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Javajunky
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Posted - 2011.01.26 04:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Javajunky on 26/01/2011 04:21:47
As many times as I complained about PI, I have to eat crow now that I've done the numbers and had time to work with it. As someone managing 36 planets with 23H cycles, I can definitely say my time spent each day has gone down from a tedium factor.
I have 5 of 6 P1 products now exceeding my previous base line extraction. The only one I've seen a lower output on is Base Metal / Reactive Metals because it's everywhere but hot spots seem harder to come by which was solved by shifting configuration of 2 planets. I know the 5HR cycle guys seem to have taken a bit of a hit. I know it's still got some kinks to iron, I know the guys who were building P2/P3's on a single planet are unhappy but it works. As much as I had to eat crow and just say I'm wrong. Iron out the kinks and go for it. My opinion it's better thna the click fest.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:33:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 26/01/2011 05:32:53
Please provide a link to your many complaints so we can contrast them with what you are saying here..
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.26 05:41:00 -
[3]
So the P2 and P3 people are still screwed, the 5 hour people are still screwed, but somehow you see "less tedium" with your P1 products and you somehow don't have more tedium in moving around the extractor heads.
Are you even moving the extractor heads? Is there competition on your planet? How much? Are all 6 of your characters now on different planets? These pieces of info would be helpful.
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Tea Partier
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Posted - 2011.01.26 09:00:00 -
[4]
As a former 2 5-hour cycles a day player with 25 CC's. the time spent on it has dropped a lot and it has made it so much easier. Issues/complaints that I have involve the following:
-Planetology skill is now necessary with advanced planteology being a nice bonus. Before you could get away with only one toon with good skills locating the places for you. Moving your extractor heads is necessary and not putting extractors near each other is another good idea. I have 2 CC's next to each other on a planet drawing the same resource. It's not working out very well for me.
-It seems some of my hot spots have moved or the planetology skills have become better. My 4/3 guy is now seeing hot spots for a necessary good appearing on a planet that didn't show that before.
One nice benefit is that planet radius doesn't play as big a part as it used to. When I get my main PI guy up to 5/5 in the planetology skills, I'm going to screenshot all the hot spots and move all my extractors around.
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Javajunky
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Posted - 2011.01.26 13:34:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Chelone
So the P2 and P3 people are still screwed, the 5 hour people are still screwed, but somehow you see "less tedium" with your P1 products and you somehow don't have more tedium in moving around the extractor heads.
Are you even moving the extractor heads? Is there competition on your planet? How much? Are all 6 of your characters now on different planets? These pieces of info would be helpful.
To answer your questions, yes I'm moving extractor heads periodically (every couple days for some I haven't tracked how often I've had to make these moves but a move none the less is a lot quicker). I'm even moving the control unit when necessary and it's really not a big deal. Just remember to re-route ha ha. I can also say that 75% of my own pilots are sharing planets. I don't have a count of how many people are in system with me but I now for certain that there is a big communitiy in our pocket doing PI. I focus on POS fuel production, I'm not sure everyone else does as well.
Somethihing I can tell you though I'm deep null sec. Recently I thought about doing some null sec PI with some alts in some 0.0 space near empire and I couldn't find as many planets that had the resource signatures In null sec, the deeper you go the better the resources? I'm deep like 30+ jumps from empire or is a true 0.0 type thing?
Anyway - just saying here I measured a baseline, yeah I had to make a couple changes to get things right. It probably took me like 2 weeks to nail this down. I wasn't ever a 5H cycle guy no I can't put it in the context / rage of the change. On a time value of ISK basis, spending less time. So although I think tweaks are needed, but I think there probably needs to be less emo rage at this point over it and as someone who felt like they were emo over this, I just have be big enough to admit when I make a mistake.
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Funesta
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Posted - 2011.01.26 19:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chelone
So the P2 and P3 people are still screwed, the 5 hour people are still screwed, but somehow you see "less tedium" with your P1 products and you somehow don't have more tedium in moving around the extractor heads.
Are you even moving the extractor heads? Is there competition on your planet? How much? Are all 6 of your characters now on different planets? These pieces of info would be helpful.
They aren't screwed. They're lazy idiots.
All they need to do is set up a factory planet within the same solar system. Extract their stuff, move it over to the factory world once in a while. Since you have to go pick up your goods eventually, one way or another, you might as well do it properly and take the extra MINUTE to drag the P1 stuff to a factory planet. The p3 guys would actually make more p3 stuff, since they're extracting more p0 anyhow.
I do this. The extra time to warp from Extraction Planet's customs office to Factory Planet's customs office is literally one minute. The extra output is more than worth this extra minute. You don't have to hop systems, you don't have to dock anywhere. Warp towards Extraction Planet, get the stuff up in the shuttle during warp. Grab the stuff, warp to Factory Planet, dump the cargo hold into Factory Planet's customs office, warp towards whatever I would rather be doing. Get the stuff on factory planet imported during warp towards the solar system's gate. No big deal, so little extra time, so much extra money.
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.01.26 20:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 26/01/2011 20:04:05
Originally by: Funesta
Originally by: Chelone
So the P2 and P3 people are still screwed...
They aren't screwed. They're lazy idiots.
Those that have planets deep in NPC 0.0, enjoying the best extraction rates, yet only leaving hi-sec once in a great while to gather their completed P3s... They're pretty much screwed. Now you're almost forced to be a resident and actually frequent the space you harvest from. The horror.
There is a workaround, but it involves actively managing your build process against storage capacity, and in my experience isn't as effective as having a dedicated factory planet grind your P1s into finished products.
IMO, even if it's not something the devs actually planned, the result is as it should be.
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Palpatine III
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.26 22:05:00 -
[8]
Well, from what I'm seeing, these PI changes are just crap; and here is why:
1. I used to be able to extract 600K P0 per 5 hr cycle 2-3 times a day. I am now doing 23 hour cycles and I can't even keep my processors fully buffered. I'm still changing the heads 2-3 times a day trying to get the highest yields usually at the beginning of the programs. It's just not possible unless you tear down your colony and rebuild somewhere else.
2. The hot spots are now just a general idea of where the concentrations are. You have to move your heads around randomly trying to get your graph to go up to something decent. Finally when you do think you have a decent amount of output, when submit the changes you find out DOLT! no you don't PI guy - hahaha. So much fun! Planning this new system is just a pain in the ass. I'd rather do the click fest.
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Vo'Nguyen Giap
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Posted - 2011.01.26 22:28:00 -
[9]
I am disappointed that the rate of depletion is wrecking havok on base metal extraction.
all hot spots are disappearing, none reappearing, adv planetology 4 |
Toldain
Gallente
Skyforger
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.01.26 22:43:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Toldain on 26/01/2011 22:45:29
Originally by: Funesta
All they need to do is set up a factory planet within the same solar system. Extract their stuff, move it over to the factory world once in a while. Since you have to go pick up your goods eventually, one way or another, you might as well do it properly and take the extra MINUTE to drag the P1 stuff to a factory planet. The p3 guys would actually make more p3 stuff, since they're extracting more p0 anyhow.
I do this. I'm still screwed. It's about depletion. I make coolant on three gas planets on one system in 0.0. The factory planet also extracts some aqueous liquid and makes water, because I had leftover power grid.
However, on a planet where I used to be able to run 12 extractors twice a day on 5 hour cycles, my resources are now depleting fast on maybe 6-8 extractors.
I have two other plasma planets where I make coolant. I used to do it locally, it worked. It doesn't now, I can't extract two goods without cutting back the number of BIFs and AIFs.
With 5 planets I was able to produce 65 units of coolant per hour, now I'm down to maybe 55 and wondering what I did to **** the devs off.
I'm not some absentee landlord either. I tend those suckers most every day.
----
http://toldaintalks.blogspot.com - Because reading me sure beats working!
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apostasy lurke
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Posted - 2011.01.26 22:54:00 -
[11]
as a 3 5hr cycle a day guy, the new pi system sux very bad. it takes be about the same amount of time to do all my15 planets as b4, with fewer clicks, but have to move extractor heads constantly. and after a week my throughput is 2/3rds of what it was with old system. so thx ccp for setting it up so the ppl who work harder to make thier isk with pi now make less, or have to rethink thier entire chains for different cycle times. and with 5 hr cycles you can take an area of a planet well below 50% of rescources in only a few days. this is not an improvement.
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BadPI
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Posted - 2011.01.26 23:03:00 -
[12]
Edited by: BadPI on 26/01/2011 23:05:52
I am managing 13 planets in a WH. Most of these planets are lvl 2 resources. Before incursion I was updating my extractors daily. Now I am updating my extractors every 12-13 hours. My yields are down perhaps 10-20%. I don't like the new system.
Maybe if the hot spots didn't move it would be easier and my yields would return to their previous state.
Quote:
Extract their stuff, move it over to the factory world once in a while
True, but there are then no extractors on the factory planet and the overall yield is thus reduced.
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Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2011.01.27 00:40:00 -
[13]
Its good to see another ex-PI rager calmed down, looked objectivly at what was going on, and decided he was wrong to rage. Bonus points for having the courage to come on the forums to admit it.
As for the people complaining about depletion, yes depletion is now an issue. Your going to have to adjust what your doing. Not using 5 hour cycles all the time would probably be a good idea.
If you continue to use 5 hours cycles under the new system, your going to deplete the resource your extracting. Continuing to use 5 hour cycles and then raging about resource depletion wont change the depletion rate.
Adapt to the new mechanics or lose out on production. Alternatively, you can quit PI in a huff. Your choice.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but it is something needed to be said... again...
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Elder Man
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.01.27 01:03:00 -
[14]
I've found not matter what I do, move to or change on the extraction process, depletion is now horrid in comparison to what it was. Not enough hot spots to go too. So........what's the plan now, drain the planet and wait a few weeks and try again. I'm not seeing anything coming back on my alts planets. Only one or 2 other guys on them too.
The new PI is nice, the depletion rate's however borked.
Elder Man |
Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2011.01.27 01:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Elder Man
I've found not matter what I do, move to or change on the extraction process, depletion is now horrid in comparison to what it was...
The new PI is nice, the depletion rate's however borked...
I'm in 0.3 low sec, I dont have a problem with depletion on planets that are high in the material I am extracting. On planets where the resource I am extracting is scarce, depletion is a minor problem. Which is as it should be because I am in low-sec.
Hi-sec planets are supposed to be worse off with resources, and now depletion rates, than low-sec/0.0/wormholes. Change what your doing, find a new planet as some planets of the same type are worse that others of the same type, go to low-sec/0.0/wormhole space.
I'm going to have to be very blunt on this next part. If your still having problems, when so many of us aren't, maybe its you.
Adapt or not. Its your choice.
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Palpatine III
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.27 02:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
?...
As for the questions.
1. No you are not affected by other players extractor heads
2. When you install a program we deplete the resource a bit. It does regenerate but your heads might not be at "optimal position" next time you survey for resources.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Originally by: Naradak
Are the current output rates pretty much what they will be when this is implemented?
I belief they are unless we ****ed up copying some static data. It's should be more than last iteration of the new ECUs but should be almost equivalent to current TQ iirc.
Quotes from Mr. Tuxford himself. Either CCP f.ucked up or they they really have no clue what people were capable of extracting under the old system. People were *****ing for weeks about this in the test server feedback. Well.. the Devs apparently didn't listen...
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SENTIENEL
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Posted - 2011.01.27 04:29:00 -
[17]
WHy we adjust ourselves? why ccp doesnt adjust to players? arent we customers? |
Chong Woon
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Posted - 2011.01.27 04:43:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Chong Woon on 27/01/2011 04:44:13
CCP's Game and thus CCP's rules.  Besides it would be insane to adjust to the varied tastes/style/whines of thousands of different people.
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.27 05:13:00 -
[19]
I've tested it out a bit, and depletion looks to be a massive problem. It's ridiculous in fact. On 1-day cycles it looks like all the nearby hotspots are already dead. I've "adapted" my colony to the new PI, and it looks like down the road I'm gonna have to settle for HOPEFULLY 1/2 of the production I had before without having to tear down all my extractors and spaceport every day. Hey geniuses, not everything is !%$@ing mobile. This is, of course, in addition to the increased hauling that will have to be done. I'm not doing anything fancy either, basically P1 or I would call it "adapted P1/P2" which isn't any harder or easier than just P1 would be.
The stupidity of the new PI exceeds even CCP's usual low standards, thus I believe it will actually be fixed within a reasonable period of time.
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Donn Quixote
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:13:00 -
[20]
I'm also setup in a 0.3 sec system and run 24 hour cycles. I've already had to move my ECU's on 5 planets and I have 6 gas giants where I'm screwed because the resources are depleted and I would need to move all my structures to get to something better. The depletion issue is not just with the 5 hour cycles.
Originally by: Olleybear
Its good to see another ex-PI rager calmed down, looked objectivly at what was going on, and decided he was wrong to rage. Bonus points for having the courage to come on the forums to admit it.
As for the people complaining about depletion, yes depletion is now an issue. Your going to have to adjust what your doing. Not using 5 hour cycles all the time would probably be a good idea.
If you continue to use 5 hours cycles under the new system, your going to deplete the resource your extracting. Continuing to use 5 hour cycles and then raging about resource depletion wont change the depletion rate.
Adapt to the new mechanics or lose out on production. Alternatively, you can quit PI in a huff. Your choice.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but it is something needed to be said... again...
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.27 08:20:00 -
[21]
I've given up on the idea of chasing whites or reds. Unless you are exporting P0's and like rebuilding spaceports every few days, forget it. I'll stick with moderate-yield yellow areas which hopefully won't turn into greens, in which case they can turn whatever color they want when I abandon PI until it is fixed.
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Lord Hamilton1
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Posted - 2011.01.27 09:07:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lord Hamilton1 on 27/01/2011 09:08:49
Ok nearly seven days in and this is my take on it all. 10 basic processors - 1 spaceport connected, 1 ECU with 10 pins connected to another spaceport. 24 hour cycle producing between 1,400,000 - 1,700,000 raw materials. Depletion in 48 hours move ECU to next hot spot or nugget, if in reach. If not demolish both ecu and spaceport (945,000 isk). Doing that 3-4 times per week = 4 mill per planet x 5 planets aprx 80 mill per month plus import and export tax (tax to be paid on raw materials as you will need to demolish ecu so you can link spaceport to spaceport to expedite without having to use customs office)
Right so maximum output 24/7 with p0-p1 planet is 10 processors per planet = 50 x 40 units per hour so monthly figure is 50x40x24x7x4 = 1,344,000 units eg Chiral structures @ 657 = 883,008,000 max.
In theory no way can you produce this amount for 1 product or any other, even on a two day cycle its impossible..
Linkage
even with producing say chiral structures and plasmoids on 2 plasma and 3 lava with one factory planet on each account producing transmitters (I have 2 toons with 5 @ 5) the max profit you can get per account is about 500 mill now for **** loads of work( you can do that in 3 days with a tengu pilot).
My take on it, POS fuel will without a doubt rise by a minmum of 30% and in the case of coolant at 8 p/h usage on a pos hit the realms of petrol in a oil crisis.
Pos's themselves well you'll have to watch the prices in the coming weeks as people juggle with the new production rates.
Outlook
Up Wicked Creek without a Pos and a pot to **** in
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tpwh21
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Posted - 2011.01.27 10:50:00 -
[23]
This is not a whining post, would like constructive feedback, analysis:
Seems to me that there are three basic strategies (for me) for the new PI:
1) P0-->p2 minimal maintenance - adapt a p2 on one planet strategy a bit - and take a much lesser yield - say 5-10p2 per planet per hour. With Extractors on a really non optimal resource - just keep on churning the extractors without fiddling each day. (-25% to 50% yield) for around same time per day - or slightly less.
2) PO-->P1 + P2 factory planet. this is only suitable for chars who sit around their PI systems all the time - or return every couple of days. Using this strategy i get around 120% of old p0-->p2 yield. However aggressive depletion means that frequent colony rebuilds are going to be needed - or losing 10% of the value of each p0 unit boosting to extractor coupled to a spaceport and back to the planet again. The time managing the factory planet per day is also a factor. So with the depletion this is going to take - i reckon one rebuild per colony per month - which is say 1 min per colony per day. All in all - around 2x the time of doing it the old way (at minimum).
3) P0-->p2 on single planet - rotating resources - takes around 3 min per planet per day (3X time) for basically the same output - plus better buffer. with a bit of extra fiddling can improve output quite a bit. perhaps up to 30% extra p2 per day.
So in a world where time was not a factor strategy 3 seems most effective. for yield vs time either one or 2 are best.
So P2 pos fuels are going up by between 30%-50% if time matters to PI players. If not they will stay around the same.
market seems to have priced that way already - with enriched uranium for example up around 30%.
Could someone point out the flaws in this analysis?
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Lord Hamilton1
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Posted - 2011.01.27 11:14:00 -
[24]
"This is not a whining post, would like constructive feedback, analysis:"
Ok then how much profit per month will you make with each set up taking into account the cost of rebuilding and moving ECU'S and spaceports also how much tax are you paying and how many hours of work per day per 6 planet account will you be doing for your profit.
My rough guess is at 14 hours per week min of 2 per day I'll be on about 10 mill per hour after all deductions. I used to make 1.1 bill per account @ 30 mill p/h in time investment.
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Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:57:00 -
[25]
All I am seeing in these posts are people still bumping heads with depletion. Repeatedly.
I was halfway through a post explaining when I realized it is pointless. You can tell someone over and over what they are doing wrong and how to fix it, but if they dont listen all your doing is wasting your time.
Those of us who aren't having problems with the new PI are wasting our time on people who refuse to understand what depletion is and how to work with it.
Cost of PI materials will go up as a result. More profit for me. Figure it out for yourselves.
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Chelone
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Olleybear
All I am seeing in these posts are people still bumping heads with depletion. Repeatedly. I was halfway through a post explaining when I realized it is pointless.
Oh what might that be? "Keep moving planets until you find a planet with no one else on it, then set 3-day extraction times with extractors all over the place so as to not anger the depletion gods, then pray no one finds your planet" ?? It doesn't even matter whether you have some band-aid solution. Depletion is happening at laughably high rates and is clearly unbalanced. You're a troll for complaining about people complaining about a valid problem.
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Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Chelone
Oh what might that be?
Another hint:
Theres more than a single P0 on a planet.
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Colonel Vlad
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:30:00 -
[28]
I have a question related to PI and I do hope this is the place to post it..
Say I have the following setup
ECU -- Storage -- Launchpad -- Command Center
If I route stuff directly from ECU to CC and it becomes full, will the overgoing materials stop at Launchpad?? I tried it and by my calculations I lost some stuff on the way. I just want to know wheter it was a bug or intentional. As far as I understand, the routing should be smarter, yes?
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SENTIENEL
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Posted - 2011.01.27 23:31:00 -
[29]
I dont understand. If planets will depleated in 2nd day why there are 14days program in ECU? is this a joke form CCP? like "here you wanted long cycle programs, we are giving you but you will never able to use it"
I tried 3days program for P1 production in gas planet. In 2nd day there was no white spot there. So we still have to do 5 hrs cyc except more drag than click |
Ephraim Glass
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Posted - 2011.01.28 02:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Olleybear
Originally by: Chelone
Oh what might that be?
Another hint:
Theres more than a single P0 on a planet.
^^
CCP's primary goal is not to guarantee that anybody's profit activities remain stable. Perhaps the goal of this change was to discourage static setups and to encourage dynamic ones. Instead of being able to perfectly plan what you're going to do with the outputs of each planet, the unpredictability of the new system encourages you to look at what resources ARE available and then try to figure out what you can do with them. Profit be damned, if CCP was trying to make PI more fun, then they've succeeded in my opinion. It plays more like a tactical puzzle now and I'm enjoying figuring out what I can make with the resources currently at my disposal.
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