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Will Eve-Gate make market PvP unfair?

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Carebearrrrrr	Posted - 2011.01.25 00:37:00 - [1] Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 00:53:46 I remember hearing that CCP is planning to enhance Eve Gate, so you will be able to do everything on Eve Gate except for PvP and PvE. I assume this means you will also be able to update your market orders using Eve Gate? But wouldn't that make Market PvP kind of unfair? Because giving players anytime access to Market PvP would mean that High School and College kids, and people who have less demanding jobs, or jobs with more privacy where people cannot see what you're doing all the time, would be able to update their market orders much more often using their Smartphones/iPads, which they previously cannot do with their school or work computer. While the people who have more demanding jobs that require more attention, or a job where you don't have your own office and other people can see what you're doing, cannot go on Eve Gate nearly as often during work hours.
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.01.25 00:56:00 - [2] If you can update the market via web interface, the market will be run by bots, and it will be undetectable. Web developers are a dime a dozen, hacking or screen scraping game clients is more arduous. I see the worry you have...
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.01.25 00:56:00 - [3] Originally by: Carebearrrrrr Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 00:53:46But wouldn't that make Market PvP kind of unfair? And it's fair now, exactly how? Where anyone who's retired, out of work, in college, in high school, works from home, etc. has the advantage? If anything this starts to level the playing field. Market Alerts Mailing List
Princess Saerah Amarr Phoenix Acquisitions	Posted - 2011.01.25 00:57:00 - [4] Originally by: Carebearrrrrr Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 00:53:46 I remember hearing that CCP is planning to enhance Eve Gate, so you will be able to do everything on Eve Gate except for PvP and PvE. I assume this means you will also be able to update your market orders using Eve Gate? But wouldn't that make Market PvP kind of unfair? Because giving players anytime access to Market PvP would mean that High School and College kids, and people who have less demanding jobs, or jobs with more privacy where people cannot see what you're doing all the time, would be able to update their market orders much more often using their Smartphones/iPads, which they previously cannot do with their school or work computer. While the people who have more demanding jobs that require more attention, or a job where you don't have your own office and other people can see what you're doing, cannot go on Eve Gate nearly as often during work hours. While I agree progress cannot and should not be slowed due to people like us, as I'm sure it would be immediate termination were I to pull up my market orders on the work computer. Besides that I think it would be a great feature enhancing the 'in character' experience for many players. There are a lot of pros and cons to this idea and I'm sure CCP will act according to what's best for their product. I would love to be a power CEO from my android though, would be nice.
Carebearrrrrr	Posted - 2011.01.25 01:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 01:12:31 Originally by: Taram Caldar And it's fair now, exactly how? Where anyone who's retired, out of work, in college, in high school, works from home, etc. has the advantage? If anything this starts to level the playing field. Nope, because this will just give high school and college kids even more opportunities to update their market orders, since they can play with their iPhones under their desk during class, not to mention in between classes, at recess, etc.
Candy Oshea Amarr Techfree Investment Group	Posted - 2011.01.25 01:12:00 - [6] tbh, i would greatly welcome the ability to modify orders through eve gate. i would certainly invest in more trade alts & do more margin trading. can see the "bot" problem, but its no different to the bots in jita as it is. If anything it will even the odds for the honest player out a bit by increasing accessibility. xx Candy
Nikolai Kondratiev Sphere Design Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.25 03:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Candy Oshea tbh, i would greatly welcome the ability to modify orders through eve gate. i would certainly invest in more trade alts & do more margin trading. can see the "bot" problem, but its no different to the bots in jita as it is Problem with a web interface is that it makes automating things just so much easier. Way too easy even. At that point CCP might just allow everyone to have some automatic order updating feature ingame _ Ore Table \| PI Profits
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.01.25 04:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Carebearrrrrr wouldn't that make Market PvP kind of unfair? "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." General William Tecumseh Sherman
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.25 07:40:00 - [9] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 25/01/2011 07:40:25 Originally by: Nikolai Kondratiev Originally by: Candy Oshea tbh, i would greatly welcome the ability to modify orders through eve gate. i would certainly invest in more trade alts & do more margin trading. can see the "bot" problem, but its no different to the bots in jita as it is Problem with a web interface is that it makes automating things just so much easier. Way too easy even. At that point CCP might just allow everyone to have some automatic order updating feature ingame just charge RL money for web-access to the market platform and (significantly) higher ISK fees for updating orders OOG than what you pay in-game. Blizzard gets away with charging 3$/month for remote access to the auction house, enforces a limit of 200 transactions (bids, buyouts, creation of auctions)/day for the web interface and the AH (IG as OOG) has relatively high fees for updating orders (as you have to cancel the old auction and create a new one, losing your deposit in the process). At least on the server I play on (which is well populated), I haven't noticed any obvious signs of AH bots at work. -- <Abuser> Won't the wave of intelligent bots make CCP work at least in the direction of securing the engine? <[IA]Morpheus> Of course it will, that's obvious.
Bom Barley	Posted - 2011.01.25 08:59:00 - [10] A market bot would be easier to write if you could access the market from your browser (http librairies are very easy to understand, and do most of the work (cookies, https sessions, ...) for you). However, they would also be much easier to counter : a captcha randomly appears when you try to modify a transaction. (Maybe one out of 10, or 20...) Now that i think of it, a captcha system in the eve client would also downright break all the market bots out there (except the "chinese worker" market bot ^^). I wonder how many traders would accept the nuisance, if it meant having a cleaner market ? What's your opinion, MD?

Dezolf Minmatar DAX Action Stance	Posted - 2011.01.25 09:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Carebearrrrrr I remember hearing that CCP is planning to enhance Eve Gate, so you will be able to do everything on Eve Gate except for PvP and PvE. I assume this means you will also be able to update your market orders using Eve Gate? But wouldn't that make Market PvP kind of unfair? I love how you say that they won't let you do pvp on eGate, then assume that you can change orders, and then proceed to say that markets have pvp. :D
Princess Saerah Amarr Phoenix Acquisitions	Posted - 2011.01.25 09:34:00 - [12] Originally by: Carebearrrrrr Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 01:12:31 Originally by: Taram Caldar And it's fair now, exactly how? Where anyone who's retired, out of work, in college, in high school, works from home, etc. has the advantage? If anything this starts to level the playing field. Nope, because this will just give high school and college kids even more opportunities to update their market orders, since they can play with their iPhones under their desk during class, not to mention in between classes, at recess, etc. Early bird will get the worm. I think anything should be done to create a competition as it would make the trade profession more enjoyable and 'roleplay'-able. Prices would be more enjoyable for all as well while increasing sales and influencing the entire market for the better. Sure this would upset a few including yourself and I in those respects but for the good of the game I think we would have to forgo our rights. Evolution occurs and those who cannot adapt are often left behind. This would certainly get the blood pumping a bit more in such a profession and as suggested above you could always implement additional fees and order modification limits / higher costs (which I don't think should be done so much as quantity but by time.) I did have one bot combating idea though. Why not have it to where randomly it will send you a verification email containing a hyper link, kind of like they do when creating an email or aim account. You would be modifying orders when you receive a message to stop and answer a confirmation email. That confirmation email would have to be opened and followed where you would then find any of a few captcha like secondary systems. This would then have to be completed and you're on your way. Personally I think not capping a resource as such would be in the best interest of the market and general trade but it should come at a higher cost to the trader per order mod so that if abused the player at fault would feel it in his wallet. As for smartphone apps I think if created these too should share the email verification as all smartphones are email ready. And just another 'annoyance' would not only help fumble a bot but also a human in some cases. Would certainly make it a little more work to sit on the phone and check orders.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.25 09:55:00 - [13] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 25/01/2011 09:55:15 Originally by: Princess Saerah I did have one bot combating idea though. Why not have it to where randomly it will send you a verification email containing a hyper link, kind of like they do when creating an email or aim account. You would be modifying orders when you receive a message to stop and answer a confirmation email. That confirmation email would have to be opened and followed where you would then find any of a few captcha like secondary systems. This would then have to be completed and you're on your way. Personally I think not capping a resource as such would be in the best interest of the market and general trade but it should come at a higher cost to the trader per order mod so that if abused the player at fault would feel it in his wallet. As for smartphone apps I think if created these too should share the email verification as all smartphones are email ready. And just another 'annoyance' would not only help fumble a bot but also a human in some cases. Would certainly make it a little more work to sit on the phone and check orders. I heard RPGs are about immersion and stuff... -- <Abuser> Won't the wave of intelligent bots make CCP work at least in the direction of securing the engine? <[IA]Morpheus> Of course it will, that's obvious.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.01.25 10:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Bom Barley A market bot would be easier to write if you could access the market from your browser (http librairies are very easy to understand, and do most of the work (cookies, https sessions, ...) for you). However, they would also be much easier to counter : a captcha randomly appears when you try to modify a transaction. (Maybe one out of 10, or 20...) Now that i think of it, a captcha system in the eve client would also downright break all the market bots out there (except the "chinese worker" market bot ^^). I wonder how many traders would accept the nuisance, if it meant having a cleaner market ? What's your opinion, MD? You are a genius. A simple way to break every bot in existence, particularly as any kind of delay would be incredibly suspicious.
Snasty Caldari The Hippies The bohemians	Posted - 2011.01.25 10:45:00 - [15] My staff are starting to doubt my story that Eve is a screensaver, web access would be handy --------------------------------------- -=Snasty, short for Shagnasty ever since the GM's in SWG made me change it...!=-
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.01.25 11:15:00 - [16] I think captchas would be fine if your account is flagged for trader status, ie the game detects how many times you update an order and once it passes a threshhold, 1% of the orders would have captchas. If you fail a captcha, 2% of the total orders would now be captchas. Another fail, 4%. A bot that can't do captchas would have 100% of the orders have captchas within 30 minutes, while a human who misses a couple will still rarely be seeing them. Of course the captcha % should fall back to 1% over time, maybe reset every DT or so. I'm proud of this idea, I hope CCP sees it
Julian Koll The Kollektive	Posted - 2011.01.25 11:20:00 - [17] Captchas are pretty useless by now. Read an Article some time ago on how bots will solve modern captchas with a lower miss rate than the average human.
Bom Barley	Posted - 2011.01.25 11:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Liberty Eternal You are a genius. I am, am I not ? By the way this thread seems like the perfect place to advertise my app, So here goes : Eve001Tool is an app to help you with 0.01 trading. It supports cache scrapping, and igb market browsing. It tells you which orders you should update, and with which amount, like THIS, without any actions on your part. This application is dramatically reducing the advantage bot users have on you, while at the same time it is perfectly legal and safe to use. (Petition it yourself if want).
Bom Barley	Posted - 2011.01.25 11:29:00 - [19] Edited by: Bom Barley on 25/01/2011 11:30:33 Originally by: Julian Koll Captchas are pretty useless by now. Read an Article some time ago on how bots will solve modern captchas with a lower miss rate than the average human. Source, or I'm calling FUD
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.01.25 11:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Bom Barley Edited by: Bom Barley on 25/01/2011 11:30:33 Originally by: Julian Koll Captchas are pretty useless by now. Read an Article some time ago on how bots will solve modern captchas with a lower miss rate than the average human. Source, or I'm calling FUD Here is some Google found me some article on New Scientist as well as a load of forum people saying "WtF how did the spam bots get in?" etc. etc. TBH Artificially raising the barrier of entry by saying "No trading on EVE gate, it gives people with more free time an unfair advantage!" is verging on a form of social welfare in EVE. TBH If you are not at the computer to update your orders because you are at your job or somewhere then I can almost guarantee you that those orders have already been outbid anyway by someone who is at their computer. All the EVEGATE access will do is provide a few more people the ability to be at the computer than before, creating more competition which in a hyper-capitalistic society like EVE should be seen as a good thing.

KaarBaak Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe	Posted - 2011.01.25 13:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Carebearrrrrr Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 00:53:46 I remember hearing that CCP is planning to enhance Eve Gate, so you will be able to do everything on Eve Gate except for PvP and PvE. I'd be interested in the source for this. Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
Dariel Ash Caldari Foetus Mart	Posted - 2011.01.25 13:42:00 - [22] Sounds like bawlz to me. Allowing market access to EVE Gate would be silly. Now what would be cool if market visibility (ie you can see what's going down but you can't interact), or, you can get some sort of filtered news about New Eden in Eve gate.
Nikolai Kondratiev Sphere Design Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.25 14:10:00 - [23] inb4 captcha trolls ... OH WAIT! And you even have captcha breaking service. And some owners claim that they use humans and not bots to read them, so everytime you suggest to add a captcha somewhere, you suggest that another chinese kid gets exploited to read them _ Ore Table \| PI Profits
Risk Aversion	Posted - 2011.01.25 17:37:00 - [24] write access to the market via the web will never happen.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.01.25 17:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Risk Aversion write access to the market via the web will never happen. I bet it will. It would reduce the amount of people in JITA also, for a start, and would reduce server load as it only has to serve up market, wallet and asset details rather than the whole environment. If they can find a way to make it as secure as the client itself is to prevent abuse then I bet they'd gladly do it.
Monkeedude	Posted - 2011.01.25 18:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: Risk Aversion write access to the market via the web will never happen. I bet it will. It would reduce the amount of people in JITA also, for a start, and would reduce server load as it only has to serve up market Except now you've got to serve up the market probably more than twice as often. You're going to have a lot more connections, more adjustments done. Imagine the player base that usually only accesses Eve for 4 hours a day, monitoring it occaisonally now 12 hours a day. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll happen too, but it's not like the overall load will decrease, it'll likely increase, but there should be less people in game - making the game servers easier to loadbalance.
Princess Saerah Amarr Phoenix Acquisitions	Posted - 2011.01.25 18:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 25/01/2011 09:55:15 Originally by: Princess Saerah I did have one bot combating idea though. Why not have it to where randomly it will send you a verification email containing a hyper link, kind of like they do when creating an email or aim account. You would be modifying orders when you receive a message to stop and answer a confirmation email. That confirmation email would have to be opened and followed where you would then find any of a few captcha like secondary systems. This would then have to be completed and you're on your way. Personally I think not capping a resource as such would be in the best interest of the market and general trade but it should come at a higher cost to the trader per order mod so that if abused the player at fault would feel it in his wallet. As for smartphone apps I think if created these too should share the email verification as all smartphones are email ready. And just another 'annoyance' would not only help fumble a bot but also a human in some cases. Would certainly make it a little more work to sit on the phone and check orders. I heard RPGs are about immersion and stuff... I agree, some forget that RPG in fact stands for Role Playing Game.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.01.25 18:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Monkeedude Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: Risk Aversion write access to the market via the web will never happen. I bet it will. It would reduce the amount of people in JITA also, for a start, and would reduce server load as it only has to serve up market Except now you've got to serve up the market probably more than twice as often. You're going to have a lot more connections, more adjustments done. Imagine the player base that usually only accesses Eve for 4 hours a day, monitoring it occaisonally now 12 hours a day. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll happen too, but it's not like the overall load will decrease, it'll likely increase, but there should be less people in game - making the game servers easier to loadbalance. I think you overestimate just how many people will be logged into the website compared to how many are logged into the game just now. Many of those logged into the game will be able to log out also and just use the website which will reduce overall server load.
Ayaska Shran	Posted - 2011.01.25 19:30:00 - [29] Edited by: Ayaska Shran on 25/01/2011 19:30:44 Originally by: Carebearrrrrr Edited by: Carebearrrrrr on 25/01/2011 00:53:46 But wouldn't that make Market PvP kind of unfair? As already stated in this thread, it is already 'unfair' for YOU. I personally have a job where I can play eve. I update orders all day long. What this will do is actually put more people on an even playing field. Because more people will be able to do what I do. So in general it will have the opposite effect of what you say: it will be more fair for more people. Just not for you personally. Originally by: mechtech If you can update the market via web interface, the market will be run by bots, and it will be undetectable. I agree with mechtech. This will allow botting to be easier, and therefore more widespread. If it becomes too widespread, it could make having a bot be required. That would be a bad thing.
Tutskii	Posted - 2011.01.25 20:11:00 - [30] I am interested to see what CCP does about bots. These aren't like miner bots, if it becomes impossible to sell stuff on markets, there will be massive quitting.



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