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Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 13:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Claire Raynor on 02/02/2011 13:06:15 Hi all, I need some help - possibly my EVE's not working quite right - dunno. Anyway - I was in a fleet with a Miner and I was in my transport. We are in the same NPC corporation. Then some pirate type came and flipped the miner's can. I went back to the space station and got my Hurricane. My miner couldn't fire back because he didn't have any guns and I couldn't do anything either because the pirate wasn't flashing. The pirate was being nasty on local. So my miner went and opened the can back again. Then the pirate opened fire on my miner friend. I opened fire on the pirate. And then I lost my Hurricane to concord. Is this how it's suppoesed to work? Cheers
Jennifer Starling State War Academy	Posted - 2011.02.02 13:10:00 - [2] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 02/02/2011 13:11:21 "Same corp" agression doesn't work in NPC corps, only player corps. Fleeting has no effect on agression rules whatsoever (except for mission looting afaik).
Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 13:20:00 - [3] That's a bit weird is it? So there's nothing a mining fleet can do about can flipping pirates? I suppose I should have looted our can back off the pirate with my hurricane then as oppossed to the miner? That'd have done what the pirate did to us back to him. But would I take a security status hit for "Stealing" our can back of the pirate? At least the pirate's buddies wouldn't be able to join in and fire at me when I take our can back.
foksieloy Minmatar Universal Army	Posted - 2011.02.02 14:31:00 - [4] Originally by: Claire Raynor That's a bit weird is it? No. The alternative is that any newb corp member could steal from any other. Enter tear central. Originally by: Claire Raynor So there's nothing a mining fleet can do about can flipping pirates? If they mine a lot together, why not form a corp together? Then you can protect them. Originally by: Claire Raynor But would I take a security status hit for "Stealing" our can back of the pirate? Yes. Originally by: Claire Raynor At least the pirate's buddies wouldn't be able to join in and fire at me when I take our can back. They would, if he was in a player corp. Conclusion: if you are bothered with this, leave the newb corp. _______________________ Drink Eau du Nichup«, the taste of heaven. Now available as Nichup Citrus« as well!
TwmSion Cati	Posted - 2011.02.02 14:44:00 - [5] Agreed, it's easy enough to start your own corp. It ain't perfect but it works.
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.02.02 14:49:00 - [6] Originally by: foksieloy Originally by: Claire Raynor But would I take a security status hit for "Stealing" our can back of the pirate? Yes. I'm not so sure about that, actually. I don't recall ever losing sec status for can flipping people, which is essentially what he would be doing. Aggression rights, sure, but not sec status.
Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 14:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Claire Raynor on 02/02/2011 14:54:24 OK - I guess I was thinking there was more significance to fleets. I was hoping there would be a way for ad-hoc groups of us, (casual players who come together where we meet - in asteroid fields or in local chat or NPC corp Chat), to do stuff and interact more fully as a single entity. I don't want to be in a player owned guild because I've heard that you just get told what to do 24/7. Even Eve-Uni will blow you up if your ship is not fitted out to their guidlines or you are not where you're supposed to be, (according to their own literature). It's bad enough looking over your shoulder for Reds let alone your own corp's police! So I guess if I'm or my fleet friends are getting can flipped it's time to log off for the day or do something else for a bit.
Kidain Gallente Rule of Five	Posted - 2011.02.02 15:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Claire Raynor Edited by: Claire Raynor on 02/02/2011 14:54:24 OK - I guess I was thinking there was more significance to fleets. I was hoping there would be a way for ad-hoc groups of us, (casual players who come together where we meet - in asteroid fields or in local chat or NPC corp Chat), to do stuff and interact more fully as a single entity. I don't want to be in a player owned guild because I've heard that you just get told what to do 24/7. Even Eve-Uni will blow you up if your ship is not fitted out to their guidlines or you are not where you're supposed to be, (according to their own literature). It's bad enough looking over your shoulder for Reds let alone your own corp's police! So I guess if I'm or my fleet friends are getting can flipped it's time to log off for the day or do something else for a bit. I've been around since May 2003 and can safely say I have never been in any corp like you have just described. EVE Uni is totally different as they are (as such) offering a service to help people and cannot afford to be messed around. I beg of you search the recruitment threads or the Channel in game because I can safely say no corp "orders" you around 24/7 unless they are hardcore elite but then you just don't apply. I'd offer you a chance at my corp but we are not recruiting at the minute :( -------------------------------------- In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion. - Douglas Adams
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.02 15:50:00 - [9] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 02/02/2011 15:53:47 Originally by: Claire Raynor Even Eve-Uni will blow you up if your ship is not fitted out to their guidlines or you are not where you're supposed to be, (according to their own literature). It's bad enough looking over your shoulder for Reds let alone your own corp's police! I think you've read the rules wrong. Originally by: Eve University Wartime Policies War Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) Anyone found violating the above will be warned, and should dock immediately. Failure to do so may lead to the destruction of their ship and/or capsule. * If you don't do what they tell you, you may get blown-up by the enemy. * If you don't follow the reasonable rules and make trouble, they may shoot you themselves. Those are not to be worried about. If anything it gets rid of the jerks.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2011.02.02 15:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Claire Raynor Even Eve-Uni will blow you up if your ship is not fitted out to their guidlines or you are not where you're supposed to be, (according to their own literature). Only during war and only after several warnings. If you can't/won't stick the wartime rules, you are allowed to leave EVE Uni for the duration of the war, so it's not unfair that people who break the wartime rules get punished.
Velicitia Open Designs	Posted - 2011.02.02 16:13:00 - [11] Edited by: Velicitia on 02/02/2011 16:14:18 Originally by: Claire Raynor I don't want to be in a player owned guild because I've heard that you just get told what to do 24/7. Two solutions to this: 1. Don't join a corp like that. There are plenty "for fun" groups in addition to the more strict groups. 2. Make your own. IIRC it costs something like a million isk, and you need Corporation Management to level 1. Originally by: Claire Raynor Even Eve-Uni will blow you up if your ship is not fitted out to their guidlines or you are not where you're supposed to be, (according to their own literature). Never joined with E-UNI, so I'm not sure... edit -- see above...
Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 16:23:00 - [12] Err Wow, EVE Uni ppl are a bit sensative no? But I have made no mis-representation. I made reference to EVE Uni and said that "even" they would blow you up for not doing as you were told. It is true. I used the word "Even" because EVE Uni is a well respected large organisation with a kindly mission to help people. And yet such an organisation as this still threatens sanctions against it's members for not doing as they're told. Wether or not they ever carry these sanctions out or not, or the frequency of this occuring is irrelevant to me as it's the threat I don't like. Now there may well be good reasons for these threats but never-the-less it highlights the point I was making; that I don't want to be in a player guild: Like I went on to add. . . I don't want to have to be looking over my shoulder for corp mates as well as Reds. . Sometimes, (and read "always" here), I won't want to feel obliged to do what someone else wants me to do in my very limited free time. Back to the original post. If a guild is the only way to do activities in a co-operative way, or more specifically, to be able to react in a collective way, then someday if enough of us are regularly doing the same sort of thing then we might make a guild. It just seems a pity that untill that happens there isn't a way to do it on an Ad-Hoc basis.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2011.02.02 16:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Claire Raynor And yet such an organisation as this still threatens sanctions against it's members for not doing as they're told. There's a difference between being told to do something and being told not to do something. If you're told not to drink and drive, you can still do any number of other things.
Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 17:06:00 - [14] Edited by: Claire Raynor on 02/02/2011 17:08:33 And if you don't join at all - you neither get told to-do or not-to-do anything. Which is where I want to be. Back to the OP. It's just a shame that for players who work with players that aren't necessarily in the same guild as one another the above scenario, in the first post, can't be dealt with in a manner other than by walking away.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2011.02.02 17:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Claire Raynor Back to the OP. It's just a shame that for players who work with players that aren't necessarily in the same guild as one another the above scenario, in the first post, can't be dealt with in a manner other than by walking away. Fleet mechanics used to allow fleet members to do a lot more things than now. It was changed because the mechanics were complicated and were used to bait unaware players. So be careful what you wish for.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2011.02.02 17:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Claire Raynor Back to the OP. It's just a shame that for players who work with players that aren't necessarily in the same guild as one another the above scenario, in the first post, can't be dealt with in a manner other than by walking away. You could have remote repped your friend. The flipper could then chose to leave or start shooting at you - at which point you can shoot back. Yes, beeing in an NPC corp has downsides compared to beeing in a player corp - but it has benefits to compensate (no wardecs). Btw: it's called corporation, not "guild" in this game.
Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 17:30:00 - [17] Yeah - I got baited once before and it took me ages to work out what had happened. Especially for new players who mightn't be able to afford to replace the ship they're flying, as I couldn't, then I guess there is a balance to be met. I think the only thing I should have done was to have been the one who took the can back off the pirate. That way he'd not have been able to shoot my miner buddy just me. Still not sure if Can flipping gives you a security rating hit. I can find articles that say it both does and that it does not - even posts in this thread offer both outcomes as the result.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2011.02.02 18:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Claire Raynor Still not sure if Can flipping gives you a security rating hit. I can find articles that say it both does and that it does not - even posts in this thread offer both outcomes as the result. Stealing from a can will NOT give you a sec hit. All those ninja looters / salvagers would soon not be able to enter highsec anymore. And about corps: there are a lot of laid back freelancer corps. You do stuff together if you like, but no one will be upset if you just do your own thing whenever you feel like it.
Cathy Drall Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.02.02 18:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Nika Dekaia And about corps: there are a lot of laid back freelancer corps. You do stuff together if you like, but no one will be upset if you just do your own thing whenever you feel like it. Yes - don't be afraid for carebear mining corps! They just mine all day long and won't force you to do anything. Just say "hello" in corp chat when you logon and participate in one of the exciting mining ops every once in a while! "Im not nearly as paranoid as people think I am"
mkmin	Posted - 2011.02.02 18:53:00 - [20] 1) The best security against can flipping is not trying to out-PVP the potential thieves. Go to a system with less traffic and you're less likely to get thieves. Have no more than 15 minutes of ore in your container to minimize your potential losses. Destroy your can with drones if someone looks like they are about to come steal or flip it (watch your overview closely, zoom out to see what's going on around you. 2) You don't get security status hits for stealing. You only get sec status hits for illegal aggression. 3) Any corp that deals "sanctions" do so to protect their members. Being in a player corp automatically makes any form of aggression against other members legal (which isn't as big a problem as you might think) so corps have policies in place to discourage and punish in-corp harassment. Yes, there will be corps who require you to do things their way 24/7. Don't join those corps. There will be FC's who shoot you for being stupid. Be glad you're in a fleet that knows what stupid looks like. This is a game where trust is a valuable asset, and distrust is the norm. People protect trust with force. It gives the game depth, and makes your relationships and betrayals matter. Learn to embrace it if you want to get the most out of the game.
Velicitia Open Designs	Posted - 2011.02.02 19:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Claire Raynor Yeah - I got baited once before and it took me ages to work out what had happened. Especially for new players who mightn't be able to afford to replace the ship they're flying, as I couldn't, then I guess there is a balance to be met. I think the only thing I should have done was to have been the one who took the can back off the pirate. That way he'd not have been able to shoot my miner buddy just me. Still not sure if Can flipping gives you a security rating hit. I can find articles that say it both does and that it does not - even posts in this thread offer both outcomes as the result.
Claire Raynor	Posted - 2011.02.02 20:47:00 - [22] Thanks everyone for your kind advice. It's really good to have nailed down the mechanics for fleets and flagging for the scenario above. I will look for a nice Carebear Corporation :) (not guild) and will really enjoy mining. I don't AFK mine - but I mine for hours and then go to bed. I used to spend hours fishing in another MMORPG. Tnks everyone :)
Cathy Drall Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.02.02 21:27:00 - [23] Well if you want to be able to shoot at meanie can flippers just use your can and not the miners'. Leave a bookmark or whatever in the can so it doesn't vanish when you haul it back to base. This way you will get aggro with the can flipper then instead of the defenseless miner and you can shoot him at will! tadaa! "Im not nearly as paranoid as people think I am"
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.02 21:39:00 - [24] Hi. If I have understood wrongly, please correct me. Thank you. If my friend and I are in the same player corp but not in gang and if a pirate takes my friend's can, my friend will get the kill rights. At that point, can I shoot the pirate without Concord killing me? At that point, I know my friend can shoot the pirate and if the pirate shoots him back, can I shoot the pirate without the Concord killing me? Now, almost the same question. If my friend and I are in different player corp but in the same gang and if a pirate takes my friend's can, my friend will get the kill rights. At that point, can I shoot the pirate without Concord killing me? At that point, I know my friend can shoot the pirate and if the pirate shoots him back, can I shoot the pirate without the Concord killing me? --------- The making of the new Jenny Spitfire
mkmin	Posted - 2011.02.02 21:50:00 - [25] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. If I have understood wrongly, please correct me. Thank you. If my friend and I are in the same player corp but not in gang and if a pirate takes my friend's can, my friend will get the kill rights. Don't mix up the concept of aggro rights and kill rights. They are two entirely different things. Containers are considered to be corp assets (when in a player corp), so yes, anyone who takes from a can gets aggro from the whole corp. Quote: At that point, can I shoot the pirate without Concord killing me? At that point, I know my friend can shoot the pirate and if the pirate shoots him back, can I shoot the pirate without the Concord killing me? Attacking someone ALWAYS gives them aggro rights. Aggro rights against a specific player are not shared by a corp. Remote assistance (such as remote repair, shield transfer, ECCM projection, and etc) ALWAYS confers aggro rights to the person providing assistance. Quote: Now, almost the same question. If my friend and I are in different player corp but in the same gang and if a pirate takes my friend's can, my friend will get the kill rights. At that point, can I shoot the pirate without Concord killing me? At that point, I know my friend can shoot the pirate and if the pirate shoots him back, can I shoot the pirate without the Concord killing me? Fleets have no affect on aggro rights, with one exception. You cannot get aggro rights on a fleet member. And again, it is really important NOT to mix up the terms "aggro rights/aggression/aggression countdown/aggro" with "kill rights." They are very specifically very different things.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.02 23:47:00 - [26] Originally by: mkmin Attacking someone ALWAYS gives them aggro rights. Aggro rights against a specific player are not shared by a corp. Remote assistance (such as remote repair, shield transfer, ECCM projection, and etc) ALWAYS confers aggro rights to the person providing assistance. Thanks mkmin. I am confused by the scenario Attacking someone ALWAYS gives them aggro rights. Aggro rights against a specific player are not shared by a corp. When one is in high sec. how can this happen. If someone attacks and that person is aggro flagged, he will be shot by Concord immediately. Quote: Fleets have no affect on aggro rights, with one exception. You cannot get aggro rights on a fleet member. And again, it is really important NOT to mix up the terms "aggro rights/aggression/aggression countdown/aggro" with "kill rights." They are very specifically very different things. Sorry that I am confused by this, Fleets have no affect on aggro rights, with one exception. You cannot get aggro rights on a fleet member. Can I have an example please? Thank you. You should stand for CSM, I will vote for you. --------- The making of the new Jenny Spitfire
mkmin	Posted - 2011.02.02 23:55:00 - [27] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: mkmin Attacking someone ALWAYS gives them aggro rights. Aggro rights against a specific player are not shared by a corp. Remote assistance (such as remote repair, shield transfer, ECCM projection, and etc) ALWAYS confers aggro rights to the person providing assistance. Thanks mkmin. I am confused by the scenario Attacking someone ALWAYS gives them aggro rights. Aggro rights against a specific player are not shared by a corp. When one is in high sec. how can this happen. If someone attacks and that person is aggro flagged, he will be shot by Concord immediately. You get aggro rights on a can thief. You fire on can thief. He now has aggro rights on you. Quote: Quote: Fleets have no affect on aggro rights, with one exception. You cannot get aggro rights on a fleet member. And again, it is really important NOT to mix up the terms "aggro rights/aggression/aggression countdown/aggro" with "kill rights." They are very specifically very different things. Sorry that I am confused by this, Fleets have no affect on aggro rights, with one exception. You cannot get aggro rights on a fleet member. Can I have an example please? Thank you. You should stand for CSM, I will vote for you. You 'steal' from the container of a fleet member. Fleet member DOES NOT get aggro rights on you, even though they otherwise would.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.03 00:10:00 - [28] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 03/02/2011 00:10:57 Originally by: mkmin You get aggro rights on a can thief. You fire on can thief. He now has aggro rights on you. But am I right to say if we were in a corp and can thief steals from us, we can shoot the thief and the thief can shoot back at us? --------- The making of the new Jenny Spitfire
Dian'h Might Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated	Posted - 2011.02.03 05:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire But am I right to say if we were in a corp and can thief steals from us, we can shoot the thief and the thief can shoot back at us? Agro mechanics are as simple as: - Taking from a container = corp agro (think of NPC corps as a corporation of 1) - You shoot at someone = they can shoot you back - You assist someone with an agression timer (RR being the most common) = whoever could shoot them can now shoot you too. If you were to attack a can thief, only the can thief can shoot back, and he can only at the people who shot him (or assisted the people who shot him). - - - Dian'h Might - C&Ps resident "internet kleptomaniac"
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.03 22:57:00 - [30] Thanks Dian'h Might. It is very clear now. --------- The making of the new Jenny Spitfire
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.02.04 06:30:00 - [31] ...why do people even bother undocking in highsec with so many rules and regulations on who can you shoot and who can't... Claire, try a decent corporation, you might like it. If you won't, no harm done. Oh, and a corp that will keep bossing you around is in no way a decent one. Check the recruitment forum or one of the several recruitment channels in game. --- Originally by: Sporked EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.07 20:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Dian'h Might Originally by: Jenny Spitfire But am I right to say if we were in a corp and can thief steals from us, we can shoot the thief and the thief can shoot back at us? Agro mechanics are as simple as: - Taking from a container = corp agro (think of NPC corps as a corporation of 1) - You shoot at someone = they can shoot you back - You assist someone with an agression timer (RR being the most common) = whoever could shoot them can now shoot you too. If you were to attack a can thief, only the can thief can shoot back, and he can only at the people who shot him (or assisted the people who shot him). Hi. If someone takes my item from my container and I shoot them back, I know they can shoot me. If either of us are destroyed, can either of us pod the other? Or is destruction only valid for ships? Thank you. --------- The making of the new Jenny Spitfire
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.07 21:56:00 - [33] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire If someone takes my item from my container and I shoot them back, I know they can shoot me. If either of us are destroyed, can either of us pod the other? Or is destruction only valid for ships? Both the criminal and the back flagging will carry over to any ship until the timer hits 0.
mkmin	Posted - 2011.02.07 22:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Dian'h Might Originally by: Jenny Spitfire But am I right to say if we were in a corp and can thief steals from us, we can shoot the thief and the thief can shoot back at us? Agro mechanics are as simple as: - Taking from a container = corp agro (think of NPC corps as a corporation of 1) - You shoot at someone = they can shoot you back - You assist someone with an agression timer (RR being the most common) = whoever could shoot them can now shoot you too. If you were to attack a can thief, only the can thief can shoot back, and he can only at the people who shot him (or assisted the people who shot him). Hi. If someone takes my item from my container and I shoot them back, I know they can shoot me. If either of us are destroyed, can either of us pod the other? Or is destruction only valid for ships? Thank you. Podding in highsec is always illegal except for wardecs (and maybe outlaws, I can never remember, and it never seems to come into play.)
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.08 13:34:00 - [35] Thank you mkmin. I confirm podding an outlaw -10 in a pod, in high sec is fine. Crap bounties though. --------- The making of the new Jenny Spitfire
Kajan Tormen Minmatar Blood Money Inc. The Blood Money Cartel	Posted - 2011.02.09 15:31:00 - [36] it is legal to pod outlaws. I THINK it is legal to pod war-targets I THINK it is legal to pod corp-members (NPCs corps are not really corps) it is not legal to pod anyone else (i.e: you may NOT pod the canflipper/he may not pod you if you agrees him) I have spend less then a month in high sec, and the consequences of legal ruling are far less drastic out in low sec... ergo there are quite some fine details I am not 100% sure about
Cygnus Zhada Custodians of Athra	Posted - 2011.02.09 15:33:00 - [37] Originally by: Kajan Tormen it is legal to pod outlaws. I THINK it is legal to pod war-targets I THINK it is legal to pod corp-members (NPCs corps are not really corps) it is not legal to pod anyone else (i.e: you may NOT pod the canflipper/he may not pod you if you agrees him) I have spend less then a month in high sec, and the consequences of legal ruling are far less drastic out in low sec... ergo there are quite some fine details I am not 100% sure about Correct on your assumptions. Also, high sec is far better for piracy than low sec, income wise :) --- Stultorum infinitus est numerus.
Jack Mayhem	Posted - 2011.02.10 12:15:00 - [38] As a ninja, I am sure glad so many people have difficulties in understanding aggro mechanics :) To OP: never attack ninjas/can flippers! 99% of the time they will win against you regardless of ship you bring. Often they also have RR or Orca support nearby. The can full of ore is worth what, 1mil ISK? Also you can establish your own corp. It costs nothing.

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