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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.01.25 17:58:00 -
[31]
Edited by: JoCool on 25/01/2005 18:03:06
Hakera you talked about Warp Core Stabilizers. If anything, they must get moved to medium slots and after this get some heavy random slap with the Nerfbat (TomB's nerfbat 'cos it's the mightiest!)
Add:
I'd also like to see sized Warp Scramblers / Warp Core Stabs, like CCP has done it with the mwds.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.01.25 18:00:00 -
[32]
Just introduce long range Warp Disurptors with optimal + falloff
same for EW modules
would be nice to see
and please dont give amarr's some 10-70km warp disurptor, thx
Wanna fly with me?
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4 LOM
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Posted - 2005.01.25 18:25:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: JoCool
Edited by: JoCool on 25/01/2005 18:03:06
Hakera you talked about Warp Core Stabilizers. If anything, they must get moved to medium slots and after this get some heavy random slap with the Nerfbat (TomB's nerfbat 'cos it's the mightiest!)
Add:
I'd also like to see sized Warp Scramblers / Warp Core Stabs, like CCP has done it with the mwds.
Ugg stupid ass idea, there is allready a crap load of mid slot crap, as caldari i allready have to balance all the mid slot stuff, my cerberus has 5 mid slots but 3 of them are used for none tank stuff (web/scrambler/ab-mwd), but a zelot pilot can fit all that crap and still have a good tank. why the hell do you want to move warp core stabs to mid slots? other then to uberize your armour tank even more? omg.
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Arkive
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Posted - 2005.01.25 18:33:00 -
[34]
Is it everyone's desire to make Eve the most hardcore game online? I mean, I'm all for making fun of Carebears and whatnot, but if you introduce a system where someone has the potential of being scrambled regardless of what precautions they take, I think that's kind of lame. Forgive me for saying so, but the area of warp-scrambling has leaned towards the pirates for far too long anyway IMO. It will be interesting to see what CCP actually introduces in these areas.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.01.25 18:42:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Arkive
Is it everyone's desire to make Eve the most hardcore game online? I mean, I'm all for making fun of Carebears and whatnot, but if you introduce a system where someone has the potential of being scrambled regardless of what precautions they take, I think that's kind of lame. Forgive me for saying so, but the area of warp-scrambling has leaned towards the pirates for far too long anyway IMO. It will be interesting to see what CCP actually introduces in these areas.
i would have said the oppostie tbh and I hate pirates and shoot them regularly.
next time fit 6+ wcs and see who can stop you running or some nanos and an mwd. The weight of a scenario is on the ambushed, not the ambushee excludin those who get 0.4+ ganked for not having bm's.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Archimus Zorn
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Posted - 2005.01.25 18:44:00 -
[36]
This is just wishful thinking on my part, but wouldn't you love to be able to fire your guns even if you're jammed and have no target? You know, like a Hail Mary desperation move.
Of course it's totally unfeasible, but nothing gets under my skin like having a guy like 1 km away when I'm jammed. If you're taking up my entire view, you're getting what I'm packing, lock or no lock.
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2005.01.25 18:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Make ECM/ECCM hi-slot.
so...whats the point of a scorpion now? or a BB? This would jsut totally change the roles of loads of ships. amarrian ships would now be best at EW (just about - on average, they have more turrets), and the caldari ships that are meant to be good at it would suck...
it might be inline with original game ideas (ie. that stuff like the domi jam the enemy, then let the drones rip it to shreds) but eve's moved on a long waysince then...
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.01.25 19:18:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shimatu
so...whats the point of a scorpion now? or a BB?
Some ships would need to be looked at that's true.
Originally by: Shimatu
This would jsut totally change the roles of loads of ships. amarrian ships would now be best at EW (just about - on average, they have more turrets), and the caldari ships that are meant to be good at it would suck...
First nobody said that they should require turret hardpoints and all the races have more or less the same number of high slots. Second Caldari would probably keep some of their advantage due to having more cpu than other races ships but in the end this would mean that more than 2 ships could be used as jamming ships.
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Capacitor research |
Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.01.26 09:06:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 26/01/2005 09:10:49
According to one of the links I was given, a problem with ECM was that it's using too many slots, and therefore only a few ships can actually use ECM effectively.
The way I see it, that's not really a problem. Now you have to gimp your defences completely to be able to be a jammer - you can't tank at the same time as being a jammer, unless you fit racial jammers or dampeners on an armor tanked ship.
There is a big problem with randomness to warp disruptors. If that's introduced, it will effectively kill what little is left of ransoming - there is no point whatsoever in trying to ransom someone when they can just try to stall and have a new chance to get away every 10 seconds or so.
I was under the impression that the warp disruptors don't work after you get out of range any longer, ie that it's been fixed, but maybe that's wrong or it's returned to the way it was in some patch.
Some ECM suggestions I have :
1. When jamming, you could get partially jammed - ie you still keep a lock, but it'll fade away for a short while every now and then, making you unable to fire for that period of time, so that it takes longer before you can fire the next shot. This will have the sideeffect of destroying the stream from missile boats though, making it all go at the same time. Also, you should be able to jam completely imo - by stacking more modules for example.
2. Instead of the current increase to duration of the skill, do 2 things. First, change it to a cap redusage bonus. Second, add a effective duration - ie the time that the jammers will actually jam will be shorter than the duration of the jammers, which could be improved with skills - 75% without skills, then +5% for each level. ie :
Electronic Warfare Management : 10% less cap usage per level to EW modules (put all cap bonues in the same skill and make the bonus higher, rename the skill, let the other skills have other effects)
Weapon Disruption : 80% to 100% effective duration to Weapon Disruption modules (ECM, ECCM) (+5/level, level 1 = 80% since it's 75+5)
Sensor Linking : 80% to 100% effective duration to sensor linking modules (remote damps, remote boosters, tracking links and tracking disruptors)
Propulsion Jamming : +5% range to warp disruptors and webifiers for each level
I don't think moving jammers to high slots is good, since the only ones who can still be offensive if that's done is the gallente. It's good enough that they can use nosfs/cap drainers and kill off their prey imo - maybe give some ship bonus to the gallente for those modules instead?
Moving wcs to high slots is an interesting idea. Moving them to the mid slots wouldn't really be good, since you have damage mods in the low slots - you could have a high damage output and still be able to warp away without problem. It's probably best to leave the slot type for the wcs alone.
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Omatje
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Posted - 2005.01.26 10:57:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Omatje on 26/01/2005 11:11:40
Am i the only one who thinks that the EW system works fine as it is?
For all measures there are counter messures except maybe for webbing. Introducing changes to EW will have a major impact on everything in the game:
People setup their ships making risk calculations:
If i don't want to get webbed or scrambled for 2 points, i make a setup with best dammage range for about 11k.
I know i will still be scrambled +1 but i can fit WCS if i'm not happy with it. I know i can still be webbed by some very good webbers but these are not very common so i leave them out of my calculations.
When i'm affraid of dampeners i fit sensor boosters or i fit backup arrays to decrease my chances of getting jammed and so on.
Introducing too many random factors in this will make the art of making a 'prefect ship setup' just a random hope and prey factor on that part, decreasing the value of one of the best features in this game.
Why dont we all f1f2f3 eachother? |
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Artegg
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Posted - 2005.01.26 11:35:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Omatje
Edited by: Omatje on 26/01/2005 11:11:40
Am i the only one who thinks that the EW system works fine as it is?
For all measures there are counter messures except maybe for webbing. Introducing changes to EW will have a major impact on everything in the game:
People setup their ships making risk calculations:
If i don't want to get webbed or scrambled for 2 points, i make a setup with best dammage range for about 11k.
I know i will still be scrambled +1 but i can fit WCS if i'm not happy with it. I know i can still be webbed by some very good webbers but these are not very common so i leave them out of my calculations.
When i'm affraid of dampeners i fit sensor boosters or i fit backup arrays to decrease my chances of getting jammed and so on.
Introducing too many random factors in this will make the art of making a 'prefect ship setup' just a random hope and prey factor on that part, decreasing the value of one of the best features in this game.
I am with you 100% I really dont want to see EW changed at all :(
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.01.26 12:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Omatje
Edited by: Omatje on 26/01/2005 11:11:40
Am i the only one who thinks that the EW system works fine as it is?
<some stuff>
I agree. The only problem I really see with EW is the fact that the skill bonuses are borked.
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Omatje
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Posted - 2005.01.26 12:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Omatje on 26/01/2005 12:24:44
Quote:
I agree. The only problem I really see with EW is the fact that the skill bonuses are borked.
True, most of them are time related where they should be cap related. But it's not anything that has high priority on my 'things i wish they would fix' list.
Why dont we all f1f2f3 eachother? |
Mr Raine
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Posted - 2005.01.26 12:39:00 -
[44]
you know what rule apply's here, DONT FIX WHAT AINT BROKEN,
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.01.26 12:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Xelios
The biggest problem with propulsion jamming right now that I can think of is the fact that once you get scrambled or webbed by anything the effect lasts for the duration of the module, regardless of range. The instant you leave the effective range the module's effects should stop, and re-start when you re-enter range.
Bring back old Torpedo hps, old missile launch mechanics and i will gladly accept this.
Otherwise it's just a way of making sure BSs are totally impervious to tackling frigs/cruisers.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.01.26 13:05:00 -
[46]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 26/01/2005 13:08:29
Originally by: Hakera
whole point is ew is not meant to be absolute, within your optimal range, a warp disruptor should work at 100% efficiency so an interceptor without wcs wont get away as now, in your falloff there would be chance of escape.
Not really sure what my opinion is on this one mate. On one side I agree... on the other hand I sacrifice a lot or all of my defense for EW. Dropping my entire defense to maybe have a chance of jamming my opponent under certain circumstances seems pretty pointless as far as I can tell.
I'd be fine with such a system as long as all those SP I invest in my EW skills give me a base chance of around 80% to jam my opponent. Anything less would be russian roulette for my ship and char.
After all we will however have to wait until TomB or whoever is responsible for all this EW stuff comes up with some specific concepts and data. The old info on this is most likely outdated/invalid by now.
Mai's Idealog |
Grut
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Posted - 2005.01.26 13:08:00 -
[47]
To me ew changes means fixing the skill bonus so it gets better as you change it and not the other way round, and nerfing damps abit apart from that it aint broke, and theres plenty of other stuff that could do with some attention misslies & hybrids for 2.
Mostly harmless |
Holi
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Posted - 2005.01.26 13:21:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Originally by: Shimatu
This would jsut totally change the roles of loads of ships. amarrian ships would now be best at EW (just about - on average, they have more turrets), and the caldari ships that are meant to be good at it would suck...
First nobody said that they should require turret hardpoints and all the races have more or less the same number of high slots. Second Caldari would probably keep some of their advantage due to having more cpu than other races ships but in the end this would mean that more than 2 ships could be used as jamming ships.
I agree, make EW high-slot, and so Caldari ships get the bonus they are supposed to have, just slap on some +xy% to EW module optimal range or +xy% EW module success chance (or whatever) bonus on the Scorp, BB and other EW oriented ships.
Caldari will still be better at EW than the other races, but at least midslot-challenged races will be able to use that EW thing aswell.
--
Holi - midslot-challenged
[ md5 checksum calculator ] |
Nafri
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:19:00 -
[49]
making EW higslots would only lead into more stupid amarr ships on the battlefield
Wanna fly with me?
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nafri
making EW higslots would only lead into more stupid amarr ships on the battlefield
Actually it would make most sense to use EW on the dominix if it was turned into high slot items.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:29:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Scorpyn
Originally by: Nafri
making EW higslots would only lead into more stupid amarr ships on the battlefield
Actually it would make most sense to use EW on the dominix if it was turned into high slot items.
mhhh, Geddons with 8 highslots would be more tasty for fleet combats
atm you fit just 8 multies or damps on fleet scorps, now it would be geddons wich also could tank
imbalanced
Wanna fly with me?
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:38:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Arkive
Is it everyone's desire to make Eve the most hardcore game online? I mean, I'm all for making fun of Carebears and whatnot, but if you introduce a system where someone has the potential of being scrambled regardless of what precautions they take, I think that's kind of lame.
Yeah, but the more precautions they take, the less likely that is to happen, and even if it does, it's very unlikely they'll stay scrambled in the next scrambler cycle. And also consider that on the other side, you now have a chance of breaking out even if your precautions wouldn't normally be enough.
Originally by: Archimus Zorn
Of course it's totally unfeasible, but nothing gets under my skin like having a guy like 1 km away when I'm jammed. If you're taking up my entire view, you're getting what I'm packing, lock or no lock.
That is an interesting point. Of course at any decent range, manually "guessing" your aim just wouldn't work. But if you get point-blank with someone, you should be able to get a dumbfire point-and-shoot oppourtunity - even if it is at reduced damage cause you can't pick out vulnerable areas of the ship. And obviously this should be more effective the bigger the target.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:39:00 -
[53]
i still dont see a reason you cant "manualy" operate the guns with old fashion style?
you can shoot F.o.F's but noo, no manual gunning... On/Off gunn jamming sucks
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Germain
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:49:00 -
[54]
hello everyone.
i am pretty new to this game and i am just training up two EW guys to help protect my corp mining operations eg. ships ect... not the roids.
PLEASE PLEASE do not change EW as i am only just getting my skill point high enoght to run EW stuff well. As far as i can tell noobs can use EW to run away from the 0.1 space ect ppl. as we do not have the fire power to kill Bships all the time. EW is our only hope.
As it is it seems ok all but for the ship bounsus there shoudl be a ship in each race that is almost as good as each other in EW, i think the only having the BB with a bonus is a bit iffy (unbalanced).
just an additon to this - ruptur= solid and slow, stabber= weak and fast, sythe= digs well = can have missiles, and the other one this could be the EW solid-ish with EW bonuses like the BB.
i can only coment on one race as i do not have the skills yet to fly others for a good comparison, but i hope that you get my meaning.
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Captain Rod
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:58:00 -
[55]
I would really be against changing EW "alot". I think it is a simple and effective system as it is. Yes a few things should be looked at like the cycle of a module carrying on after a ship is out of range maybe. The ideas that revolve around range and falloff might be interesting.
However, the sacrifices pilots make when fitting EW kit AND ECCM gear are just that. Sacrifices, trade-offs. An EW boat or a ship ready to counter an EW boat has no tank and a crap damage output normally.
So what will justify the set up if its got a chance of failing to do its job? Hmm not much really.
Oh HaK. My mate had 6 WCSs in when his APOC got gate ganked by 7 interceptors and a Raven. Believe me when I say he WASN'T going anywhere.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.01.26 14:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Scorpyn
Originally by: Nafri
making EW higslots would only lead into more stupid amarr ships on the battlefield
Actually it would make most sense to use EW on the dominix if it was turned into high slot items.
mhhh, Geddons with 8 highslots would be more tasty for fleet combats
atm you fit just 8 multies or damps on fleet scorps, now it would be geddons wich also could tank
imbalanced
It would make even more sense for a dominix since it can jam you, tank, and still have firepower from its drones. Only problem is the short range.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.26 15:06:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Scorpyn
The way I see it, that's not really a problem. Now you have to gimp your defences completely to be able to be a jammer - you can't tank at the same time as being a jammer, unless you fit racial jammers or dampeners on an armor tanked ship.
Except jamming is in itself a form of defence - you don't need to tank damage from a target that can't shoot at you.
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Not really sure what my opinion is on this one mate. On one side I agree... on the other hand I sacrifice a lot or all of my defense for EW. Dropping my entire defense to maybe have a chance of jamming my opponent under certain circumstances seems pretty pointless as far as I can tell.
Well, if you're fitting that much EW, you'd be looking at tiny chances of it failing - and even then it would only fail for one cycle, not long enough for most ships to even re-establish a lock.
To be honest, I don't see the new system altering things much for the harcore EW setups - they use such a quantity of it anyway that the failure rate would be negligable. It'll probably only make a real difference when the EW vs ECCM balance between two opponents is finely poised. Right now, even the smallest differences between EW and ECCM abilities tip the whole balance of the fight one way or the other. I'd like to see the changes maintain the extremes as absolute one way or the other, but allow for a grey area in the middle, where closely matched capabilities give something to both sides.
Originally by: Siddy
i still dont see a reason you cant "manualy" operate the guns with old fashion style?
you can shoot F.o.F's but noo, no manual gunning... On/Off gunn jamming sucks
Consider the sort of aiming accuracy you'd need to actually hit a target at anything other than point-blank range. This isn't like shooting a rifle, or even a conventional RL mounted gun. Assuming a BS is presenting a 400m-square target, at 10km range, your aim has to be accurate to within 2.29 degrees. at 20km, 1.15 degrees. That isn't an easy shot to make, even if you have time to line it up. In eve you generally won't - your target will be moving and changing direction, without a target lock you'll have to lead them manually too. Sure, the chance to try would be nice, but the likeihood of succeeding would be so low in most situations it probably wouldn't be worth it.
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Trey Azagthoth
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Posted - 2005.01.26 15:06:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 26/01/2005 15:07:14
Being an EW pilot, let me say 1 thing. There actually are cons to EW. An effective EW setup which is used in solo killing relies on using all available slots for EW modules, hence no tanking involved for the ship. Now, should I come upon someone who just so happened to have a backup array on, and I was not able to jam them, then I would get wtfpwned in a matter of seconds. But, being an EW pilot, thats the risk I take.
And FoFs can always wreck my day quite nicely, so as you can see, EW isnt always king.
Vin Diesel claims he has never hailed a taxi. He just runs up to them at stop lights, opens the door, shoves the current passenger over, and tells the cab driver what his new destination is. |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.01.26 15:14:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Captain Rod
However, the sacrifices pilots make when fitting EW kit AND ECCM gear are just that. Sacrifices, trade-offs. An EW boat or a ship ready to counter an EW boat has no tank and a crap damage output normally.
Well, the EW boat shouldn't need to tank as it is jamming for defence instead, so only the ECCM-fitted boat really loses out here.
And as for jamming ships having poor damage, I can categorically say that is not necessarily the case. You can set-up caldari battleships to melt even the strongest apoc tank in short order, and still have them mount a complete jammer set.
Originally by: Captain Rod
Oh HaK. My mate had 6 WCSs in when his APOC got gate ganked by 7 interceptors and a Raven. Believe me when I say he WASN'T going anywhere.
Well, 8 against 1 like that should always be a foregone conclusion really.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.01.26 15:14:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Scorpyn
The way I see it, that's not really a problem. Now you have to gimp your defences completely to be able to be a jammer - you can't tank at the same time as being a jammer, unless you fit racial jammers or dampeners on an armor tanked ship.
Except jamming is in itself a form of defence - you don't need to tank damage from a target that can't shoot at you.
True, but only for very small fights.
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