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Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.20 09:28:00 - [1] I know this topic is old but i just thought of it now so I want to add my two bits. Planets and stuff that actually orbit their star in eve... This is not a request just somthing that I was thinking about and though I might share with ppl. First they could do the planet in orbit thing by doing the following. Model it on somthing like Elite II. ANd if you have not played it it works like this. All plents orbit their sun, and obrit at different speeds depending on their distance from the sun. If you warp to a planet, there is a certain distance that you have to be from the planet to be considered to be "moving at the same speed as the planet, or being... "Drawn along by the planets gravity". (basically being in geostable orbit so your ship is now moving with the planet in its orbit.) However, if your outside of the range where the planet exerts its effect if you are stationary, the planet will slowly move away from your ship... or infact closer to your ship depending on wich way its orbiting and wich way you have warped in from. Safe spots: Sure this is going to upset people who love their safe spots, but I think it makes it more... intresting as safe spots can still be used, you just now have to think about if its in a planets orbit. If it is in an orbit, perhaps have the safe spot stay where it is even if planet moves into its position, and if you happen to warp to it while the planet is in the safe spots posission, you just end up obiting the planet... shrugs I think its posible to do, even if you leave the planets so that you can still warp through them, what would be more intresting was say, if you had ships stay cloaked and akf in the path of a planet, and it would like, pick up ships as it whent past so they would end up traveling with the planet when they fell into the "rquiered range". Intresting thoughts... Zat iz not a boobie!
Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.02.20 09:36:00 - [2] Shouldn't this be down in the Suggestions etc forum? and While I'm all for moving planets, on a realistic value the movement you'd see in space isn't that large, and you really want to add another few Million Calculations to a server that already has 'issues' at times? - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.20 09:39:00 - [3] I think you missed the line that said "This is not a request" But you have a valid point on increasing the server load with the added load of moving planets etc, even tho the calculations are rather simple... I don't know how that really translates with rendered objects...??? Zat iz not a boobie!
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.20 09:47:00 - [4] No bookmark would ever work, even ones in position around stargates. it doesn't just change "safespots", it destroys every single bookmark in the game. The only way to fix that is to fundamentally change the way bookmarks are coded in the game so that they are saved based on proximity to the nearest gravity well. Good luck getting anyone to support that idea under the pretention of fluff.
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:00:00 - [5] Edited by: Tempest Starkitty on 20/02/2011 10:01:24 Originally by: Kuronaga No bookmark would ever work, even ones in position around stargates. it doesn't just change "safespots", it destroys every single bookmark in the game. The only way to fix that is to fundamentally change the way bookmarks are coded in the game so that they are saved based on proximity to the nearest gravity well. Good luck getting anyone to support that idea under the pretention of fluff. Ummmm.... i point to the line... "This is not a request" yet again... I see creative thinking is dead... sigh and did you see what I said about not effecting book marks if they are not made within the capture distance... that means they will stay where they are even if the planet moves through them. However.. lets say you warped to a star gate, and so are classed as "moving with it" ie you are now in its orbit and THEN you make a book mark, they could make it only then will the book mark also move with the object... somthing along thoes lines... so no... it would no destroy all book marks... Zat iz not a boobie!
Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:05:00 - [6] I was simply looking at it from a programming point of view and no i didn't read the this is nto a request part sorry. The problem is while the calculations are rather simple they still have to be ran once every x ticks etc etc or weird ass junk starts to happen.. And given you can have say 9 planets + in a solar system + 8 moons per planet etc that can quickly add up to a few million if not billion calculations that have to be done to make certain that each object is in the right position at the right time etc etc etc especially given Eve kinda has to do it for every solar system.. Orbital Mechanics even 'simplified' can chew up a lot of data processing. I admit it's a cool idea and it'd add tot he immursion etc but I just don't see with out a lot more lag how it can be done that's all. - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Juil I was simply looking at it from a programming point of view and no i didn't read the this is nto a request part sorry. The problem is while the calculations are rather simple they still have to be ran once every x ticks etc etc or weird ass junk starts to happen.. And given you can have say 9 planets + in a solar system + 8 moons per planet etc that can quickly add up to a few million if not billion calculations that have to be done to make certain that each object is in the right position at the right time etc etc etc especially given Eve kinda has to do it for every solar system.. Orbital Mechanics even 'simplified' can chew up a lot of data processing. I admit it's a cool idea and it'd add tot he immursion etc but I just don't see with out a lot more lag how it can be done that's all. Hey its cool, And yes I also though about it from a server perspective as well... In a single player game like Elite 2 (wich could fit on 4.5' floppy disk) would do the calculations for each system that your in. But im sure it was not, doing them for systems that you were not in. Eve would have to do the calcs accross all nodes... all of the time... even if the planets movement was rather slow... yes... the hampsters would give up the ghost... LOL Zat iz not a boobie!

CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:26:00 - [8] Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'. Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Aldarica Spinal Discipline	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Aldarica on 20/02/2011 10:29:29 Frankly, I don't see a point in all this. If the bookmarks are attached to planets and other gravity wells instead to absolute coordinates, nothing would really change regarding the travel - we would still be able to warp to bookmarks in same manner like now. Only certain thing we're getting is (vastly) increased server load because of all aditional calculations, which would be completely invisible for players anyway. So again - what's the point? Ultimately, one could imagine that celestials are moving in current system as well, that our navigational computers are actually taking this into account and perform necessary corrections before initiating the warp.... it's the same thing. When you have two methods giving identical results, go for the simpler one.
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Aldarica Edited by: Aldarica on 20/02/2011 10:29:29 Frankly, I don't see a point in all this. If the bookmarks are attached to planets and other gravity wells instead to absolute coordinates, nothing would really change regarding the travel - we would still be able to warp to bookmarks in same manner like now. Only certain thing we're getting is (vastly) increased server load because of all aditional calculations, which would be completely invisible for players anyway. So again - what's the point? Ultimately, one could imagine that celestials are moving in current system as well, that our navigational computers are actually taking this into account and perform necessary corrections before initiating the warp.... it's the same thing. When you have two methods giving identical results, go for the simpler one. You could think of it that way, but then I still think your kind of seeing it wrong... for example... if 2 planets in the same system are at counter points in their orbit, the distance to travle from one to the other is greater than when lets say, they are passing by each other, and so its a shorter travel time between them. Remember the orbits could be taking months/years to compleat, (years might be a bit a bit much... but eve IS ment to be real time-ish) and remember I did mention that if you leave a bookmark out side of an objects "AOE" it will stay there, even if its in the objects path, but if you warp to that local when the "object" is in the same spot as your book mark you simply go "into orbit" with said object. the book mark will stay after its moved on... etc... Zat iz not a boobie!

sartorii Genco Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:46:00 - [11] wonders if the op as any clue how much impact adding orbital mechanics to a MMORPG engine would have... Even if you aren't a software developer (or astrophysicist type) how many planets in Eve? How many moons? All at different radi and rotational speeds... starting to get the picture? *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Tempest Starkitty Originally by: Juil I was simply looking at it from a programming point of view and no i didn't read the this is nto a request part sorry. The problem is while the calculations are rather simple they still have to be ran once every x ticks etc etc or weird ass junk starts to happen.. And given you can have say 9 planets + in a solar system + 8 moons per planet etc that can quickly add up to a few million if not billion calculations that have to be done to make certain that each object is in the right position at the right time etc etc etc especially given Eve kinda has to do it for every solar system.. Orbital Mechanics even 'simplified' can chew up a lot of data processing. I admit it's a cool idea and it'd add tot he immursion etc but I just don't see with out a lot more lag how it can be done that's all. Hey its cool, And yes I also though about it from a server perspective as well... In a single player game like Elite 2 (wich could fit on 4.5' floppy disk) would do the calculations for each system that your in. But im sure it was not, doing them for systems that you were not in. Eve would have to do the calcs accross all nodes... all of the time... even if the planets movement was rather slow... yes... the hampsters would give up the ghost... LOL see above quotes... Zat iz not a boobie!
Fyrgen Hith	Posted - 2011.02.20 13:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Kuronaga No bookmark would ever work, even ones in position around stargates. it doesn't just change "safespots", it destroys every single bookmark in the game. The only way to fix that is to fundamentally change the way bookmarks are coded in the game so that they are saved based on proximity to the nearest gravity well. Good luck getting anyone to support that idea under the pretention of fluff. Soooooo wrong, think of each solar system as a grid, the sun is at one point in the grid stationary, the BMs would also be stationary points in the grid, or well i'd guess be referencing the same point on the grid like they do now while the planets would be moving from point to point to point to point(etc etc etc).
GizzyBoy	Posted - 2011.02.20 13:28:00 - [14] So game physics not withstanding, theres the chance you may crash into a planet / sun / station due to your bookmark still having x.y.z and that space currently being occupied by an object. In real space, not only do we orbit our sun, but our sun is in rotating the center of our universe, and our universe is also moving in x direction. How far do you want to take it? or what are you hoping to see happen game wise by your implementation?
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2011.02.20 13:43:00 - [15] It was considered not to have them orbit for the hamsters health. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 20JAN11
Fyrgen Hith	Posted - 2011.02.20 13:44:00 - [16] Originally by: GizzyBoy So game physics not withstanding, theres the chance you may crash into a planet / sun / station due to your bookmark still having x.y.z and that space currently being occupied by an object. In real space, not only do we orbit our sun, but our sun is in rotating the center of our universe, and our universe is also moving in x direction. How far do you want to take it? or what are you hoping to see happen game wise by your implementation? ..... I'm going to take this in reverse of what you said; A)the Galaxy is moving as one therefore there isn't a need for that to be calculated. B)the Sun is orbiting the center of the galaxy(not universe) but so are the stars around us, in the same direction therefore also not needed. C)Eve has it set so if we do land in places we shouldn't be we are kicked out(safety system). D)Game physics are what needs to be considered. And that about covers the points you brought up.
Amaroq Dricaldari Amarr Universal Deathdealing Militia Fusion Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.20 22:49:00 - [17] I would love to Warp into a Planet's Magnetic Field and use that to make myself undetctable by sensors, but have a penalty for being in it's magnetic field to balance things out. -- As an Amarr Defector, I chose to become a Mercenary and Industrialist. I also have one goal in mind: Create a new age of peace and prosperity for all four empires.
Kilostream Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.21 00:04:00 - [18] Thing is OP, what you're talking about here is physics. Now, call me a pedant, but the way ships etc behave in space (zero-g) in eve does not even remotely represent how actual spaceships might behave in actual zero-g (for example you're flying what appears to be straight down, you hit ctrl-space and your ship "rights" itself) I'd say this was more like a submarine in a fluid than a craft in space. If we're going to accept this sort of inaccuracy, we might as well go the whole hog and accept 'fixed' planets for the sake of cutting lag. Sure true moving planets would be a nice-to-have, but for what's relevant in-game, there's a whole bunch of more important things that need to be fixed first.
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.02.23 08:59:00 - [19] Originally by: Kilostream Thing is OP, what you're talking about here is physics. Now, call me a pedant, but the way ships etc behave in space (zero-g) in eve does not even remotely represent how actual spaceships might behave in actual zero-g (for example you're flying what appears to be straight down, you hit ctrl-space and your ship "rights" itself) I'd say this was more like a submarine in a fluid than a craft in space. If we're going to accept this sort of inaccuracy, we might as well go the whole hog and accept 'fixed' planets for the sake of cutting lag. Sure true moving planets would be a nice-to-have, but for what's relevant in-game, there's a whole bunch of more important things that need to be fixed first. Hey no argument there on how ships are wroking in zero G, but thats somthing that is more simple to let slide... trust me... if you have ever played Elite II you would know a newtonian based flight system for ships makes for really crappy game play when it comes to shooting things. But i think orbiting objects would give the game a new dynamic, such as, there will times of the month/year when its quicker to traverse certain systems because of orbital alignment making trade routs more appealing at certain points of time etc, or say, some nullsec systems would be hard going when orbital alignment of stargates are at their furthest appart, but quicker to traverse when they are closer in orbit etc... I think alignment of ship and how it moves is somthing that needs to stay like it is as it makes for simpler battles and the such, and to address the bookmark issue if a planet or somthing else is in its space like i mentiopned before, you would not crash into it, you would simply go into "orbit" around ie end up like you do now when you warp to a planet, untill its Area of effect (see other posts) moves on... Zat iz not a boobie!
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2011.02.23 13:11:00 - [20] First off, the amount of impact orbiting planets have would be minimal in terms in immersion vs the amount of effort it would require to make it happen and honestly with planets with actual orbit times nearinng 100-400 years would you notice? Next I saw a comment about ships self righting up, thats the telemetry set by the elipitical by the local navigation beacons and computer, things get really confusing if you dont make a sense of direction, even if it is artifical but its not that artifical, elipticals are very good reference points to have becuase just about eveything you could care for in a solar system can be found inside the eliptical. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 20JAN11

Whezker Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.02.23 14:34:00 - [21] I support. I think that for people hwo stays a long period time operating around a particular station, would be great to see how the enviorement is not the same everyday, changing the positions between stations, moons and planets. But this system needs one more type of movement that is planet rotation. Like earth. I really don't thionk about lag or server job. I'm not the developer, ccp is so all I want to say is that I love this idea and if it's possible to develop that would be so nice. -Mess with the bestà àdie like the rest
Jango Hett	Posted - 2011.02.23 17:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Nova Fox First off, the amount of impact orbiting planets have would be minimal in terms in immersion vs the amount of effort it would require to make it happen and honestly with planets with actual orbit times nearinng 100-400 years would you notice? Just to play devil's advocate here, but wuold it really add a lot of CPU overhead? The servers wouldn't need to update coordinates more than once a day; so for less than 8000 systems with say 16 orbiting bodies each (just guessing here) on a fixed/precalculated orbit, there would be about five multiplications, four look ups and one addition, along with the SQL update statement -- so 1.3 million floating point operations plus 128000 i/os on the database. That's not really that many -- we're talking a few seconds of processing time added to the overnight down time. With regards to the 'immersion', it wouldn't add a lot, but it would mix things up a little. A static map is something WoW has, because planetary geology occurs over millions of years. Yet in space, planets can rotate around their stars in days; galaxies do not spin like a plate, so gates might have to update their routes periodically (perhaps on a monthly basis). Regions of space that were accessible may become inaccessible for a while; and vice versa. Imagine what it would be like to be in a dynamic galaxy, instead of a static one...
Transius Porta	Posted - 2011.02.23 18:00:00 - [23] I like this idea, would personally love an everchanging scenery ^_^ Originally by: Kuronaga No bookmark would ever work, even ones in position around stargates. it doesn't just change "safespots", it destroys every single bookmark in the game. The only way to fix that is to fundamentally change the way bookmarks are coded in the game so that they are saved based on proximity to the nearest gravity well. Good luck getting anyone to support that idea under the pretention of fluff. Well, Destroys is maby a bit out there, one could "simply" chance the coordinates from global, to a local one, relative to the nearest point of interest (warp gate, star gate, station, planet, moon whatever) and if the bookmark is of an actual thing, then just it's location (since all trajectories should be pre-calculated and not directly simluated to make this realistic, it should be as easy to fetch it's location from the server as it is to any stationary point now.)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.02.26 20:51:00 - [24] An easy way to have moving planets is to just move them during down time, along with all "nearby" bookmarks. During up-time, they stay fixed like now. That way no additional lag is added, but we do get a bit more on the immersion side of the game.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2011.02.27 03:19:00 - [25] The effort was the updating of bookmarks is what I was referring too. Hell a simple solution to make both moons planets and belts orbit is to tie them in all into the clock and circle. However updating bookmarks in eve is a daunting task and has a massive impact, remember when they gave us wtz, we lost a good 25% of the lag between persona and sol servers. Then they got rid of alot more bookmarks in middle of nowhere, even further reduction in bookmarks. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 20JAN11
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.27 04:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Kilostream Thing is OP, what you're talking about here is physics. Now, call me a pedant, but the way ships etc behave in space (zero-g) in eve does not even remotely represent how actual spaceships might behave in actual zero-g (for example you're flying what appears to be straight down, you hit ctrl-space and your ship "rights" itself) I'd say this was more like a submarine in a fluid than a craft in space. If we're going to accept this sort of inaccuracy, we might as well go the whole hog and accept 'fixed' planets for the sake of cutting lag. Sure true moving planets would be a nice-to-have, but for what's relevant in-game, there's a whole bunch of more important things that need to be fixed first. /thread
Zey Nadar Gallente Unknown Soldiers Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.02.27 09:38:00 - [27] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 27/02/2011 09:41:49 Edited by: Zey Nadar on 27/02/2011 09:39:53 Originally by: Tempest Starkitty You could think of it that way, but then I still think your kind of seeing it wrong... for example... if 2 planets in the same system are at counter points in their orbit, the distance to travle from one to the other is greater than when lets say, they are passing by each other, and so its a shorter travel time between them. Remember the orbits could be taking months/years to compleat, (years might be a bit a bit much... but eve IS ment to be real time-ish) and remember I did mention that if you leave a bookmark out side of an objects "AOE" it will stay there, even if its in the objects path, but if you warp to that local when the "object" is in the same spot as your book mark you simply go "into orbit" with said object. the book mark will stay after its moved on... etc... Saturn moves full circle around the sun in 29 years. Why would you want to simulate extremely slow orbits like that? The bigger issue would simply be bookmarks at POSes that are orbiting moons which are orbiting planets, and move much faster around the planets than planets do around the sun.. But I still fail to see the point of making life harder. All bookmarks at the POS would be instantaneously wrong. For example: moon moves around the earth at the speed of 3600 kilometers per hour. (one kilometer per second) This discussion is academic anyway, since serverload would increase tremendously (especially to ensure that all thousands of clients clients had the same locations) for basically no reason at all.
Esiel Renegade Serenity	Posted - 2011.02.27 10:00:00 - [28] You are making a couple of assumptions with this argument 1 - each system will only require the simple "program" used in Elite II 2 - the load will be linear 1 - first off you are only factoring in planets and player BM's in your statement. How many other things are in space - we have Mission BM, Stations, Moons, POS's, anchorable objects (containers), abandoned ships, probes and each and every player that is flying in the system. I am sure there are other things as well. Which brings us to #2 the load will be exponential as it has to calculate each thing for every single pilot that jumps in a system it will grow till it reaches infinite. And I haven't even thought of Jita yet. Your idea might be simple with a single system with minimal interaction but think how much work a system will have to do with a simple 100 vs 100 battle. This makes what you propose something only a supercomputer could keep up with. ... Beat the dead horse
Tempest Starkitty Gallente I'm Charging My Lazor	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:08:00 - [29] I like how this topic has panned out, nice to see that there are a few people that like the idea. There are also some very valid points on server load and such. And I think it would be an intresting programing task with a single system (but multiplayer) only to see what the load would be like. Thanks all for your inputs!! Zat iz not a boobie!
Persona n0ngrata	Posted - 2011.03.02 03:32:00 - [30] I would say that the easiest way for this to be implemented into game would be to set it up so that each system has 23 different positions for all orbital bodies not including moons as making a pos change position every hour would be a little too much. basically every hour every planet in system would change to a new location until just before down time they arrive back at their starting location. This could add a interesting new dynamic for bookmarks made at planets in a system because as it is right now their is no reason to warp to a planet at say 100km and bookmark that location. But if you implement this system, bookmarking at a planet at 0200 eve time then come back to it at 0300 eve time you will suddenly have a new safe spot. It will also add a new dynamic to making normal safes as every hour that comes and goes will provide new possibilitys for your new safe spot. With this system you wont need to worry about warping into the middle of a planet either from a safe you made earlier in the day as the planets shouldn't be set up in a way that will allow that. This will also provide the idea that the planets are orbiting with out them actually moving. As far as how to implement this with out having multiple down times, I do not know. But it would be nice to have compared to just the static planets we have now.



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