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62B Fully Collateralized 6 Month Bond paying 3.5%

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Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.02.23 00:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Can we at least find out who Hegel Angel's main character is? At this stage, the only public information available is that an alt created on February 12th this year is asking for 62 bil cash and that the loan is effectively being taken out on cosmoray's creditworthiness. I'm sure that all concerned are trustworthy individuals, however this represents a nearly 100% increase in exposure for Cosmoray. Are there no steps that can be taken to increase the security of this offering? The degree of commitment shown to tangible investor security at this stage is nearly zero. Dear Mr liberty eternal Your butthurt snide comments are most welcomed in the usual scam threads, however this offering has collateral. Exposing the main character of a person with 65+Bil in collateral is a silly move, and especially since your only posting to flame the offering as usual, why should the person satisfy your needs? especially since there are already investors with money in the pot.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.23 00:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Misty McGinnity Dear Mr liberty eternal Your butthurt snide comments are most welcomed in the usual scam threads, however this offering has collateral. Exposing the main character of a person with 65+Bil in collateral is a silly move, and especially since your only posting to flame the offering as usual, why should the person satisfy your needs? especially since there are already investors with money in the pot. I don't think there is any need to escalate this into a confrontational thread - although kudos to you for trying to stir it up. If we can secure the identity of the OP, even to a trusted 3rd-party, then that would at least eliminate any possibility that this is an alt of the collateral holder. I don't think it's likely to be, but removing the possibility would be prudent given MD's past history.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2011.02.23 02:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Liberty Eternal If we can secure the identity of the OP, even to a trusted 3rd-party, then that would at least eliminate any possibility that this is an alt of the collateral holder. You can't. There is no way to tell if they use two accounts.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.02.23 02:37:00 - [34] Been informed by Hegel via IM that she is withdrawing the bond. Her corp managed to come up with 14B ISK to purchase initial BPO's and start production they need, and in light of recent BPO sales they will be selling a BPO to finance there other moves. No one should send money to Hegel. I have her full API, and will quickly check wallet transactions before returning collateral back when I get home. This should occur Saturday/Sunday depending on my tiredness.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.02.23 02:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Originally by: Misty McGinnity Dear Mr liberty eternal Your butthurt snide comments are most welcomed in the usual scam threads, however this offering has collateral. Exposing the main character of a person with 65+Bil in collateral is a silly move, and especially since your only posting to flame the offering as usual, why should the person satisfy your needs? especially since there are already investors with money in the pot. I don't think there is any need to escalate this into a confrontational thread - although kudos to you for trying to stir it up. If we can secure the identity of the OP, even to a trusted 3rd-party, then that would at least eliminate any possibility that this is an alt of the collateral holder. I don't think it's likely to be, but removing the possibility would be prudent given MD's past history. Didn't even see this. All the API will show that the character Hegel is the only character on an account. There was zero wallet transactions when I left. Pure ALT. Your call if you think it's my ALT, but I certainly have just passed up over 20B and easily more.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.23 19:41:00 - [36] Originally by: cosmoray Didn't even see this. All the API will show that the character Hegel is the only character on an account. There was zero wallet transactions when I left. Pure ALT. Your call if you think it's my ALT, but I certainly have just passed up over 20B and easily more. Fair enough - I don't think it's your alt. However, the security issue remains in theory, as the OP is an empty alt without history. So in regards to my earlier question, will you be prepared to release the identity of the OP?
Khanid Voltar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2011.02.23 19:50:00 - [37] Edited by: Khanid Voltar on 23/02/2011 19:51:12 Originally by: Liberty Eternal Fair enough - I don't think it's your alt. However, the security issue remains in theory, as the OP is an empty alt without history. So in regards to my earlier question, will you be prepared to release the identity of the OP? Originally by: cosmoray Been informed by Hegel via IM that she is withdrawing the bond. Her corp managed to come up with 14B ISK to purchase initial BPO's and start production they need, and in light of recent BPO sales they will be selling a BPO to finance there other moves. No one should send money to Hegel. I have her full API, and will quickly check wallet transactions before returning collateral back when I get home. This should occur Saturday/Sunday depending on my tiredness.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.23 19:55:00 - [38] Thanks Khanid, I'm aware that this offering has been withdrawn.
Khanid Voltar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2011.02.23 20:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Thanks Khanid, I'm aware that this offering has been withdrawn. NP, was just in case you missed it.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.02.23 20:34:00 - [40] I would release OP's details if there was a default. If Hegel wants to reveal her main it's her problem. The idea of this bond I assumed was to keep it private and also the alliance behind it. If the OP listed the name it would be very public. Academic anyway as bond has closed as they were not prepared to wait on additional security measures.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.23 23:07:00 - [41] Originally by: cosmoray I would release OP's details if there was a default. If Hegel wants to reveal her main it's her problem. The idea of this bond I assumed was to keep it private and also the alliance behind it. If the OP listed the name it would be very public. Academic anyway as bond has closed as they were not prepared to wait on additional security measures. Are you saying then that you will not release the identity of the OP? Would you consider releasing it to a third-party, as I suggested before? While I wish it were only an academic problem, it strikes me that the structure of this bond offering is neither as secure nor as transparent as it could have been and ought to have been. This structure of offering seems weak and potentially open to a great abuse.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2011.02.23 23:28:00 - [42] Edited by: Breaker77 on 23/02/2011 23:28:48 Originally by: Liberty Eternal Originally by: cosmoray I would release OP's details if there was a default. If Hegel wants to reveal her main it's her problem. The idea of this bond I assumed was to keep it private and also the alliance behind it. If the OP listed the name it would be very public. Academic anyway as bond has closed as they were not prepared to wait on additional security measures. Are you saying then that you will not release the identity of the OP? Would you consider releasing it to a third-party, as I suggested before? While I wish it were only an academic problem, it strikes me that the structure of this bond offering is neither as secure nor as transparent as it could have been and ought to have been. This structure of offering seems weak and potentially open to a great abuse. Why should someone have to reveal their main for a 100% collateralized offering? Thats like asking RAW, TS, or others to reveal the people that have outstanding loans. edit: yes, RAW has outstanding bonds to have ISK to loan out so it is the same thing pretty much.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.23 23:31:00 - [43] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 23/02/2011 23:33:28 Originally by: Breaker77 Why should someone have to reveal their main for a 100% collateralized offering? Thats like asking RAW, TS, or others to reveal the people that have outstanding loans. There is a distinction, because RAW lends his own money whereas this offering is a request for public funding. In this offering, the public is lending to an unknown alt with unconfirmed identity and no audit. The cashflow arrangements and the level of security are therefore very different despite the superficial similarity. Edit for your edit: Raw's cash-raising bonds are seperate to any individual loan and independently structured and scrutinised. The cash increase does not shoot up by 62 bil while tied to someone else's bond.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2011.02.23 23:36:00 - [44] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edit for your edit: Raw's cash-raising bonds are seperate to any individual loan and independently structured and scrutinised. Raw posts, give me ISK!!! People send it to him. Quote: The cash increase does not shoot up by 62 bil while tied to someone else's bond. True, but why 62 billion? Why not 5 billion or 1 billion fully collateralized? Even 1 billion ISK can be a large amount for some/most people. How do we know all those offerings are not alts?
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.02.23 23:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Breaker77 True, but why 62 billion? Why not 5 billion or 1 billion fully collateralized? Even 1 billion ISK can be a large amount for some/most people. How do we know all those offerings are not alts? This is my point exactly - this particular structure of offering is weak and open to abuse. Where an audit and the OP's identity are not available, the security is potentially non-existent.
Lauren Hellfury Full Pocket Aggro	Posted - 2011.02.24 00:05:00 - [46] Edited by: Lauren Hellfury on 24/02/2011 00:06:15 Originally by: Liberty Eternal Originally by: Breaker77 True, but why 62 billion? Why not 5 billion or 1 billion fully collateralized? Even 1 billion ISK can be a large amount for some/most people. How do we know all those offerings are not alts? This is my point exactly - this particular structure of offering is weak and open to abuse. Where an audit and the OP's identity are not available, the security is potentially non-existent. Taken from over here. Collateral In the context of project financing, additional security pledged to support the project financing. Assets pledged as security for a loan. In the event that a borrower defaults on the terms of a loan, the collateral may be sold, with the proceeds used to satisfy any remaining obligations. High-quality collateral reduces risk to the lender and results in a lower rate of interest on the loan. Assets with monetary value, such as stock, bonds, or real estate, which are used to guarantee a loan, are considered collateral. If the borrower defaults and fails to fulfill the terms of the loan agreement, the collateral, or some portion of it, may become the property of the lender. Security for a debt. So, explain to me the relevance of any internal security arrangements that affect the lenders ability to recover their investment with respect to a loan that is backed with 100% (or greater) collateral. The only issue is that of the trust in the selected third party which holds the collateral on behalf of the lendors.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2011.02.24 00:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Lauren Hellfury The only issue is that of the trust in the selected third party which holds the collateral on behalf of the lendors. This really.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.02.24 00:16:00 - [48] I would have been quite happy to give players shares & director roles in the holding corp. I did this previously for a 32B bond (Zigzag Industries) with VV, and when things went wrong we released the collateral for sale and paid investors back. The only issue for this bond was my absense (I am stuck in Brazil at present). The bond was always going to remain private, otherwise the OP would have posted with main. Due to failure with 100% funding, partial didn't really help so the bond was cancelled and other arrangements made.
Lauren Hellfury Full Pocket Aggro	Posted - 2011.02.24 00:22:00 - [49] Sorry Cosmo, I didn't intend to imply that there was (in my mind at least) any doubt over your honesty in this offering. My statement about the trust in the third party chosen was a general point rather than a specific one. I'd trust you with my isk even if not my sister.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:39:00 - [50] Case closed. One-nil for the blue team
Lauren Hellfury Full Pocket Aggro	Posted - 2011.03.04 00:17:00 - [51] Well, I guess I look a little foolish along about now
Amarr Citizen 155 Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Lauren Hellfury Well, I guess I look a little foolish along about now Well, at least you didn't trust him with your sister.

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