Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
![VoiceInTheDesert VoiceInTheDesert](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1124292045/portrait?size=64)
VoiceInTheDesert
Abyssal Heavy Industries Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:43:00 -
[1]
I understand that gates are instantaneous, so they have an advantage over warp travel. But doing the math (and I could be wrong), a ship warping at 3.0 AU/s is doing nearly 1500 times the speed of light. Cov ops ships can warp at nearly 6500 times the speed of light.
I understand why this would be problematic for traveling between systems in game. Even "close" stars would take days to travel to (about 2.5 days for a star 10 LY away). So naturally, there's a reason we don't use warp to travel between stars in game and it's understandable that the mechanic to do so isn't in place.
But in the lore, this creates a problem for me. Why is the Milk Way considered impossible to reach? Is it because people in New Eden don't know where it is? Warp tech has existed in New Eden for thousands of years at the point in the lore that we're playing, so I don't see why no one even tried an intergalactic journey. Tedious? Yes. But the technology exists for long voyages. If my math is correct, a ship with Cov Ops warp speed could cross a galaxy the size of the Milky Way from end to end in 15 years. A journey from the Milky Way to Andromeda would take about 330 years.
But even if you disregard the possibility of New Eden reaching out to the Milk Way, if the tech in the Milky Way is light years ahead of the tech in New Eden (as it is supposed to be from the lore), why did no one think "we should send a ship or two and see what happened." They had literally tens of thousands of years to reach out to New Eden and failed to do so. If the tech on Earth is, let's say 10 times more advanced than that of New Eden, that would make trips that much faster. They could do an intergalactic journey in less than 50 years, with what I believe is a very modest assumption of technical superiority.
So what gives? Is it just that each galaxy's residents simply don't know which way to point their ships or is there something from the lore I'm missing? Or am I really bad at math?
|
![Skex Relbore Skex Relbore](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1574005753/portrait?size=64)
Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:48:00 -
[2]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Is it because people in New Eden don't know where it is?
Yes.
Or hell even when it is for that matter if it's even in the same universe (actually based on the funky physics it probably isn't)
The EVE gate was built on a natural worm hole, they had no idea where the other end went.
|
![Erin Xaelan Erin Xaelan](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1638573018/portrait?size=64)
Erin Xaelan
Caldari Protagonists Of Doom
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:49:00 -
[3]
Well, from a technical standpoint...that's an entire new galaxy CCP would have to create.
Then again, how do we know that's not coming? Maybe Earthians just recently discovered where New Eden is have just now finished calculating all the time-delayed movement and what not to arrive where New Eden WOULD be after however many thousands of years it may take to actually get there.
Perhaps they're on their way?
|
![Flying Swan Flying Swan](https://images.evetech.net/characters/618942256/portrait?size=64)
Flying Swan
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:50:00 -
[4]
You're not bad at maths, just failing to grasp the concept of "Do not try to rationalise a computer game according to real life".
|
![Kylira Ulfrinn Kylira Ulfrinn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1565507703/portrait?size=64)
Kylira Ulfrinn
Blackstaff Logistics
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kylira Ulfrinn on 17/02/2011 20:52:20 I don't see any reason to assume that anyone in New Eden knows the location of the milky way. Even if the relative positions of New Eden/Milky Way were known at one point, keep in mind that the collapse of the EVE gate was catastrophic, and the severing of all ties with the main body of human civilization caused everyone (with the exception of the jovians) to lapse back into a more primitive technological level.
Recent storyline hullabaloo involving the Sleepers/Talocan/etc. may suggest that someone has an idea of what to look for, but in terms of the 4 empires? I doubt it.
Also, if the collapse of the EVE gate caused such problems on this side, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it was similarly catastrophic on the other end?
And what if it was worse? What if human civilization 'back home' is less advanced?
|
![Bjron Bjron](https://images.evetech.net/characters/283546608/portrait?size=64)
Bjron
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Is it because people in New Eden don't know where it is?
Yes.
Or hell even when it is for that matter if it's even in the same universe (actually based on the funky physics it probably isn't)
The EVE gate was built on a natural worm hole, they had no idea where the other end went.
Yes they did, in the lore according to the eve evelopedia.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_gate_%28Location%29
In 23346 A.D. a bright star appeared to the EVE cluster. The mysterious "Star in the North" is speculated to be the closing of the Eve Gate in the Milky Way galaxy. In late November of that same year, the star disappeared from the sky without explanation.
Also, who is to say that what they have in EVE now, is even close to what was used before the gate closed? Not counting the advancement of time between the closing and now.
|
![Koragoni SkyKnight Koragoni SkyKnight](https://images.evetech.net/characters/526753830/portrait?size=64)
Koragoni SkyKnight
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:53:00 -
[7]
Let me preface all this with a huge... if my memory serves me correctly... it's been three years since I read any of the back story stuff.
From what I remember, prior to the discovery of the EVE gate, the Earth empire was on the verge of economic collapse. Humanity had already consumed and exhausted all of the local resources. Only the discovery of the EVE gate held off civil disruption and likely war.
Given that the Milky Yay galaxy was so consumed, when the EVE gate collapsed, the access to New Eden was severed. And with that access, all of the new resources provided.
It is likely that Earth and the surrounding empire went into a dark age itself after the gate closed. Open war over limited resources could have all but wiped out everything. If civilization did continue, they would have had to find ways to deal with the lack of resources, which would have had a huge negative impact on the development of new technology.
Besides, let's say for a moment that your original idea is true. Ships that move around at Cov Ops speed are also very small. A ship large enough to have the fuel to reach another galaxy would have to be quite large. The warp speeds of an Avatar class titan is 1.5au / second. A Providence class freighter is .8AU / second.
A ship of capital scale specifically designed to traverse the depths of space? Exactly how fast could it go?
|
![stoicfaux stoicfaux](https://images.evetech.net/characters/630981475/portrait?size=64)
stoicfaux
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:56:00 -
[8]
Warp drives require locking onto a gravitational point. You can't point your ship in a direction and start moving.
You would need to use a ship with a jump drive.
Prior to jump drives, new stargates required sending a slow, newtonian physics powered ship to the destination and building the stargate. Here's a relevant chronicle, Old Man's Star.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|
![Bjron Bjron](https://images.evetech.net/characters/283546608/portrait?size=64)
Bjron
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Koragoni SkyKnight Let me preface all this with a huge... if my memory serves me correctly... it's been three years since I read any of the back story stuff.
From what I remember, prior to the discovery of the EVE gate, the Earth empire was on the verge of economic collapse. Humanity had already consumed and exhausted all of the local resources. Only the discovery of the EVE gate held off civil disruption and likely war.
Given that the Milky Yay galaxy was so consumed, when the EVE gate collapsed, the access to New Eden was severed. And with that access, all of the new resources provided.
It is likely that Earth and the surrounding empire went into a dark age itself after the gate closed. Open war over limited resources could have all but wiped out everything. If civilization did continue, they would have had to find ways to deal with the lack of resources, which would have had a huge negative impact on the development of new technology.
Besides, let's say for a moment that your original idea is true. Ships that move around at Cov Ops speed are also very small. A ship large enough to have the fuel to reach another galaxy would have to be quite large. The warp speeds of an Avatar class titan is 1.5au / second. A Providence class freighter is .8AU / second.
A ship of capital scale specifically designed to traverse the depths of space? Exactly how fast could it go?
I been re-reading the lore/back story at work. You are fairly spot on.
But even that leaves a lot of questions, like what if they found other resources?
Are they even in the same universe is a good question, I assume they are in the same "reality".
I would guess that a vessel that was made to go long distance would have design features that make it faster and more able to handle the trip, as those ships where not made with that in mind.
Also, how are jump gates made? some one had to go there and make them? Does that mean that ships could still be travailing to places that do not have a jump gate to make them, completely unaware of anything else that has went on.
|
![Koragoni SkyKnight Koragoni SkyKnight](https://images.evetech.net/characters/526753830/portrait?size=64)
Koragoni SkyKnight
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:10:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 17/02/2011 21:11:20 I believe, jump gates are made with sleeper-ships going to the other side the hard way. Which would imply that New Eden already has ships designed for this purpose.
I don't remember seeing any real details on them though.
Anyway, these ships would have been sent by the empires consistently throughout New Eden history, and one could start-up and build the gate any time.
There is a chronicle, "Old Man Star" I think that explains a good portion of this.
|
|
![Jagga Spikes Jagga Spikes](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1866431947/portrait?size=64)
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 17/02/2011 21:22:00 warp speeds in game are game design choice. traveling across solar system within minutes is exclusively for convenience of players.
a lot of stats make no sense lore-wise. ship scale, for example (length-volume-cargo-cost). also, mass/volume stats of many items are guesstimated for game play requirements.
if i would run role-play game with friends, warp speeds would be in weeks to cross solar system. crossing entire cluster would take months or years. if everything is "less than an hour away" it really takes size out of distance.
edit: typo ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
![Bjron Bjron](https://images.evetech.net/characters/283546608/portrait?size=64)
Bjron
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Koragoni SkyKnight Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 17/02/2011 21:11:20 I believe, jump gates are made with sleeper-ships going to the other side the hard way. Which would imply that New Eden already has ships designed for this purpose.
I don't remember seeing any real details on them though.
Anyway, these ships would have been sent by the empires consistently throughout New Eden history, and one could start-up and build the gate any time.
There is a chronicle, "Old Man Star" I think that explains a good portion of this.
I read it, was a good story.
|
![warpod warpod](https://images.evetech.net/characters/424182700/portrait?size=64)
warpod
Amarr People Desintegration Project
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: stoicfaux Warp drives require locking onto a gravitational point. You can't point your ship in a direction and start moving.
Emergency warp does not require locking onto a gravitational point.
|
![stoicfaux stoicfaux](https://images.evetech.net/characters/630981475/portrait?size=64)
stoicfaux
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: warpod
Originally by: stoicfaux Warp drives require locking onto a gravitational point. You can't point your ship in a direction and start moving.
Emergency warp does not require locking onto a gravitational point.
What is "emergency warp?"
Here's the link to the tech article about the required gravity point. Second half of the second paragraph.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|
![Crumplecorn Crumplecorn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101287868/portrait?size=64)
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: warpod
Originally by: stoicfaux Warp drives require locking onto a gravitational point. You can't point your ship in a direction and start moving.
Emergency warp does not require locking onto a gravitational point.
Technically you can warp in an arbitrary direction, but your sensors won't work, so you won't be certain how far you've gone or where you are or if you're about to hit a star. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
![Chandaris Chandaris](https://images.evetech.net/characters/753486892/portrait?size=64)
Chandaris
Gallente Lethal Devotion
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:29:00 -
[16]
Then how do you explain the ability to warp to a bookmark?
No grav to lock on to there..
|
![stoicfaux stoicfaux](https://images.evetech.net/characters/630981475/portrait?size=64)
stoicfaux
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Chandaris Then how do you explain the ability to warp to a bookmark?
No grav to lock on to there..
Personally, after much therapy, I've come to grips with the fact that Eve Physics aren't even internally consistent.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
|
![Koragoni SkyKnight Koragoni SkyKnight](https://images.evetech.net/characters/526753830/portrait?size=64)
Koragoni SkyKnight
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:32:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Koragoni SkyKnight on 17/02/2011 21:33:32 If you're warping to a bookmark you're warping to a set of coordinates that are relative to the gravity wells nearby.
Now if only we could arbitrarily select a coordinate set instead of having to slide through and cheat the system they way we do now.
And no, this game has more plot holes and consistency violations than there are grains of sand on a given beach.
That doesn't mean it isn't fun to dream about this stuff from time to time.
|
![Vincent Athena Vincent Athena](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1890350737/portrait?size=64)
Vincent Athena
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:47:00 -
[19]
The bookmark is not just a set of coordinates, but details of the space-time metric at that location, and knowing that, you can warp there. Something like that was stated by CCP.
Ive always thought the New Eden WH crossed time as well as space, placing us billions of years in the future. The evidence is in the age of some stars (do "get info" on stars as you fly). Some are over 20 billion years old. If we are billions of years in the future, then the is no earth to go back to.
But that WH could have lead to a completely different universe too.
I always thought it would be cool to expand 0.0 by allowing players to warp to new stars and build stargates there.
|
![Skex Relbore Skex Relbore](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1574005753/portrait?size=64)
Skex Relbore
Gallente Skexcorp
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 22:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bjron
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Is it because people in New Eden don't know where it is?
Yes.
Or hell even when it is for that matter if it's even in the same universe (actually based on the funky physics it probably isn't)
The EVE gate was built on a natural worm hole, they had no idea where the other end went.
Yes they did, in the lore according to the eve evelopedia.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_gate_%28Location%29
In 23346 A.D. a bright star appeared to the EVE cluster. The mysterious "Star in the North" is speculated to be the closing of the Eve Gate in the Milky Way galaxy. In late November of that same year, the star disappeared from the sky without explanation.
Also, who is to say that what they have in EVE now, is even close to what was used before the gate closed? Not counting the advancement of time between the closing and now.
No it doesn't say that. The people of New Eden know where the EVE gate is that isn't the milky way but rather the New Eden side of the worm hole.
The "North Star" was speculated to be the other end of the gate in the milky way however that isn't consistent with the lore that had the EVE gate opened for a couple decades while the man made gate was being built. It could just as easily been some other stellar event. in fact it seems very unlikely that it would be the milky way the closest galaxy to the milky way is 160,000 light years away meaning it would have taken 160,000 years for the light of the EVE gate from the Milky way to reach new Eden and frankly unless there the worm hole traversed the 4th dimension then not enough time has elapsed for that "north star" to have been the Milky Way. Besides it seems unlikely that something as relatively small as the collapse of the EVE Gate would have created a light bright enough to be visible from 160,000 LY. That's assuming that New Eden is even in the same cluster.
I don't think you are really understanding the scales we're talking about here (hell I'm not sure human beings are capable of understanding these scales)
So given the fact that the Terran's didn't know where New Eden was it's highly improbable that after the collapse of civilization that anyone living in New Eden would have a clue, except maybe the Jove (though it seems unlikely they could have figured it out either).
Then consider that a worm hole can just as easily burrow through time and all bets are off. New Eden might even be the milky way but billions of years in the past or future.
Or it could be in a completely different universe explaining why the laws of physics are not the same as those in the Terran reality (ours).
|
|
![Valhasi Ju'ma'ha Valhasi Ju'ma'ha](https://images.evetech.net/characters/426760841/portrait?size=64)
Valhasi Ju'ma'ha
|
Posted - 2011.02.17 22:25:00 -
[21]
Lesson to learn
When one identifies fantasy DO NOT under any circumstances confuse that with reality or attempt to explain fantasy with reality constructs. Doing so will leave you worse off than trying to understand "Inception" run backwards.
|
![Burial Day Burial Day](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90207929/portrait?size=64)
Burial Day
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 00:24:00 -
[22]
The obvious (and only) answer is that a game/movie/book/whatever is only as realistic as the creator has the ability to account for. CCP cannot make the entire universe, and yes, you can supply all sorts of justifications for why the "residents" of "New Eden" haven't moved out yet, but it's all pointless.
|
![Cyberman Mastermind Cyberman Mastermind](https://images.evetech.net/characters/823031550/portrait?size=64)
Cyberman Mastermind
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 06:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Koragoni SkyKnight And no, this game has more plot holes and consistency violations than there are grains of sand on a given beach.
Eve has plot? I am aware of the backstory, but personally I've come to the conclusion that the backstory has nothing to do with the game itself. |
![CheekyBitOnTheSide CheekyBitOnTheSide](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1642407528/portrait?size=64)
CheekyBitOnTheSide
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 06:49:00 -
[24]
Wingy bits, that is all
|
![Londo Cebb Londo Cebb](https://images.evetech.net/characters/658331746/portrait?size=64)
Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 06:57:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Londo Cebb on 18/02/2011 06:59:43
There is only ONE Universe.
Definition of UNIVERSE
1 : the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated
Source
If you think you have found another Universe, you have not. It is still just the Universe, the Universe is everything.
|
![Ver Selam Ver Selam](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90139582/portrait?size=64)
Ver Selam
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 07:18:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ver Selam on 18/02/2011 07:35:56
Originally by: Londo Cebb Edited by: Londo Cebb on 18/02/2011 06:59:43
There is only ONE Universe.
Definition of UNIVERSE
1 : the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated
Source
If you think you have found another Universe, you have not. It is still just the Universe, the Universe is everything.
The concept of multiple "universes" has been mentioned by many, many different sources for decades, you pedantic twit.
pedant, n. - one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge
Source
As for the topic of the thread, a key part of the EVE backstory is that humanity never figured out where New Eden was relative to the Milky Way. Even when the EVE Gate was stable and active, no one could so much as establish that the two galaxies existed in the same universe. When the EVE Gate was destroyed, all hope of finding another route to the Milky Way was lost. There isn't much motivation to, either; I think the Sisters of EVE are the only ones who have invested any significant time or thought into discovering what lies beyond the Gate.
|
![DuKackBoon DuKackBoon](https://images.evetech.net/characters/261274269/portrait?size=64)
DuKackBoon
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 08:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: DuKackBoon on 18/02/2011 08:20:27 A Wormhole as far as I know, only leads to the same universe.
The New Eden cluster is probably somewhere near the 'Edge' of the universe, considering how young it is. Which means, it's hard to reach, mkay?
|
![Londo Cebb Londo Cebb](https://images.evetech.net/characters/658331746/portrait?size=64)
Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 09:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ver Selam The concept of multiple "universes" has been mentioned by many, many different sources for decades, you pedantic twit.
This is what you get when pseudoscience is waived around as fact and even the most basic understanding of things around us is traded in for unsubstantiated drivel. If i saw it on the science channel it must be fact!!
You can no more call the correct usage the term "universe" pedantic, than you can the correct usage of the term acceleration, or velocity. Try substituting those two and see how far you get in a physics course.
You could have multiple dimensions, multiple realities, hell even multiple timelines, but they are all part of the same universe. That is the very definition of the term.
|
![Jokerface666 Jokerface666](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1035268231/portrait?size=64)
Jokerface666
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 14:05:00 -
[29]
I'll tell you why, becouse the JOVE are blowing everyone from milky way up who tries to get here! POINT! w00t w00t wtfpwnage train |
![Khamelean Khamelean](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1266404672/portrait?size=64)
Khamelean
|
Posted - 2011.02.18 14:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Londo Cebb Edited by: Londo Cebb on 18/02/2011 06:59:43
Definition of UNIVERSE
1: the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated
Therefore, anything that has not yet been observed of postulated must exist in another universe?
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |