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qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 05:29:00 - [1] Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 05:31:31 fist off ccp will allow all types of topics in ED that belong in Features and ideas... but they let them stay there because they dont scare off noobs... but when people read about how bad hybrids have gotten they qwickly move these threds to features and ideas to go and die... so here are my 3 big fixes to rails/blasters and hybrid ammo... lets first look at rail guns... in comparsion with beams and arties: dps from highest to lowest = 1. beams 2. arties 3. rails alpha from highest to lowest = 1. arties 2. beams 3. rails rof from highest to lowest = 1. beams 2. rails 3. arties optimal from highest to lowest = 1. rails 2. beams 3. arties fall off from highest to lowest = 1. arties 2. rails. 3. beams tracking from highest to lowest = 1. beams 2. rails. 3. arties as we can see rails only come in 1st place when it comes to optimal range... it comes clear that the dps should be increased... imo both alpha and dps shold go up for rails... go look at the stats for a railthron vs artytempy vs tachionapox... the railthron only has 1900 alpha the apox does around 2600 alpha and the arty gets 6100 alpha... imo the rails need to do atleast simular alpha to beams wich means an increase to damage modifier of 30% which would give them 2450 alpha Rails should have the highest dps period... as it stands increasing thier alpha by 30% will increase thier dps... but not enough... we need to also increase rof and at the same time decrease activation cost to mitigate the effect... with a 30 % increase you now have the mega doing 445 dps... but if we increase the rof by 20% then the mega's dps goes up to an impresive 570 dps... as for blasters.... they should be close range arties... except instead of having the really long fall off they should have the best tracking to hit targets at point blank range... give them the highest tracking the highest alpha and the highest dps... (they already have the highest dps so the rof should be decreased to keep dps the same) give them the worst optimal range the worst rof and the second best falloff... now blasters will have a nice niche that will resurrect short range pvp... now for the ammo: they are hybrid guns their ammo should be hybrid too... so we come to this... the bonuses should be shared i.e. a reduction to activation cost and a tracking bonus should be included... but wait there is more... since hybrids do only two damage types... there should be more options for how much of each type is projected... so: close range ammo: antimater 80/20 split therm/kin -50% to optimal range no activation bonus or tracking bonus uranium 50/50 split therm/kin -45% to optimal range 5% reduction in cap 5% bonus to tracking plutonium 20/80 split therm/kin -40% to optimal range 10% reduction in cap 10 % bonus to tracking mid range ammo: thorium 80/20 split therm/kin 20% reduction in cap 20% bonus to tracking -25% to optimal range lead 50/50 split therm/kin 25% reduction in cap 15% bonus to tracking no change to optimal range iridium 20/80 split therm/kin 30% reduction in cap 10% bonus to tracking +25% to to optimal range long range ammo: tungsten 80/20 split therm/kin +40% to optimal range 35% reduction in cap 5% bonus to tracking iron 20/80 split therm/kin +60% to optimal range 40% reduction in cap no change to tracking do this and hybrids will be balanced with thier respective counterparts... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
Dreya Renthold	Posted - 2011.02.14 06:04:00 - [2] In before this gets moved and dies. I like all of the above ideas. <3 to CCP for all there work.
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.14 07:01:00 - [3] I'd say hybrid tracking is my biggest beef.
EnslaverOfMinmatar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.02.14 07:02:00 - [4] Hybrids are balanced out by drones. uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ Signature removed. Please submit a petition for further details. Navigator
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.02.14 07:12:00 - [5] Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Hybrids are balanced out by drones. Not every hybrid using ship is a droneboat and there are a few good droneboats which use other weapons, so no.
James Tiberius Kirk	Posted - 2011.02.14 07:58:00 - [6] Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Hybrids are balanced out by drones. Only viable drones for a rail ship are Sentries, and maybe Warrior II's for small stuff. Even if my Rokh was able to field a full rack of sentries, I still would be stuck using arties as rails don't even come close in anything. Rokhs filled with arties being a standard setup for fleet rokh should tell you something. IF, they allow any rokhs in the first place, as any mael with L3 BS is better than a L5 rokh. Hybrid =! Gallente
Siigari Kitawa Gallente Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.02.14 09:59:00 - [7] In response to the drone statement: Gallente used to be the race which favored drones the most, but that has now changed with Amarr using drones to considerably equal effect. I believe that rails should be given significant gain to damage to increase their role as hybrid weapons. Honestly, look at it this way. A railgun fires a slug which is magnetically propelled at extremely high velocities. A howitzer projectile is a large, heavy object which is fired via explosive discharge to propel the object to the target. In theory the railgun should do significantly more damage because it has more inertia upon impacting the target. A howitzer creates a larger area of effect, but often penetrates less than a railgun slug. This is all a bunch of theoretical technobabble, but the honest truth is railguns and projectiles have a lot more in common than CCP is making it out to be. I miss the Railthron. :( www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Siona Windweaver Placeholder Holdings	Posted - 2011.02.14 10:15:00 - [8] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 14/02/2011 10:18:03 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa In response to the drone statement: Gallente used to be the race which favored drones the most, but that has now changed with Amarr using drones to considerably equal effect. I believe that rails should be given significant gain to damage to increase their role as hybrid weapons. Honestly, look at it this way. A railgun fires a slug which is magnetically propelled at extremely high velocities. A howitzer projectile is a large, heavy object which is fired via explosive discharge to propel the object to the target. In theory the railgun should do significantly more damage because it has more inertia upon impacting the target. A howitzer creates a larger area of effect, but often penetrates less than a railgun slug. This is all a bunch of theoretical technobabble, but the honest truth is railguns and projectiles have a lot more in common than CCP is making it out to be. I miss the Railthron. :( You'd also have to account for the instant projectile discrepancy. There's no way an explosion propelled projectile would be as fast as a laser (light speed), or hybrid (which is the fastest projectile in real world). Reality has never been an issue with EVE though, we can transfer our consciousness across the universe instantly to another body, so **** reality tbh Hybrids needs improvement. There's no question about it. CCP will probably buff them in 2013 winter expansion if we whine hard enough until that time.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.14 10:18:00 - [9] So, OP is unhappy with X posts that has done on topic Y, and decides to deliberately post something at the wrong place, and clutter up forums even more? Great idea! - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Winters Chill Amarr Diesect	Posted - 2011.02.14 11:26:00 - [10] Nice to see someone whose done their homework. Looks like rails are a little underpowered tbh. And I can't fault your reasoning. I hope ccp looks at this soon, and I don't mean "look at rockets" soon.

Aderata Nonkin	Posted - 2011.02.14 12:00:00 - [11] It's sad to see a valid point being drowned in raves and rants about nonessential matters. I suggest OP go a course in anger management and learn how to write properly.
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.14 12:05:00 - [12] The real Problem is, that until about 80km on BS leven (lower with smaller ships ofc) the comparism is NOT Beams vs Rails but PULSE vs Rails!
Ger Tomard Caldari Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan	Posted - 2011.02.14 14:33:00 - [13] Wrong forum, troll somewhere else. You are a terrible person. [QUOTE]I think the next time you make one of these bad threads on this character, or any alt, you will be having a nice vacation to help work on making better threads. [/QUOTE] CCP finally acknowled
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.14 15:43:00 - [14] Hybrids do suck. Which is why I wish I could have reclaimed all my SP's spent on Gallente ships and T2 hybrids rather than the learning skills, have far more tied up in all that. To new players thinking of training HACs: The Deimos is an awesome ship... on PAPER. In reality you'll never get your target into your blaster falloff much less your optimal..
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2011.02.14 15:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Jack Gilligan reality you'll never get your target into your blaster falloff much less your optimal.. Really? I was pretty sure you can warp to the tackler. The only thing wrong with Gallente is that they aren't the hands down best anymore, and many people got used to that. In the time you've all been whining about it, you could have trained another race, like say, Minmatar, instead of expecting the game to nerf and buff things according to the one race you have trained. And before you say it, i have Gallente sub cap complete, and think they're fine. I also have Minmatar trained that far, but still fly certain Gallente ships because i prefer them. Sincerely, Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.14 16:15:00 - [16] Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Hybrids are balanced out by drones. You're wrong and a bad troll. You don't fly Gallente or Caldari ships by the sounds of it, or haven't even looked at them. Drone boats have drone bonuses or stats to reflect that they are drone boats i.e. larger drone bay. No drone boat has hybrid bonuses and vice versa. Some of the Caldari line up are hybrid ships but have the smallest drone bays possible for there ship class. Hybrids as a weapon system need a revision. Overall they are the worst system when actually used in the field. Its not just they are bad, in some circumstances they are utterly outclassed when they should be pretty good.
Skex Relbore Gallente Skexcorp	Posted - 2011.02.14 16:29:00 - [17] Originally by: knobber Jobbler Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Hybrids are balanced out by drones. You're wrong and a bad troll. You don't fly Gallente or Caldari ships by the sounds of it, or haven't even looked at them. Drone boats have drone bonuses or stats to reflect that they are drone boats i.e. larger drone bay. No drone boat has hybrid bonuses and vice versa. Some of the Caldari line up are hybrid ships but have the smallest drone bays possible for there ship class. Hybrids as a weapon system need a revision. Overall they are the worst system when actually used in the field. Its not just they are bad, in some circumstances they are utterly outclassed when they should be pretty good. Even though the person you are replying to is an idiot, You are wrong about no drone boat having weapon bonus's. In fact the only Gallente drone platform that doesn't have a weapon bonus is the Myrmidon. That said Hybrids do need some love. Personally I'd like to see an increase to tracking, A reduction in ammo loading time and some adjustments to the ammo choices themselves so there was a reason to load something other than anti-mater.

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.14 16:44:00 - [18] Moved from General Discussion to Ships & Modules. This is not because we want it 'out of General Discussion' but more so because the subject matter being discussed is better suited to this sub forum. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:25:00 - [19] CCP Navigator is obviously in the pay of the Amarr or Minmatar and is shoving this topic into this backwater subforum to hide it from the thousands in GD who need to be properly enlightened to the plight of us hybrid users. That said, rails really could use either an Alpha or DPS buff. Preferably both, but lets not go crazy here. ♥
Zyx Shewma	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:30:00 - [20] Another point about the, 'anyone that uses hybrids should be using drones too' argument... The time it takes to train up all the drone stuff, along with the gun stuff, puts the other factions at yet another advantage.

Drexit	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:33:00 - [21] My understanding was that comparison between tachs anything else was a bad comparison. shouldnt you be comparing to mega beams?
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:13:00 - [22] Originally by: qwijJibow lets first look at rail guns... in comparsion with beams and arties: dps from highest to lowest = 1. beams 2. arties 3. rails false rails have better dps than arty
Mithrasith	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:29:00 - [23] Originally by: qwijJibow Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 05:31:31 Rails should have the highest dps period... as it stands increasing thier alpha by 30% will increase thier dps... but not enough... we need to also increase rof and at the same time decrease activation cost to mitigate the effect... with a 30 % increase you now have the mega doing 445 dps... but if we increase the rof by 20% then the mega's dps goes up to an impresive 570 dps... Important section bolded. Why? Why should Rails have the highest DPS period? This is a statement that you make without anything supporting it (and just for the record, I have around 10 mil invested in gunnery, most of it in hybrids - yes I think hybrids suck atm, but you cant make a blanket statement like that with no reasoning)
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Koniss Originally by: qwijJibow lets first look at rail guns... in comparsion with beams and arties: dps from highest to lowest = 1. beams 2. arties 3. rails false rails have better dps than arty HA! ok lets pull up the old eft... i suggest you do the same... now open up the tier 2 bs's put on a full rack of long range guns put on long range tech II ammo and put on 3 damage mods... oh and we dont include drones because at long range drone are not used... 1. apox does 400 dps 2. tempy does 370 dps 3. mega does 350 dps how again does the tempy do less damage? oh and to CCP Nav! LMAO thanks p moving it to ships and fittings did not see that one comming hehehehe... oh and i already can fly every race and stuff... but i like the idea of Gallente... i miss them and would like to fly them again one day... and i am not talking about 1-2 ships that are not completely broken Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:58:00 - [25] Originally by: Mithrasith Originally by: qwijJibow Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 05:31:31 Rails should have the highest dps period... as it stands increasing thier alpha by 30% will increase thier dps... but not enough... we need to also increase rof and at the same time decrease activation cost to mitigate the effect... with a 30 % increase you now have the mega doing 445 dps... but if we increase the rof by 20% then the mega's dps goes up to an impresive 570 dps... Important section bolded. Why? Why should Rails have the highest DPS period? This is a statement that you make without anything supporting it (and just for the record, I have around 10 mil invested in gunnery, most of it in hybrids - yes I think hybrids suck atm, but you cant make a blanket statement like that with no reasoning) imo the reason why rails should have hier dps then arties and beams is pretty simple... 1. arties have the best alpha dont use cap and can pick which damage type they use. 2. beams as it stands have the best dps best tracking does not use ammo uses cap and has a respectable alpha... 3. rails right now have all the negative bonuses of being a hybrid weapon but dont have one postive... they use cap they use ammo they take 10 seconds to reload... they have horrible dps they have horrible alpha... giving them the best dps would balance them out to all thier negative effects... arties achive thier damage via alpha. beams achieve thier damage via awesome tracking and decent dps/alpha rails should achieve thier damage via awesome dps and decent alpha... remember that arties and rails tracking are not that far apart... so rails will still have more potential for hier dps but that still requires them to actually hit the target... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:14:00 - [26] Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 19:15:20 Originally by: Drexit My understanding was that comparison between tachs anything else was a bad comparison. shouldnt you be comparing to mega beams? ok for sh@ts and giggles lets move from large weapons to medium... lets compare a raildeimos to a beamzelot to a artymunin... hell we will even through in a lol eagle... same scenario as last... largest long range guns with 3 damage mods and long range ammo zealot = 290 dps 719 alpha 81 optimal range 10 falloff 0.01031 tracking munin = 232 dps 1912 alpha 81 optimal range 22 falloff 0.00945 tracking deimos = 235 dps (wow a ***ping 3 more then the munin) 824 alpha (better then the zealot) 65 optimal range 23 falloff 0.00719 tracking... lol eagle = 188 dps 659 alpha 146 optimal range (pretty nice tbh) 15 falloff 0.00719 tracking... as we can see the only saving grace for rails is either stupid long range that is chipping paint off the side of a barn... or somewhat ok alpha and thats only after a 50% boost to damage! its clear that 1... hybrids need a boost... and that 2. caldari gun boats bonuses are silly... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:26:00 - [27] Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Koniss Originally by: qwijJibow lets first look at rail guns... in comparsion with beams and arties: dps from highest to lowest = 1. beams 2. arties 3. rails false rails have better dps than arty HA! ok lets pull up the old eft... i suggest you do the same... now open up the tier 2 bs's put on a full rack of long range guns put on long range tech II ammo and put on 3 damage mods... oh and we dont include drones because at long range drone are not used... 1. apox does 400 dps 2. tempy does 370 dps 3. mega does 350 dps how again does the tempy do less damage? oh and to CCP Nav! LMAO thanks p moving it to ships and fittings did not see that one comming hehehehe... oh and i already can fly every race and stuff... but i like the idea of Gallente... i miss them and would like to fly them again one day... and i am not talking about 1-2 ships that are not completely broken the ships have different bonus no wonder the tempest with 2 damage bonus do more damage than a ship with 1 single damage bonus. point stay rail per se do more dps than arty. also who use sniper BS anymore? just use blaster
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.14 19:33:00 - [28] Originally by: qwijJibow Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 19:25:21 Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 19:15:20 Originally by: Drexit My understanding was that comparison between tachs anything else was a bad comparison. shouldnt you be comparing to mega beams? ok for sh@ts and giggles lets move from large weapons to medium... lets compare a raildeimos to a beamzelot to a artymunin... hell we will even through in a lol eagle... same scenario as last... largest long range guns with 3 damage mods and long range ammo zealot = 290 dps 719 alpha 81 optimal range 10 falloff 0.01031 tracking munin = 232 dps 1912 alpha 81 optimal range 22 falloff 0.00945 tracking deimos = 235 dps (wow a w()pping 3 more then the munin) 824 alpha (better then the zealot) 65 optimal range 23 falloff 0.00719 tracking... lol eagle = 188 dps 659 alpha 146 optimal range (pretty nice tbh) 15 falloff 0.00719 tracking... as we can see the only saving grace for rails is either stupid long range that is chipping paint off the side of a barn... or somewhat ok alpha and thats only after a 50% boost to damage! its clear that 1... hybrids need a boost... and that 2. caldari gun boats bonuses are silly... comparing HAC meant to snipe and close range HAC (like the deimos) is also a bad thing.
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:07:00 - [29] Originally by: Koniss the ships have different bonus no wonder the tempest with 2 damage bonus do more damage than a ship with 1 single damage bonus. point stay rail per se do more dps than arty. also who use sniper BS anymore? just use blaster sigh... ok lets look at the mael vrs abby, vrs hype... a rail might do more dps then an arty on a ship that does not get any bonuses to guns... Just use blasters?!?!?!?! atm i put autos on my ships instead of blasters... but just for Sh@ts lets look at these ships... hell i will even chuck in a rokh just to be nice... and switch over to close range ammo... 1. abbadon tachion close: 753 dps 5180 alpha 33 optiaml 25 falloff 0.0174 tracking 2. abbadon mega pulse with scorch: 730 dps 3165 alpha 45 optimal 10 falloff 0.03164 tracking 3. mael arty close: 593 dps 9828 alpha 30 optimal 44 falloff 0.01125 tracking 4. mael auto with barrage: 700 dps 2275 alpha 6 optimal 36 falloff 0.0405 tracking 5. hype rail close: 601 dps (you are correct a whole 8 more dps makes up for it right?) 3165 alpha 36 optimal 30 falloff 0.01203 tracking 6. hype blaster null: 852 dps 3693 alpha 11 optimal 16 falloff 0.04059 (i am sure that the 0.00009 extra tracking and 122 dps makes up for the complete lack of optimal/falloff right?) 7. rokh rail close: 481 dps 2532 alpha 54 optimal 30 falloff 0.01203 tracking 8. rokh blaster null: 681 dps 2954 alpha 17 optimal 16 falloff 0.04059 tracking now lets see a myrm with one rail one beam and one arty and compare... one rail no mag stabs... does 27 dps 125 alpha one beam no heat sinks... does 32 dps 137 alpha one arty no gyros... does 25 dps 363 alpha... so you are correct a rail does a impressive 2 more dps wich means around 7.5% more dps then arties but does that make up for the 65% bonus that beams get over rails? or how about the fact that beams do 16% more dps and 9% more alpha then rails... does the small range bonus that rails get really make up for all the shortcommings that rails suffer from? imo no... not even close... but really when we compare guns we have to look not just at the weapons themselves but also the ships we are placing them on... to get a fair comparison... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:25:00 - [30] Edited by: Koniss on 14/02/2011 20:26:51 Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Koniss the ships have different bonus no wonder the tempest with 2 damage bonus do more damage than a ship with 1 single damage bonus. point stay rail per se do more dps than arty. also who use sniper BS anymore? just use blaster sigh... ok lets look at the mael vrs abby, vrs hype... a rail might do more dps then an arty on a ship that does not get any bonuses to guns... Just use blasters?!?!?!?! atm i put autos on my ships instead of blasters... but just for Sh@ts lets look at these ships... hell i will even chuck in a rokh just to be nice... and switch over to close range ammo... 1. abbadon tachion close: 753 dps 5180 alpha 33 optiaml 25 falloff 0.0174 tracking 2. abbadon mega pulse with scorch: 730 dps 3165 alpha 45 optimal 10 falloff 0.03164 tracking 3. mael arty close: 593 dps 9828 alpha 30 optimal 44 falloff 0.01125 tracking 4. mael auto with barrage: 700 dps 2275 alpha 6 optimal 36 falloff 0.0405 tracking 5. hype rail close: 601 dps (you are correct a whole 8 more dps makes up for it right?) 3165 alpha 36 optimal 30 falloff 0.01203 tracking 6. hype blaster null: 852 dps 3693 alpha 11 optimal 16 falloff 0.04059 (i am sure that the 0.00009 extra tracking and 122 dps makes up for the complete lack of optimal/falloff right?) 7. rokh rail close: 481 dps 2532 alpha 54 optimal 30 falloff 0.01203 tracking 8. rokh blaster null: 681 dps 2954 alpha 17 optimal 16 falloff 0.04059 tracking now lets see a myrm with one rail one beam and one arty and compare... one rail no mag stabs... does 27 dps 125 alpha one beam no heat sinks... does 32 dps 137 alpha one arty no gyros... does 25 dps 363 alpha... so you are correct a rail does a impressive 2 more dps wich means around 7.5% more dps then arties but does that make up for the 65% bonus that beams get over rails? or how about the fact that beams do 16% more dps and 9% more alpha then rails... does the small range bonus that rails get really make up for all the shortcommings that rails suffer from? imo no... not even close... but really when we compare guns we have to look not just at the weapons themselves but also the ships we are placing them on... to get a fair comparison... again you are comparing tachs to 425 rails and that is wrong. still rails do more dps than arty even if the ship hull have a weaker bonus rof vs dmg(and that is more of a ship problen rather than the weapon). if you fit AC on ship with damage bonus for hybrid no wonder you have problem at this game cause you are just doing it wrong since you probably dont realize that 152dps (852-700 =/= 122) over the 700 of the mael its a good 20% more damage and the blaster hype outdamage the AC meal up to 20km wich is plenty of range for a blaster boat if anything its wrong is that scorch is terribly OP compared to both AC and blasters

qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Koniss comparing HAC meant to snipe and close range HAC (like the deimos) is also a bad thing. so you would prefer i look at the ishtar instead? it only has 3 gun slots... but if fit like the discription one would use sentries at long range... want me also to bring up that data? and then comment on the short commings of drones? you cant even talk about alpha when it comes to drones cuss they dont fire at the same time... but hell lets try this one out... one bouncer II with max skills on a ishtar does 50*6.3= 315 alpha now lets add 4 more sentries and you get an impresive 1575 alpha and about 394 dps lets just say for some reason you want to put on 250's with 3 mag stabs... that gives you 396 alpha and 113 dps... now lets add it all together and you get 1971 aplha and a total of 506 dps... dont get me wrong this looks all nice on paper... but remember the sentries dont move... so you have to stay in one position the entire time you are shooting... when you are in a fleet you are constantly moving around and having to align so using sentries is not as usefull as one might think... When we compare the turret based hacs it becomes clear how bad hybrids really are... even on paper they dont seem to be that great... they are even worse in in game testing... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:33:00 - [32] Originally by: Koniss again you are comparing tachs to 425 rails and that is wrong. still rails do more dps than arty even if the ship hull have a weaker bonus rof vs dmg(and that is more of a ship problen rather than the weapon). if you fit AC on ship with damage bonus for hybrid no wonder you have problem at this game cause you are just doing it wrong since you probably dont realize that 152dps (852-700 =/= 122) over the 700 of the mael its a good 20% more damage and the blaster hype outdamage the AC meal up to 20km wich is plenty of range for a blaster boat if anything its wrong is that scorch is terribly OP compared to both AC and blasters why is comparing the largest of each weapon type wrong? the 20% extra damage that the hype gets over the mael does not make up for the fact that the closer you get the more tracking you need and that the hype is restricted to only two damage types... something the mael is not... try doing the calculations using tracking mods and see how much better the meal is then the hype... its just plain silly... though we do agree on one point... scorch is way op.... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:37:00 - [33] Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Koniss comparing HAC meant to snipe and close range HAC (like the deimos) is also a bad thing. so you would prefer i look at the ishtar instead? it only has 3 gun slots... but if fit like the discription one would use sentries at long range... want me also to bring up that data? and then comment on the short commings of drones? you cant even talk about alpha when it comes to drones cuss they dont fire at the same time... but hell lets try this one out... one bouncer II with max skills on a ishtar does 50*6.3= 315 alpha now lets add 4 more sentries and you get an impresive 1575 alpha and about 394 dps lets just say for some reason you want to put on 250's with 3 mag stabs... that gives you 396 alpha and 113 dps... now lets add it all together and you get 1971 aplha and a total of 506 dps... dont get me wrong this looks all nice on paper... but remember the sentries dont move... so you have to stay in one position the entire time you are shooting... when you are in a fleet you are constantly moving around and having to align so using sentries is not as usefull as one might think... When we compare the turret based hacs it becomes clear how bad hybrids really are... even on paper they dont seem to be that great... they are even worse in in game testing... the sniper ishtar have only 1 downside that might lose its drones. but it totally smashes the crap out of the zealot in the dps department. if you compare turrets HAC what comes out its not that hybrid are bad but the fact there isn a ship designed to fight @100km with hybrids because the eagle its meant for extra long range sniping (not that ueful) and gallente dont have a turret sniping HAC
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:48:00 - [34] Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 20:50:26 Originally by: Koniss the sniper ishtar have only 1 downside that might lose its drones. but it totally smashes the crap out of the zealot in the dps department. if you compare turrets HAC what comes out its not that hybrid are bad but the fact there isn a ship designed to fight @100km with hybrids because the eagle its meant for extra long range sniping (not that ueful) and gallente dont have a turret sniping HAC no when you compare hacs you find out that yes hybrids are bad and that thier ships are also bad... back in the day hybrids were great because lazos blew and projectiles were even worse... but then the boosting button got hit way to many times and now hybrids are total crap! back in the day you has nos's that were awesome... blasters mixed with 90% webbers were awesome... something that ccp did not take into account when it changed scram phisics is that it turns off the mwd which reduces the sig radius of the ships which makes the tracking alot more important... which is why blasters need a major tracking boost to compistate... back in 2006-2007 all you saw were railthrons... now you see non... but thats a mix between scanning with probes is op and rails being crap (bad alhpa bad dps bad tracking, uses cap, uses ammo, has 10 sec reload time, only small amount of ammo per clip)... personally i think hybrids need to be boosted... then we can look at the short commings of thier ships and boost them where needed... like for the eagle remove one of the 10% to optimal range and replace it with either 5% to damange or 5% to rof.... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:48:00 - [35] Originally by: qwijJibow Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 19:25:21 Edited by: qwijJibow on 14/02/2011 19:15:20 Originally by: Drexit My understanding was that comparison between tachs anything else was a bad comparison. shouldnt you be comparing to mega beams? ok for sh@ts and giggles lets move from large weapons to medium... lets compare a raildeimos to a beamzelot to a artymunin... hell we will even through in a lol eagle... same scenario as last... largest long range guns with 3 damage mods and long range ammo zealot = 290 dps 719 alpha 81 optimal range 10 falloff 0.01031 tracking munin = 232 dps 1912 alpha 81 optimal range 22 falloff 0.00945 tracking "deimos = 235 dps THIS, U LIE! U THINK WE CAN'T EFT WARRIOR STATS TOO?
Koniss	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:51:00 - [36] Edited by: Koniss on 14/02/2011 20:58:21 Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Koniss again you are comparing tachs to 425 rails and that is wrong. still rails do more dps than arty even if the ship hull have a weaker bonus rof vs dmg(and that is more of a ship problen rather than the weapon). if you fit AC on ship with damage bonus for hybrid no wonder you have problem at this game cause you are just doing it wrong since you probably dont realize that 152dps (852-700 =/= 122) over the 700 of the mael its a good 20% more damage and the blaster hype outdamage the AC meal up to 20km wich is plenty of range for a blaster boat if anything its wrong is that scorch is terribly OP compared to both AC and blasters why is comparing the largest of each weapon type wrong? the 20% extra damage that the hype gets over the mael does not make up for the fact that the closer you get the more tracking you need and that the hype is restricted to only two damage types... something the mael is not... try doing the calculations using tracking mods and see how much better the meal is then the hype... its just plain silly... though we do agree on one point... scorch is way op.... tachyon are a oversized weapon (see fittings) so the dont compare fairly to standard weapons, they are a niche only amarr have and maybe you wanna whine about that. the fact that blaster have shorter range where tracking matters more dosent change the things that in the range of blaster nothing can outdamage them, because if blaster have tracking problem in the 0-20km the other weapons system will have even more problems you speaking about null an barrage then you come out with damage selection? (something is wrong here) hint: blaster benefit from TE/TC as well as ACS (shield hype) edit: as i said in other post im not again a hybrid boost but what you are asking in your first post is totally nosense. blasters could use a dps boost but only if they get also a range reduction because they already outdamage AC to ranges that meake them well worth the choice. rails yes they could use a dps boost but no big things.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Koniss Edited by: Koniss on 14/02/2011 20:26:51 Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Koniss the ships have different bonus no wonder the tempest with 2 damage bonus do more damage than a ship with 1 single damage bonus. point stay rail per se do more dps than arty. also who use sniper BS anymore? just use blaster sigh... ok lets look at the mael vrs abby, vrs hype... a rail might do more dps then an arty on a ship that does not get any bonuses to guns... Just use blasters?!?!?!?! atm i put autos on my ships instead of blasters... but just for Sh@ts lets look at these ships... hell i will even chuck in a rokh just to be nice... and switch over to close range ammo... 1. abbadon tachion close: 753 dps 5180 alpha 33 optiaml 25 falloff 0.0174 tracking 2. abbadon mega pulse with scorch: 730 dps 3165 alpha 45 optimal 10 falloff 0.03164 tracking 3. mael arty close: 593 dps 9828 alpha 30 optimal 44 falloff 0.01125 tracking 4. mael auto with barrage: 700 dps 2275 alpha 6 optimal 36 falloff 0.0405 tracking 5. hype rail close: 601 dps (you are correct a whole 8 more dps makes up for it right?) 3165 alpha 36 optimal 30 falloff 0.01203 tracking 6. hype blaster null: 852 dps 3693 alpha 11 optimal 16 falloff 0.04059 (i am sure that the 0.00009 extra tracking and 122 dps makes up for the complete lack of optimal/falloff right?) 7. rokh rail close: 481 dps 2532 alpha 54 optimal 30 falloff 0.01203 tracking 8. rokh blaster null: 681 dps 2954 alpha 17 optimal 16 falloff 0.04059 tracking now lets see a myrm with one rail one beam and one arty and compare... one rail no mag stabs... does 27 dps 125 alpha one beam no heat sinks... does 32 dps 137 alpha one arty no gyros... does 25 dps 363 alpha... so you are correct a rail does a impressive 2 more dps wich means around 7.5% more dps then arties but does that make up for the 65% bonus that beams get over rails? or how about the fact that beams do 16% more dps and 9% more alpha then rails... does the small range bonus that rails get really make up for all the shortcommings that rails suffer from? imo no... not even close... but really when we compare guns we have to look not just at the weapons themselves but also the ships we are placing them on... to get a fair comparison... again you are comparing tachs to 425 rails and that is wrong. still rails do more dps than arty even if the ship hull have a weaker bonus rof vs dmg(and that is more of a ship problen rather than the weapon). if you fit AC on ship with damage bonus for hybrid no wonder you have problem at this game cause you are just doing it wrong since you probably dont realize that 152dps (852-700 =/= 122) over the 700 of the mael its a good 20% more damage and the blaster hype outdamage the AC meal up to 20km wich is plenty of range for a blaster boat if anything its wrong is that scorch is terribly OP compared to both AC and blasters They consume more cap than any other weapon. You think of that?
DustiX	Posted - 2011.02.14 21:03:00 - [38] Originally by: freshspree They consume more cap than any other weapon. You think of that? cap boosters?
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 21:10:00 - [39] Originally by: Koniss Originally by: qwijJibow Originally by: Koniss again you are comparing tachs to 425 rails and that is wrong. still rails do more dps than arty even if the ship hull have a weaker bonus rof vs dmg(and that is more of a ship problen rather than the weapon). if you fit AC on ship with damage bonus for hybrid no wonder you have problem at this game cause you are just doing it wrong since you probably dont realize that 152dps (852-700 =/= 122) over the 700 of the mael its a good 20% more damage and the blaster hype outdamage the AC meal up to 20km wich is plenty of range for a blaster boat if anything its wrong is that scorch is terribly OP compared to both AC and blasters why is comparing the largest of each weapon type wrong? the 20% extra damage that the hype gets over the mael does not make up for the fact that the closer you get the more tracking you need and that the hype is restricted to only two damage types... something the mael is not... try doing the calculations using tracking mods and see how much better the meal is then the hype... its just plain silly... though we do agree on one point... scorch is way op.... tachyon are a oversized weapon (see fittings) so the dont compare fairly to standard weapons, they are a niche only amarr have and maybe you wanna whine about that. the fact that blaster have shorter range where tracking matters more dosent change the things that in the range of blaster nothing can outdamage them, because if blaster have tracking problem in the 0-20km the other weapons system will have even more problems you speaking about null an barrage then you come out with damage selection? (something is wrong here) hint: blaster benefit from TE/TC as well as ACS (shield hype) so because tachions have a crazy fittings they are not in the same level as 425's and 1400's? 1400's still kill them in alpha.... so not tha convincing of an argument.... infact you prove that rails suck in comparion the falloff boost that you get from autos when using a te is much better then you get when using blasters... i was using the tech II ammo to try to get blasters out as far as possible and even then they are still rather close range... but even still a mael can switch its ammo to any damage type it wants... a hype cant do that... Ever tried getting close in a armor tanked hype with a mwd and full rack of nuetrons? the ship is slow as hell is manouvers like a whale... pretty much the mael will have the ability to keep range and will kill the hype... if blasters are supposed to perform awesome at 20km and less then increase thier tracking to a level that will allow them to opertate at this range... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...
qwijJibow Caldari The Unpodable Supermen	Posted - 2011.02.14 21:15:00 - [40] Originally by: DustiX Originally by: freshspree They consume more cap than any other weapon. You think of that? cap boosters? actually only on the abbadon does lazors take more cap... on the geddon and apox lazors ruffly use the same cap as hybrids... but yeah cap boosters help... Remember you hell is someone elses heaven...

EnslaverOfMinmatar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.02.14 22:13:00 - [41] Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: knobber Jobbler Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar Hybrids are balanced out by drones. You're wrong and a bad troll. You don't fly Gallente or Caldari ships by the sounds of it, or haven't even looked at them. Drone boats have drone bonuses or stats to reflect that they are drone boats i.e. larger drone bay. No drone boat has hybrid bonuses and vice versa. Some of the Caldari line up are hybrid ships but have the smallest drone bays possible for there ship class. Hybrids as a weapon system need a revision. Overall they are the worst system when actually used in the field. Its not just they are bad, in some circumstances they are utterly outclassed when they should be pretty good. Even though the person you are replying to is an idiot, You are wrong about no drone boat having weapon bonus's. In fact the only Gallente drone platform that doesn't have a weapon bonus is the Myrmidon. That said Hybrids do need some love. Personally I'd like to see an increase to tracking, A reduction in ammo loading time and some adjustments to the ammo choices themselves so there was a reason to load something other than anti-mater. Same to you uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ Signature removed. Please submit a petition for further details. Navigator
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.14 22:37:00 - [42] Same to you Oh and if someone is going to 'fix' Caldari hybrid ships, don't forget to remove shield resistances so that they won't accidentally get a 3rd/5th bonus ERR... what planet did you come from? It's the optimal range bonus to hybrids that need to be changed for a dmg bonus as far as caldari ships are concerned. The shield resist bonus is just as good as a repair amount bonus.
EnslaverOfMinmatar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.02.15 01:18:00 - [43] Originally by: freshspree Same to you Oh and if someone is going to 'fix' Caldari hybrid ships, don't forget to remove shield resistances so that they won't accidentally get a 3rd/5th bonus ERR... what planet did you come from? It's the optimal range bonus to hybrids that need to be changed for a dmg bonus as far as caldari ships are concerned. The shield resist bonus is just as good as a repair amount bonus. Resits > repair armor/shield bonus in most cases. In other cases they're equal. uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ Signature removed. Please submit a petition for further details. Navigator
Otto Schultzky Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.15 01:21:00 - [44] The problem is that straight buff to hybrid system makes it to much like other turret weapon systems. The only 2 hybrid turrets that are completely useless in my opinion are the dual 150mm and dual 250mm variants, for obvious reasons. Every thing else is juts weak and sub-standard from range/damage standpoint The more sensible option was proposed a wile back, at Assembly Hall topic by one of the CSM members. By giving more variety to hybrid ammo instead of being a ammo based derivative of a laser crystals. Basics of the proposal were giving a Rate of Fire and changing cap usage modifier of all hybrid ammo that way the DPS and Alpha damage could be varied depending on ammo type. Along with size reduction of charges, splitting ammo in 3 range groups and other tweaks to hybrid weapons. The range split would balance Gallente/Caldari(damage/range) bonus. Problem is that by monkeying with hybrids would affect a rather large number of ships and that might cause other people to cry foul too. I am not expecting miracles from ___.
Altaica Amur Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2011.02.15 06:15:00 - [45] Quote: again you are comparing tachs to 425 rails and that is wrong. still rails do more dps than arty even if the ship hull have a weaker bonus rof vs dmg(and that is more of a ship problen rather than the weapon). if you fit AC on ship with damage bonus for hybrid no wonder you have problem at this game cause you are just doing it wrong since you probably dont realize that 152dps (852-700 =/= 122) over the 700 of the mael its a good 20% more damage and the blaster hype outdamage the AC meal up to 20km wich is plenty of range for a blaster boat if anything its wrong is that scorch is terribly OP compared to both AC and blasters 1. Comparing things to Tachs isn't wrong, they're in the game, they can be fit, they can be kept capped up for a reasonable amoutn of time, it's difficult but not impossible and often easily worth it for the damage and range advantage they confer, if it's so unfair to compare anything to tachs then perhaps they should be removed from the game, until then people can and will make the comparison and be right in doing so. 2. How nice of you to act like a 1.3% advantage in damage makes up for 310% advantage arty has in alpha these do not make up for one and other as one is a signifigant and exploitable advantage which you can configure a fleet doctrine around ( see alphafleet ) the other is a marginal at best advantage that's outdone by a 3rd weapon's platform anyways ( lasers ). 3. Blasters, nice up close but you have to get there, we all know this and we all know the issues with getting primarily armor tanked ships up that close. While you're correct in asserting a 20% damage advantage over the auto-mael the auto-mael pays little for this ( no cap ) and gets 50% more range out of it's weapon. This says nothing of issues with blasters against laser boats which will most often be able to do enough damage to the blaster boat that by the time the blasters gain the damage advantage the fight is already decided against them. Quote: the sniper ishtar have only 1 downside that might lose its drones. but it totally smashes the crap out of the zealot in the dps department. if you compare turrets HAC what comes out its not that hybrid are bad but the fact there isn a ship designed to fight @100km with hybrids because the eagle its meant for extra long range sniping (not that ueful) and gallente dont have a turret sniping HAC While what you say is true that the hacs don't speak particularily well to issues with rails due to the horrible mismatch of ships designed for rails vs the munin and zealot rails do remain quite horrible. For HACs though the fact that the eagle isn't competitive amount sniper-hacs speaks volumes about issues with t2 ammo leaving massive unfilled voids between their close range types and long range types that leave the entire caldari railship line sucking a lot of wind. Quote: tachyon are a oversized weapon (see fittings) so the dont compare fairly to standard weapons, they are a niche only amarr have and maybe you wanna whine about that. the fact that blaster have shorter range where tracking matters more dosent change the things that in the range of blaster nothing can outdamage them, because if blaster have tracking problem in the 0-20km the other weapons system will have even more problems you speaking about null an barrage then you come out with damage selection? (something is wrong here) hint: blaster benefit from TE/TC as well as ACS (shield hype) Then join us in supporting a proposal to introduce new oversized rails and arty to the game that do more dps and more alpha but have rough fittings. If not stop whining that people are comparing their best weapon system to your best, as bad as tachs are to fit plenty of people still manage.


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