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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tres Farmer Edited by: Tres Farmer on 27/01/2011 04:52:59
Incursions aren't an isk-printing-ATM in a constellation near you.
Incursions are group-PvE-content to give you a glimpse of the needs and options how to engage other podpilots. Fly, Die, Adapt, Learn and then BeatTheCrapOutOfOthers.
the problem is that its not.
bascialy if your able to fly missions up to level 4 then you know that you need to optimise your fit for what you do
If you join a corp or aliance whos into PvP then the people there if they are not total bloody idiots will point you to resources on how to fit your ships and tell you what you need to do to succeed.
FW did a hell of a lot better job of preping you for PvP than this crap does.
.end of line.
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If you think your too paranoid to play EvE...
Then you clearly are not paranoid enough to play EvE |
Elleni Stareru
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:30:00 -
[32]
Did I miss something or was incursion interduced as an "PvE" fucntion to the game... im acturly pretty sure it was... so I find it rather amusing you guys keeps using "PvP" as an reference to the whole event, you don't see anything wrong there ? :)
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Takashi X2
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:32:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Originally by: Tres Farmer Edited by: Tres Farmer on 27/01/2011 04:52:59
Incursions aren't an isk-printing-ATM in a constellation near you.
Incursions are group-PvE-content to give you a glimpse of the needs and options how to engage other podpilots. Fly, Die, Adapt, Learn and then BeatTheCrapOutOfOthers.
the problem is that its not.
bascialy if your able to fly missions up to level 4 then you know that you need to optimise your fit for what you do
If you join a corp or aliance whos into PvP then the people there if they are not total bloody idiots will point you to resources on how to fit your ships and tell you what you need to do to succeed.
FW did a hell of a lot better job of preping you for PvP than this crap does.
The problem i see is that no ones is looking at this for what it was ment to be. A Challenging new thing for PVE and PVP pilots alike. Key word here is challenging.
And to be brutely honest i think this brings to light certain tactics in PVP that a carebear might not be aware of like Spider Tanking or working a proper buffer fit. On top of that it FORCES teamwork which is an important part of PVP.
While FW did offer you a chance to get your feet wet it didnt really prep you for more tactical situation if you didnt join a real corp for it.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:33:00 -
[34]
/shrugs
its loss based PvE that has nothing to do with PvP unless you count the people who use the GCC explot to gank entire fleets to be pvp.
or in other words, unless they either nerf the encounters in empire, or seriously boost the payout from Sancha kills, they will probably see a fairly massive loss of interest in this from the player base.
I dont think its quite sunk into them yet that people who play EVE s PvE do so to mostly make money for there PvP or for there financial empire building.
.end of line.
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If you think your too paranoid to play EvE...
Then you clearly are not paranoid enough to play EvE |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 26/01/2011 19:59:22
If the new NPC AI is just going do omni-damage and omni-tank all damage types the same what is the point of having different damage types at all? There is none, it negates the whole point of having differences.
Incursion rats, Sansha now, whatever in the future, should still retain some semblance of their traditional damage types and tanking weakness variations.
/rant.
CCP has brought the idea that NPC should "teach" something about PvP and so has created the Incursion Sansha set up and AI.
As the NPC cheat (a lot) I doubt anyone will learn much about "real" PvP beside managing a fleet and even that will be done (probably) in a way that will make PvPers curdle their toes when they are in one "carebear" Sansha hunting fleet.
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Ocih
Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:35:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ocih on 27/01/2011 07:35:57
Originally by: Elleni Stareru Did I miss something or was incursion interduced as an "PvE" fucntion to the game... im acturly pretty sure it was... so I find it rather amusing you guys keeps using "PvP" as an reference to the whole event, you don't see anything wrong there ? :)
Its another way to lose ships. I never needed help doing that.
And what Venkul said above me.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Elleni Stareru Did I miss something or was incursion interduced as an "PvE" fucntion to the game... im acturly pretty sure it was... so I find it rather amusing you guys keeps using "PvP" as an reference to the whole event, you don't see anything wrong there ? :)
No. Why?
For years there has been a need for more varied pve that properly reflects the variations of ship fittings and strategies seen in pvp but completely absent from pve. Bringing pve closer to how eve actually plays against real opponents has been a stated goal for as long as I've been playing..
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Elleni Stareru
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ocih Edited by: Ocih on 27/01/2011 07:35:57
Originally by: Elleni Stareru Did I miss something or was incursion interduced as an "PvE" fucntion to the game... im acturly pretty sure it was... so I find it rather amusing you guys keeps using "PvP" as an reference to the whole event, you don't see anything wrong there ? :)
Its another way to lose ships. I never needed help doing that.
And what Venkul said above me.
So I should keep laughing each time someone brings up pvp as an reference to incursion and just hope to meet them in low sec sometime soon ? :P
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Ocih
Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:43:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: Elleni Stareru Did I miss something or was incursion interduced as an "PvE" fucntion to the game... im acturly pretty sure it was... so I find it rather amusing you guys keeps using "PvP" as an reference to the whole event, you don't see anything wrong there ? :)
No. Why?
For years there has been a need for more varied pve that properly reflects the variations of ship fittings and strategies seen in pvp but completely absent from pve. Bringing pve closer to how eve actually plays against real opponents has been a stated goal for as long as I've been playing..
True but not in Yulai. |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.27 07:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Takashi X2
The problem i see is that no ones is looking at this for what it was ment to be. A Challenging new thing for PVE and PVP pilots alike. Key word here is challenging.
And to be brutely honest i think this brings to light certain tactics in PVP that a carebear might not be aware of like Spider Tanking or working a proper buffer fit. On top of that it FORCES teamwork which is an important part of PVP.
While FW did offer you a chance to get your feet wet it didnt really prep you for more tactical situation if you didnt join a real corp for it. Except that it competly fails at two of the things that is needed for challenge Based gameplay in a PvE enviroment
Failure 1 is caused by the GCC exploit in that its chidlishly easy for someone to disrupt this, just have a logistics tank get blown to crap by concord.
Failure 2 is that the net reward for doing so is negative.
seriously you get the benifit of getting your system back, the only problem is that (1) you can just move a few systems away to avoid the penatly (2) you have basicaly be a high level player to get rid of them thus enforcing option one on anyone unable to meet the entry goal (3) the Risk/reward ratio is invers to the challenge. literaly high risk, and penuts for reward afterwords. tied to (4) the challeng itself is literaly static content, bascialy once you have done it, with a reward that is, bluntly, not worth the effor of doing it in the first place, theres no real incentive to do it again when the reward is so mutch greater to do literaly ANYTHING ELSE, including sitting in a station playing dots and lines (aka PI)
.end of line.
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If you think your too paranoid to play EvE...
Then you clearly are not paranoid enough to play EvE |
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Sazkyen
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Posted - 2011.01.27 08:05:00 -
[41]
PVE in this game is ridiculous. What's new? PVE ships fail to follow rules that exist in EVE. They are either watered down or overpowered. They also drop ridiculous loot that has ZERO to do with their real fit.
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Elleni Stareru
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Posted - 2011.01.27 08:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sazkyen PVE in this game is ridiculous. What's new? PVE ships fail to follow rules that exist in EVE. They are either watered down or overpowered. They also drop ridiculous loot that has ZERO to do with their real fit.
No one ever said pve was perfect in eve, but incrusion sure isnt the way to make it either, the whole omni everything kinda breaks the ideas to begin with.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.27 13:44:00 -
[43]
So we/they should be flying with just one resistance in a space where people use four different damage types. Oh yeah, that's a good idea. It's like suiting up a army to ONLY fight the eskimos who use kinetic damage. The rest of the world that uses explosive, thermal and EM damage should fear my amazing kinetic resistance! See how stupid that sounds?
Basically you are saying that the NPC's should be morons and drill a big hole in the ship and write "insert thermal missile here" over the hole...
Originally by: CCP Shadow Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
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Jason1138
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:05:00 -
[44]
"Also, if you were say, doing a low sec incursion and you only had to tank EM and thermal, whats to stop some caldari bastard warping in and cluster ****ing your fleet with missiles?"
lol so they do omni damage for our protection. makes sense to me
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Keen Fallsword
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Posted - 2011.01.27 14:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 26/01/2011 19:59:22
If the new NPC AI is just going do omni-damage and omni-tank all damage types the same what is the point of having different damage types at all?
/rant.
Because Design of this game sucks ? And have Leaks as hell ? :)
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Celgone Rahl
Rest ln Peace
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Posted - 2011.01.27 15:17:00 -
[46]
Omnidamage is nothing new... Sleepers? You carebears really need to get out more.
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ROFLCOPTER SOISOISOI
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Posted - 2011.01.27 15:23:00 -
[47]
Ya know if these incursion NPC's are so awesome I wonder if I can tame one and board it. My old Nightmare needs a spruce up.
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Fearless M0F0 Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:06:48 Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:06:05 Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:02:23
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel have you ever done pvp with omni incoming damage? Why wouldn't the Sansha adapt, I have no issue if they have frigs which do therm, and some frigs which do exp, etc, model after all the races if you want, but predictable shouldn't be part of it.
Show me a fit for a frigate, bomber, cruiser and battleship that can: - Omnitank with epic resists - Omnidamage with epic DPS - Oh, and remember they must have Neuts, RR, MWD, web and scram
I don't have a problem with rats being harder as long as it makes sense. Like instead of omnidamage, omnitank. Half of them do EM/Thermal, the other half Exp/Kin.
AFAIK, you can omnitank at the cost of buffer or DPS but sleepers and incursion sanshas don't seem to have that problem
Also, pvp dudes: have you ever been in a battle where you primary a frig or bomber you can't blowup because of RR?
btw: i still can't figure out a battleship fit that can one-shot a drone from 100km away like sleepers do
Hey man, I understand what you are saying, what I am trying to say is there should be variation, perhaps 4 versions of each class, some soft to thermal, some EM etc, why would they make all ships with the same hole. As to damage types, I agree there as well, give them variations, say cruisers are more likely to do EM Thermal, whatever you want. Or keep it simple with Omni, but treating them like sh!tty mission rats is not a good idea. Best regards, Apollo Gabriel
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Samuel Miner
Caldari Perilous Expedition
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:05:00 -
[49]
If the rats were weak against a certain damage type it would also mean they are weak vs a particular race so you make it all equal to provide balance.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:22:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Megan Maynard on 27/01/2011 17:23:23
Originally by: jowming Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:49:38 Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:49:01 Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:39:57 i joined a incursion on the first day they really do to much damage and are way overtanked a frig can hit you for over 600+ damage in the small incursions and tank pretty much any damage your group tosses at it and i made it out fine i left and went back to what i do normaly never lost a ship but i can see why there not going to be done much a normal 6 man group would not have any chance at killing them if your forced to rep everyone and not able to get a shot off
oh and that 600+ damage was in a domi with 80 resists across the board
love alts i get to play barbie everytime i make one
You are FULL of crap. What were you sitting still and not tanking at all? I was able to take down three of these frigs with a similar effort of taking down three rats. The difference is these things actually move with some intellegence which just forced me to use pvp tactics to hit them.
You know, reduce transversal, change directions, and turning my mwd on and off to get a jump on them.
My next time around I won't be so nice, barrage with scram or web will do nicely against these things that seem to think being at 10 km is going to save their asses going 3400 m/s.
My first impression me vs three was annoyance at not hitting as well as i wanted at first, but I was able to pull it off without much worry.
I did notice that MWD'ing at them makes them run and they have some tracking issues when they use their MWD's. (GASP!)
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
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Jitte
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Samuel Miner If the rats were weak against a certain damage type it would also mean they are weak vs a particular race so you make it all equal to provide balance.
Actually I would think it removes the advantage of being able to choose damage types Caldari and (to a lesser extend) Minmatar have, while at the same time boosting Amarr and Gallente by removing the disadvantage of being locked into EM/Therm and Therm/Kin. The fact that these sanshas use neuts might be enough of a boost to Caldari/Minmatar capless weapon systems to justify that small imbalance though. Can anyone who has some experience with them confirm this?
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oolk
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:35:00 -
[52]
Hold your horses.
Incursion have been up for less than 24 hrs!
Adjustments can be done and probably will be done in the futur.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.27 17:36:00 -
[53]
Lots of reading fail and strawmen, but I will answer a few points. This is not about reward or being to difficult.
Yes, resistances are exactly equal across the board according to the combat log analyser. I used standard missiles so that range/fall off etc would make no difference and posted a small extract in the first post as evidence.
If all rats do the same damage across the boat and tank the same damage equally across the board it reduces skill, and doesn't make it more like PvP. PvP fits don't have universal resits, all player ships have strengths and weakness. Skill comes from knowing and exploiting those differences. Player skill is reduced if the MOTM fit becomes automatic Extenders & Invulnerability fields and weapon choice makes no difference.
Omni-Damage and Omni-Resists reduce skill and choice, they dumb down Eve.
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jowming
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Posted - 2011.01.27 21:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Megan Maynard Edited by: Megan Maynard on 27/01/2011 17:23:23
Originally by: jowming Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:49:38 Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:49:01 Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:39:57 i joined a incursion on the first day they really do to much damage and are way overtanked a frig can hit you for over 600+ damage in the small incursions and tank pretty much any damage your group tosses at it and i made it out fine i left and went back to what i do normaly never lost a ship but i can see why there not going to be done much a normal 6 man group would not have any chance at killing them if your forced to rep everyone and not able to get a shot off
oh and that 600+ damage was in a domi with 80 resists across the board
love alts i get to play barbie everytime i make one
You are FULL of crap. What were you sitting still and not tanking at all? I was able to take down three of these frigs with a similar effort of taking down three rats. The difference is these things actually move with some intellegence which just forced me to use pvp tactics to hit them.
You know, reduce transversal, change directions, and turning my mwd on and off to get a jump on them.
My next time around I won't be so nice, barrage with scram or web will do nicely against these things that seem to think being at 10 km is going to save their asses going 3400 m/s.
My first impression me vs three was annoyance at not hitting as well as i wanted at first, but I was able to pull it off without much worry.
I did notice that MWD'ing at them makes them run and they have some tracking issues when they use their MWD's. (GASP!)
no i was using a dominix like i always do cant get much speed with that and my drones were not even able to pop one so im not sure what you were fighting but you must be doing way over 700 dps because my drones could not even break there shield let alone pop one and i was reping so no use to move around much if my job is to sit there and rep someone
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Usagi Tsukino
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.01.27 21:39:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Usagi Tsukino on 27/01/2011 21:40:06
Originally by: Samuel Miner If the rats were weak against a certain damage type it would also mean they are weak vs a particular race so you make it all equal to provide balance.
Exactly. If you were invading all four race's space, why would you only protect your ships against a certain race's damage type?
Originally by: Elleni Stareru Did I miss something or was incursion interduced as an "PvE" fucntion to the game... im acturly pretty sure it was... so I find it rather amusing you guys keeps using "PvP" as an reference to the whole event, you don't see anything wrong there ? :)
And the fact that you and your ilk refuse to accept the fact that you will need to adapt and use certain PvP tactics in dealing with this PvE environment is why there have been probably 10,000 ships lost to NPCs since the incursions started.
Originally by: Batolemaeus With some minimal thought about proper synergy between the ships in fleet the frigates pop before receiving even one rr cycle. With a modicum of planning the cruisers melt in seconds without getting repped one bit.
When a rag-tag band of people who have for the most part never flown together can rush through vanguard sites after a few lines of coordination, like I did earlier with some random people I know only from irc and forums, incursions can't be too hard. We completed them with no losses. With too few people in fleet so we got less payout even. And we weren't in trouble even once.
It's not the sites that are too hard, it's the highsec population that is too weak tbh.
This, TBQH. If you people are going to continue to think these sites are like the 6th room of a L4 AE/GE and you can aggro everyone and tank it with your pimped out Golem with dual-boxed Bassi while you watch last nights American Idol, you are doing it very, very wrong. Especially the American Idol part. ___
Chaotic Dreams |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.27 21:47:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Omni-Damage and Omni-Resists reduce skill and choice, they dumb down Eve.
Quite the opposite.
Omni-damage and omni-resists means that one particular ship/weapon type will not be "the best". You can pick anything you like and make it work. The trick lies in smoothing out the rough spots without making the whole thing poor on average ù a far trickier feat than specialising for one particular damage type in your tank and gank.
Omni means everyone can play, and that you have to actually think how to do it because min-maxing no longer works. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Commander Amy Stewart
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:10:00 -
[57]
Well the advantage of omni resists is that your bonused ships always get the full advantage (like Tengu or Drake's +25% or SBs) and that all ships that are restricted to one or two damage types can participate.
Not only Sleepers AI but also their resists .. is that surprising?
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:54:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 27/01/2011 22:57:34
Originally by: jowming
no i was using a dominix like i always do cant get much speed with that and my drones were not even able to pop one so im not sure what you were fighting but you must be doing way over 700 dps because my drones could not even break there shield let alone pop one and i was reping so no use to move around much if my job is to sit there and rep someone
1. You do not have 600 dps on your domi against a frig. The absolute maximum dps you could put on a frig with your drones would be around 200, if it's webbed a bit and painted to the size of a balloon. 2. You used the wrong tool to kill frigs. 3. You refused to adapt to a direct counter to your ship or bring someone who is much more effective against frigates.
Hint: A ab/mwd Hurricane with autocannons and a web or two will make very short work of frigates and help pin down and control range on larger ships too.
What are you people going to try next? Flinging heavy missiles at unwebbed and unpainted frigates?
//edith:
By the way, sansha do not do perfectly 25/25/25/25 damage. It's split between missiles and turrets, which means you can min/max your tank to take it into account. As an example, my guardian is tanked more towards em/therm, because the missiles, which do kin/exp won't do much damage thanks to my exceptionally small signature even at standstill, while the guns WILL hurt if my transversal isn't good...
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:57:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Batolemaeus What are you people going to try next? Flinging heavy missiles at unwebbed and unpainted frigates?
àyou've missed those glorious solo-Tengu tears in local, I take it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.27 22:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Batolemaeus What are you people going to try next? Flinging heavy missiles at unwebbed and unpainted frigates?
àyou've missed those glorious solo-Tengu tears in local, I take it?
Local?
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