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Kryos Orestripper
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Posted - 2011.01.30 01:37:00 -
[1]
Hi folks,
I have been trying to find out why people would use Ballistic Control System (I or II) in multiple slots. It says in the description that using more than 1 will incur a penalty, but I cannot figure out what the penalty is, and if it's worth it to use more than one.
I am currently training for this Caracal loadout, as it seems to be quite popular, but I noticed it had 2 of the ballistic control systems. Is that good? What penalty does it incur?
Thanks so much,
Kryos
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.30 01:40:00 -
[2]
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_penalty
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Kryos Orestripper
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Posted - 2011.01.30 03:27:00 -
[3]
*sharpens his google skills*
Thank you, sir. I really did look lol.
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I likegirls
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.30 03:55:00 -
[4]
Because eve players like being "penalized"
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Nanferr
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Posted - 2011.01.30 06:50:00 -
[5]
If you are flying for PVE, ultimately you want 8++ GANK helping mods on any ship.
ANY PVE Ship
for gunboats, damage mod, TE,TC, gun rigs, painters, etc
and for missile boats, missile rigs, ballistics, painters, etc
YES and 4 damage mod is a must for any ship that can fit it. PVE means max gank, and give any lv 4 mission ship, i can make it fit 8 gank mods.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2011.01.30 07:18:00 -
[6]
Assuming that missiles are your primary weapon system, a third BCU-II will increase your DPS by 11%. A fourth gives an additional 6%, and a 5th around 1% (same for guns and their respective damage mods)
*figures are estimates
Vote Sokratesz for CSM-6! |
SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Aperture Science inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.30 11:47:00 -
[7]
Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
General consensus is that 2 damage mods is the BARE MINIMUM (due to above reason), 3 damage mods is roughly normal (and I believe most people use this), 4 damage mods depends on who you ask. Some ships can pull it off, others can't, some people prefer something else in that lowslot due to diminishing returns. __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2011.01.30 20:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Maybe I'm being dense but would you care to explain that one?
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Aperture Science inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.30 21:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Maybe I'm being dense but would you care to explain that one?
I'm talking pure dps.
damagemods apply their buff to dps total incl. previous buffs.
Meaning for instance:
Rifter, 3x 200mm AC, lvl5 skills, EMP S: 89 dps Rifter, same as above, +1 T2 gyro: 108 dps, +19 dps more. Rifter, same as above, +2nd T2 gyro: 129 dps, +21 dps more.
As you can see, the 2nd gyro adds 2 raw dps more than the 1st gyro, as the stacking penalty is less than the original buff from the 1st gyro. __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.01.31 00:46:00 -
[10]
It has to do with the fact that stacking penalized modules all act multiplicatively. For example, two 50% increases do not double something -- they actually increase it by 125%.
Stacking penalties are usually insufficient to reduce the increase of a second module below that of the first (you'll usually add a larger absolute amount of damage from the second module than from the first), but for subsequent effects, the stacking penalty becomes heavy enough that you start to notice it.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2011.01.31 17:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Maybe I'm being dense but would you care to explain that one?
I'm talking pure dps.
Durr. K. My reading fail.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.31 17:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Translation: The individual bonuses are sorted from best to worst and then the stacking penalty is applied in order. So your best bonus isn't penalized, the second best bonus gets the first stacking penalty (87%,) the third best gets the second stacking penalty (57%,) etc..
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Hauling Hal
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Posted - 2011.01.31 18:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Hauling Hal on 31/01/2011 18:15:31
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Translation: The individual bonuses are sorted from best to worst and then the stacking penalty is applied in order. So your best bonus isn't penalized, the second best bonus gets the first stacking penalty (87%,) the third best gets the second stacking penalty (57%,) etc..
Percentages don't care what order they are multiplied in. A half of two-thirds of 6 is the same as two-thirds of half of 6 or even 6 times a half of two-thirds...
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Aperture Science inc.
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Posted - 2011.01.31 19:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hauling Hal Edited by: Hauling Hal on 31/01/2011 18:15:31
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Translation: The individual bonuses are sorted from best to worst and then the stacking penalty is applied in order. So your best bonus isn't penalized, the second best bonus gets the first stacking penalty (87%,) the third best gets the second stacking penalty (57%,) etc..
Percentages don't care what order they are multiplied in. A half of two-thirds of 6 is the same as two-thirds of half of 6 or even 6 times a half of two-thirds...
While you are correct in your rebuttal of stoicfaux's post, your post I am afraid serves only to confuse people further than need be.
Regardless, assuming anyone can string our posts together into a coherent informative whole I do believe things should be clear now to the OP, so I consider our work here done!
*heads off to the pub* __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.31 20:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hauling Hal
Percentages don't care what order they are multiplied in. A half of two-thirds of 6 is the same as two-thirds of half of 6 or even 6 times a half of two-thirds...
It matters because it is not straight multiplication. http://wiki.eve-id.net/Stacking
"And Ai being the bonus to the attribute (either positive or negative), and sorted so that A A i i 1 $ + , which means that the largest bonus comes first."
or X4 = X0*(1+A0)(1+.87*A1)(1+0.57*A2)(1+0.28*A2)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.01.31 20:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hauling Hal Edited by: Hauling Hal on 31/01/2011 18:15:31
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Also, note that sometimes the 2nd damagemod actually gives more bonus than the 1st due to the stacking penalty being less than the bonus the 1st damage mod gave.
Translation: The individual bonuses are sorted from best to worst and then the stacking penalty is applied in order. So your best bonus isn't penalized, the second best bonus gets the first stacking penalty (87%,) the third best gets the second stacking penalty (57%,) etc..
Percentages don't care what order they are multiplied in. A half of two-thirds of 6 is the same as two-thirds of half of 6 or even 6 times a half of two-thirds...
What stoicfaux says certainly matters a great deal when dealing with mods + T1/T2 rigs. For example, it's the reason you get almost nothing from the rig in a setup with 3x CN Ballistic Control Units + 1x T1 Bay Load Accelerator, but plenty from the T2 version! --
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.31 20:32:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Two Shots on 31/01/2011 20:35:00 @Kryos Orestripper
The Reader's Digest Condensed version of the above posts is that fitting two Ballistic Control Systems in your Caracal's low-power slots is a good idea because the stacking penalty is not severe enough to overcome the additional bonus. You should definitely do it. You will not suffer any ill effect for doing so, and you will be maximizing your ship's performance. When considering fits for future ships, you will generally want to fit at least two Ballistic Control Systems in your low-power slots. A third is also a good investment because you are still getting a good improvement despite the stacking penalty. When and if you move on to the Drake battlecruiser, many common fits allow for either two or three Ballistic Control Systems and various other modules in the low-power slots depending on the ship's intended role (PVE or PVP). Beyond the third module, returns on your investment are very low. You will not really come across a reason to fit more than three until such time as you graduate to a Raven or a Tengu, which both have sufficient CPU and defensive potential to fit them without sacrificing practical survivability. For now just stick two of them in your Caracal's low-power slots and start thinking about which sort of ships you want to fly in the future, and in what situations.
Two Shots Goonwaffe
Goonswarm Federation Official Recruiting Officer |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Two Shots If, for example, it takes you 4 shots to kill a NPC cruiser with 2 Ballistic Control Systems fit, and adding a third one does not change this, then that third Ballistic Control System has not done anything useful for you.
Very good points, but one minor nitpick: the 3rd BCU does improve your rate of fire so while your Volleys To Kill (VTK) didn't improve, your Time To Kill (TTK) did improve (slightly.)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Two Shots If, for example, it takes you 4 shots to kill a NPC cruiser with 2 Ballistic Control Systems fit, and adding a third one does not change this, then that third Ballistic Control System has not done anything useful for you.
Very good points, but one minor nitpick: the 3rd BCU does improve your rate of fire so while your Volleys To Kill (VTK) didn't improve, your Time To Kill (TTK) did improve (slightly.)
This is true. The difference in time will be very minuscule, but if you literally grind missions for hours straight like some WOW players grind for gold then you will definitely see an improvement over time. The question then becomes if you've saved enough time on each mission you've completely slightly faster that you're able to fit in at least one more mission during your allotted time for playing that you otherwise would not have. If the answer for that is yes, then you have profited! If the answer for that is no, then you have still profited by getting back to your life quicker. Always go for more damage!
Two Shots Goonwaffe
Goonswarm Federation Official Recruiting Officer |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.31 21:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Two Shots Always go for more damage!
I think we can pretty much declare this as the first and most holy law of EVE and leave it at that. ששששש
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.01.31 22:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Two Shots Always go for more damage!
I think we can pretty much declare this as the first and most holy law of EVE and leave it at that.
Holy Law of PvE that is. PvP equivalent is "Always go for more tears!".
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
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Posted - 2011.01.31 23:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: stoicfaux Very good points, but one minor nitpick: the 3rd BCU does improve your rate of fire so while your Volleys To Kill (VTK) didn't improve, your Time To Kill (TTK) did improve (slightly.)
This is true. The difference in time will be very minuscule, but if you literally grind missions for hours straight like some WOW players grind for gold then you will definitely see an improvement over time. The question then becomes if you've saved enough time on each mission you've completely slightly faster that you're able to fit in at least one more mission during your allotted time for playing that you otherwise would not have.
Actually, RoF is even more useful. If you need to get something else done starting in 20 minutes, being able to complete a mission in 18 is a great thing compared to only being able to do one in 20.
For the playtime-strapped, RoF bonuses are god.
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knentil
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Posted - 2011.01.31 23:25:00 -
[23]
I put 5 gyro II on an alphastrike insta locking arty cane to annoy newbs in permanent pve complexs.
Its quite fun.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2011.02.01 06:56:00 -
[24]
This is why I love EVE. Someone poses an innocent question and look what you get lol.
Vote Sokratesz for CSM-6! |
Mavnas
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Posted - 2011.02.01 07:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Two Shots If, for example, it takes you 4 shots to kill a NPC cruiser with 2 Ballistic Control Systems fit, and adding a third one does not change this, then that third Ballistic Control System has not done anything useful for you.
Very good points, but one minor nitpick: the 3rd BCU does improve your rate of fire so while your Volleys To Kill (VTK) didn't improve, your Time To Kill (TTK) did improve (slightly.)
Except more Rate of Fire can actually hurt you on a missile ship because of travel time. The higher your RoF, the more likely you will shoot an extra volley at a target that's already going to die. This is less of an issue at low SP or on missiles with lower flight time, but for example if I'm not careful on my Nighthawk I can shoot a target at max range 2 extra times. If it only takes me 3 vollies to kill that target, shooting it 5 times is quite a waste of DPS.
Right now on my NH, 24-25km seems to be the range beyond which my fury missiles need to be carefully watched . (This matters less against battleships which take many vollies, but against cruisers/BCs at 50km+ this can cause a drop of 33-40% in DPS done.)
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Kaatchina
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Posted - 2011.02.01 15:42:00 -
[26]
One newb question here, if I have two different modules giving bonuses to the same stat, the outcome will be different if one or the other is considered the "first" module and the other gets the penalty. So what determines that order ?
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Sessym
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kaatchina One newb question here, if I have two different modules giving bonuses to the same stat, the outcome will be different if one or the other is considered the "first" module and the other gets the penalty. So what determines that order ?
The highest bonus is applied first, then the others in decreasing order.
0= - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'So grab your guns.'
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.01 16:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kaatchina One newb question here, if I have two different modules giving bonuses to the same stat, the outcome will be different if one or the other is considered the "first" module and the other gets the penalty. So what determines that order ?
It does not matter in what order you put them into the slots if that's your concern.
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