Originally by: Aizen Intaki

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Originally by: Fred Freedom

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Now pretend you're a midsized alliance holding one region that needs to produce 5-6 supercaps, 1-2 titans and 100 BS a month. Do you begin to understand what the problem is?

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So you're saying that removing jump bridges, thus making logistics much more involved than they currently are, would force corporations and alliances to make tough decisions concerning whether or not they need to build their next SC rather than just ****ting them out as fast as possible? I missed the part where that's a bad thing.

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Originally by: Ntrails

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If you remove jump bridges, jump freighters and nerf cap manoeuvrability then 0.0 becomes 4 great swathes of blue.

No one can attack, because replacing ships is a nightmare, getting anywhere is a nightmare, and let's face it defenders already have a ton of advantages. The main one of these will be access to a local market.

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Originally by: Ntrails

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*snip*
Now you need to replace everything that is lost, but the logistics to move a ton more stuff is mind boggling, there is no NPC space market hub because no one can be bothered to produce - they are currently mostly stocked by jews with Jump freighters and huge mark ups.
*snip*

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 Heimatar Syndicate
Apocalypse 80M 60M
Armageddon 52M 42M
Raven 79M 67M
Scorpion 58M 50M
Megathron 76M 65M
...

Originally by: pmchem

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All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Venkul all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.

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Originally by: EdFromHumanResources

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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Originally by: pmchem

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All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Venkul all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.

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Biased experts are worth what exactly?
Ask a billion flies and they will tell you that **** tastes good..

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Yes and for any creature with their geneology it WOULD taste good and is in fact what they want. Just because you think something doesnt taste good doesn't mean we all shouldn't. Since we are human and not flies our dietary requirements are a tad different and our tastes also suffer many differences. But hey keep on rolling with the ignorant statements.

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Originally by: EdFromHumanResources

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Here's an idea, don't remove jump bridges, don't even remove the pos module, just change how they work. Check it out
Once anchored a jump bridge pos module allows a corp to link the system to two systems with the same range restrictions as presently. The corporation management page has you set a password that is then used to activate the gates in the system. Upon activation you would either be given a selection box(I personally would want something more elegant) or right click jump to on the gate like your capacitor on a jump drive capable ship.

I would allow the password to not be limited to standings. People inside the corp or alliance would not need the password. This would allow both hostiles and friendlies to abuse your jump bridge network and move through your space quickly. Sure you can get from germinate to fountain in 15 minutes, but so can they. This would also force people to go through gates. Logistics would remain something of a **** but overall I think it would be a better system.

I had this thought about 6 minutes ago so I will need some more thinking on it to hammer out all the kinks like the UI involved wtih the gate to avoid it being clunky as hell. Good thing I am at work for 13 more hours with nothing to do.

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Originally by: EdFromHumanResources

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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Originally by: EdFromHumanResources

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Here's an idea, don't remove jump bridges, don't even remove the pos module, just change how they work. Check it out
Once anchored a jump bridge pos module allows a corp to link the system to two systems with the same range restrictions as presently. The corporation management page has you set a password that is then used to activate the gates in the system. Upon activation you would either be given a selection box(I personally would want something more elegant) or right click jump to on the gate like your capacitor on a jump drive capable ship.

I would allow the password to not be limited to standings. People inside the corp or alliance would not need the password. This would allow both hostiles and friendlies to abuse your jump bridge network and move through your space quickly. Sure you can get from germinate to fountain in 15 minutes, but so can they. This would also force people to go through gates. Logistics would remain something of a **** but overall I think it would be a better system. .

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Even better.. let them build real Jumpgates instead.
There is a pipe that is constantly camped by hostiles? ..make your own pipe.
There is a need for a highway from one <imobile monopoly> to the other <immobile monopoly>? ..make your own defence network.
There is a fight three regions over? ..use the highways to get there asap and join the blob.
Soon you will be able to travel around in no time at all and we'll still have the problems of today that roaming gangs find no targets as everyone docks up or joins a larger blob or has a blob in range.

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Man look at you countering what I...oh wait no you didn't. You just built up a completely unrelated straw me and proceeded to battle him for supremacy. Your response has literally nothing to do with what I said and in fact is why I didnt suggest that.

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Originally by: Evelopedia on Jumbridges

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A jump bridge is a static emplacement that allows a ship to move great distances, without the assistance of anyone else online. These are commonly put into networks, allowing a ship to move up to their 0.0 home quickly.

Jump bridges are set up by player alliances at their POS' in their sovereign space. The placing of these bridges link distant systems in a similar fashion to a stargate. One of the main differences is that the jump bridge uses liquid ozone to fuel the bridge for the jump.

By placing these structures, alliances create a highway system that allows very fast travel through 0.0 space. They are a time saver of immense proportions, and allow for the players to have more access to their home systems deep in 0.0

Jump bridges also facilitate the quick response ability to alliances when attacked. traditionally a system may be 30 jumps from your home system. If you were attacked there, it would take you 30 jumps X (X number of minutes per jump) to get to your destination. With jump bridges, a system 30 jumps away may only be 3 using the jump bridge technology.

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Originally by: Vicious Cell

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*snip*
I would really hate if CCP actually changed their game based solely on what these CSM guys feel is needed. I know for a fact that the majority of players would be strongly against some of the stuff written in these meetings. As the majority of players have real lives and cannot afford harsh game mechanics, it would break the game for them.
*snap*

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Originally by: Mecinia Lua

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*snip*
As for logistics folks would just do it with wormholes not move freighters through 0.0 which would be suicidal.

The dev mentioning they'd love to remove freighters. That would be one of the stupidest things you could do and if you wanted to kill industry in 0.0 completey go ahead and do it.

Why isn't there more 0.0 activity. Simple its not safe. You can't have the mining you do in hi sec in 0.0 because some roamer is going to blow up your mining operation. You know the folks that sit and look on the map to see which system has the most active folks and the least jumps in the last hour and then goes there to investigate.
*snap*

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

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So it would perhaps be a good idea to wait to see what the whole package is before beginning the hardcore raging -- and I for one am going to push very hard for public discussion of that package at the earliest possible stage (player tiger-teaming of this kind of stuff is something I am very much in favor of, since players have to live with the consequences).

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speaking from past experiences:

If you want till the "whole package" is presented at least 70% of it is already set in stone with very small tweak possible.

When it is at the current stage "we are considering it" the players can try to discuss and even shout about the pro or cons whit a good chance to make CCP reconsider.

When it is at the stage "we are publishing a devblog with what we have decided to do in the next expansion in six months" CCP has already assigned the resources (time and manpower) to the different development groups and prepared a roadmap of how the work should progress.

A that point the room for changes will be very reduced.

What we read in the minutes is a hypothesis for a set of nerfs that maybe, if all go well and the players react as we wish (fat chance), will give the buff to small gangs and so on that Meissa want.

As already said to me some of them seem more prone to increase the numbers of bots mining in 0.0, as Fred said at least the multi alliances holding the Technetium moons will continue to exist and so on.

It is a gamble with high stakes and uncertain results.

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Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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And one more thing.. play devils advocate in your OWN proposals.

Do look at those solutions from the perspective of whatever comes to your mind that might want/need/should go out there and how this will affect them.
This includes miners, missionrunners, pirates and whatever else runs around and has a name and is wished for to be out there.

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We do, a lot... I know I personally will defend whatever opinion is contrary to the current one just to provide perspective and nuance. Obviously I don't need to do it on this forum, there's no shortage of people bashing the proposal ;-)

After that's done, however, one should draw a conclusion about which alternative is best while keeping an eye on the downsides. Playing devil's advocate doesn't mean one should be forever undecided because of the existence of points both for and against a given proposal.

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