyway and as such, they're not really worth it over the T1 frigs.
ATM, I don't even see the price-tag justified for some AFs compared to the former highest tier frigs even though they were recently buffed.
It's not that I couldn't afford them, but they're easier to get fights in and not that much worse for a fraction of the price.
However, we're still looking a grossly inflated T2 prices still, so hopefully that'll balance out once more counters to the tech monopoly are implemented. You know... morons. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
514
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Posted - 2012.08.19 22:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
I can't wait to see how interceptors will perform post-boost. For now, enjoy the cheap combat frigs and quit kvetching.
Some people have to find a cloud for every silver lining they see. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
51
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Posted - 2012.08.20 00:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
MWD sig bonus can be the difference between life and death when tackling cruisers and BC. And you forgot the T2 module cost in your price multiplication. With modules, T1 frigs are 2 or 3 times only cheaper than ceptors, and my bet is that ceptors are still at least 2 or 3 times more survivable.
Combat ceptors though compared a lot less favorably. |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
162
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Posted - 2012.08.20 00:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Im personally loving flying the new Atron. Im going through them like water, but at ~8M a pop fully T2 fit, who cares?
I skipped frigates before. These have made them fun for me. I cant wait for the cruiser and BC changes.
All Hail tiericide! I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1909
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Posted - 2012.08.20 01:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much? 82 ISK is 82 times 1 ISK, but that doesn't mean I worry about either price point. -Liang And in 0.0 where you hardly engage that price is justified for the small benefit. You know yourself though, in losec its all about having the ability to reship during a fight... and those costs soon mount up.
I must admit that I find this response terribly amusing. On the one hand, you seem to have completely misunderstood my post (cost isn't an issue I care about). On the other, you seem to think that we worry more about reshipping in low sec than in null sec. Well, you're 0 for 2 there.
Heeeeeey batta batta batta sawiiinngg!!!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
60
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Posted - 2012.08.20 01:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
I've found the changes to these frigates annoying as Fu**. They are very effective @ tackling.
The Exe has around the same damage output of a Crusader with an MSE. The same could be said about the others. Just another reason why combat interceptors have become over shadowed in terms of cost AND preformance.
There reasons to fly Interceptors (sig, long point range) are GUTED by the cost and similar preformance everywhere else (damage, tank) by tech 1 frigates.
- end of transmission |
Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
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Posted - 2012.08.20 02:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Probably not much of value, but Inties should still be faster in warp, in terms of AU/s. It is decisive for specific situations. confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
51
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:I've found the changes to these frigates annoying as Fu**. They are very effective @ tackling.
The Exe has around the same damage output of a Crusader with an MSE. The same could be said about the others. Just another reason why combat interceptors have become over shadowed in terms of cost AND preformance.
There reasons to fly Interceptors (sig, long point range) are GUTED by the cost and similar preformance everywhere else (damage, tank) by tech 1 frigates.
- end of transmission I'm not sure the problem is that huge. Combat inty still have this MWD sig bonus and T2 resist, allowing them to achieve similar tank than these T1 frig without tank module to alleviate their speed or signature. That is not negligible against larger target or in fleet. Though, indeed, it is not so much, and may be negligible in small ships engagements. They are now basicaly specialized anti large ship frigates but suck at everything else. Maybe it's the order of things ? This niche is pretty smal though, more over when you consider AF. |
Noisrevbus
204
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The MWD sig bonus and point range come to mind. To me the question you should be asking is why anyone would fly a Crusader now that the Executioner exists. :)
-Liang
To expand a bit on Liang's statement about the combat role here...
The question you should ask yourself is if it's "worth" flying Interceptors now with half the rebalance done.
It's really a straightforward discussion, so i'm not going to be spending much more time in this thread. There's just an obvious undertone here. If you ask why they should be flown people will begin to list small obvious details in favour of certain ships, at the same time it's glaringly obvious that the new EVE ships are better than the old ones at similar tiering, which means you can expect at least all Cruisers to see similar nudges while classes like BC who are considered "problematic" will have a different attention paid to them.
What's obvious now is that there is not as much incentive to fly related Tech II until they have been adressed, you don't need any thinly veiled rhetorical questions for that and it's going to be interesting to see how AF pair up once the entire frigate line is complete, or wether they would need to be adressed again.
I'm still quite at loss as to why this much attention is being spent on complete overhaul of largely reasonable class differences, under some sort of pretense that the new balance will be superior to the old one. They could easily just have axed BC cost-effect and then done ship-ship reviews within class.
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Jerick Ludhowe
Toxic Waste Industries
143
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Posted - 2012.08.20 14:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
This is a perfect example as to why ccp needs to balance t1 and t2 variants at the same time... Especially when extreme power creep is involved in the balancing process. Perfect example is how the taranis now has total fewer slots than the atron, well done guys... |
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