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Razor Blue Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:03:00 - [31] After jumping, all capitals have approx 45-60 sec invu when they cannot be targeted. This invu is broken if you move your ship or activate any modules. If you jumped to docking range, DONT DO ANYTHING, do not activate anyhing. Just wait for the session timer to expire and dock. In lowsec check the station models before hand. Caldari and Amarr types usually have large dock radius. Minmatars are usually kickouts so avoid them. You know how to play docking games, right? It should be near impossible to lose JF in lowsec. Just dont go through lowsec -> lowsec gates. Only go through Lowsec -> Highsec A small trick that ive done few times in stationless systems: 1. Use cyno alt to drop fresh new, in-warp safespot 2. Make the cyno alt to squad leader 3. Jump the capital 4. Use squad warp to the bookmark (naturally the cyno alt is immobile but it can "sling" the capital into safespot) 5. Warp back to the pos
Teramaxus	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:22:00 - [32] Always JF to a station. If you JF to a POS, have a cap fleet on standby.
Tellenta Gallente Pastry Productions Inc. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2011.02.22 00:07:00 - [33] Going to repeat the always cyno to a station thingy because... seriously only cyno to a station. if your pos is in the same system you can warp to it without leaving dock radius pretty sure kickouts have been eliminated from the game which is sad for everyone except the jump freighter pilot. I've never had a problem getting in to warp from undocking even if I did a 180 and was heading back to station.
stattester	Posted - 2011.02.22 00:12:00 - [34] thanks for all the advice it will come in handy
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 04:58:00 - [35] I sent this via evemail to the op but since there have been so many scattered, silly, and stupid replies, I figured something must be done for the rest of your poor sobs. Reformatted for your viewing pleasure. ---------------- o/ I fly a JF a lot on another toon, she spends more or less all her time in one nowadays, and has for the last ~16 months. I haven't lost one yet. Here are my suggestions: 1. Always cyno on station in low-sec. BUT be careful to pick a good station, one that does not "kick out" on the undock. That means that you can undock your JF and coast through the entire 30 second session change timer and still be at ZERO meters to the station. Certain stations will leave you hanging outside docking radius and that can be very dangerous. By way of example: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/X-7OMU The station @ 2-7 is great, the station at 4-3 is terrible. Click the station links to see pictures of the specific station. The Caldari player built outposts are to be entirely avoided unless local is completely clear. 2. Experiment with a cyno location. Find one that always lands your JF on zero to the station when you jump and which does not bounce you off the station. BOOKMARK that spot and always use it with your cyno alts. 3. Session Change Timers are your friend Once you jump to the low-sec cyno, WAIT the full 30 seconds before doing ANYTHING with your JF. That way if anyone attempts to aggress you, you can immediately dock up. Likewise on undocking, just wait out the session change and THEN warp/jump out. 4. Cyno @ a POS: the easy, safe way If you cyno onto a POS, have a bookmark on the opposite side of the POS that you can warp @ 100km to, that will then land you inside the forcefield when you finish your warp. Usually this means cyno'ing @ 15km from edge of POS shields on one side, with a bookmark that's 110km on the opposite side of the tower. Play with this, make it your friend, and make bookmarks like it on every tower you cyno to, either in low-sec or 0.0. Then, use a cyno ship with double webs, and you load the system in your JF, warp to your bookmark @ 100km, double web your freighter, and watch yourself insta-warp. You will find yourself safely inside the POS shields after cyno'ing to the tower within seconds of reaching the system, much faster than any log-in trap can function. This is the law of the 7 Ps: proper previous planning prevents poor performance. Making bookmarks is a pain but it will save your butt and you'll be glad you did it. 5. Zen and the Art of Checking on the Locals Don't cyno into local on a tower with any neutrals or hostiles in it ever. Don't cyno when there are blues who have only been blue for a few days that you don't know their exact shiptype. They could be awox'ers cloaked waiting for you to jump in. If you know they're in a crane, however, you know they won't be cyno'ing in help (cranes have only one high slot, ofc). This is where knowing your ships helps a ton. 6. Scouting your cyno points If you jump to an 0.0 cyno beacon, don't jump unless you've scouted it yourself and you know that local is clear. Your corpmates are dumb. Your alliance mates are even dumber. Your allies are even worse. 95% of all of them are spies. Don't even think about trusting them for proper intel. 7. You've Got That Funny Feeling, whooa that funny feeling... Got a bad feeling that you're missing something? That maybe you forgot something in Jita, or that maybe the blue that keeps popping into local isn't really friendly at all? Take a 15 minute break. Go read a few pages of a book. Watch some TV. Chillax. Don't ever feel the need to be in a hurry when you're jumping around 10 bil worth of moon goo in your shiney 5 billion ISK rhea. Oh and one last thing: train up jump drive calibration V. ;-)
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 05:01:00 - [36] Slight addendum since I ran out of space: 7a. Passwords and You When you take that 15 minute break, do it in a station or in a POS that does not have a forcefield password set. Do not ever AFK in a jumpbridge POS. Ever.
Unej	Posted - 2011.02.22 10:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Tellenta Going to repeat the always cyno to a station thingy because... seriously only cyno to a station. if your pos is in the same system you can warp to it without leaving dock radius pretty sure kickouts have been eliminated from the game which is sad for everyone except the jump freighter pilot. I've never had a problem getting in to warp from undocking even if I did a 180 and was heading back to station. What are you talking about? There's still plenty of kick out stations
Hax Zoidberg	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Khulmahn 1. Always cyno on station in low-sec. BUT be careful to pick a good station, one that does not "kick out" on the undock. That means that you can undock your JF and coast through the entire 30 second session change timer and still be at ZERO meters to the station. Certain stations will leave you hanging outside docking radius and that can be very dangerous. By way of example: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/X-7OMU The station @ 2-7 is great, the station at 4-3 is terrible. Click the station links to see pictures of the specific station. The Caldari player built outposts are to be entirely avoided unless local is completely clear. What if you have to cyno to a system whose only station is of the kick-out type? Is it possible to find a good cyno spot for such stations?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:21:00 - [39] Edited by: Othran on 22/02/2011 12:24:32 A few tips for cynoing onto/out of stations/structures : 1) When making a cyno bookmark then use a cloaky and fit a salvager to it. The salvager has a range of 5km so you can hover over that and pan around to make sure your incoming ship isn't going to hit the structure and bounce. Using a cloaky means you can get a spot which makes it hard for anyone to quickly undock and bump you. Credit for the salvager tip goes to Granger from Agony Unleashed 2) When you pick the cyno spot then fly 5km directly away from the structure. Make sure you are still in docking range. 3) I differ a bit on kickout stations from most people. I'm quite happy to use them but only if I have an insta-undock (which you should have for all stations you dock at more than once). Never re-use the insta-undock and obviously you don't do it if you haven't been watching the system with an alt for a while. Edit - the reason I'm quite happy to use them is because in most cases people just never use them as cyno spots so they're nice and quiet. 4) On cyno'ing in : warp from off-grid to cyno tac when JF pilot has no session timer, light cyno, immediately jump, wait timer, dock and immediately log the JF pilot out. Most times if you do it quick enough then nobody spots the cyno until the JF pilot is logged out. Don't depend on it and try to use different cyno alts as much as possible.
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Hax Zoidberg Originally by: Khulmahn 1. Always cyno on station in low-sec. What if you have to cyno to a system whose only station is of the kick-out type? Is it possible to find a good cyno spot for such stations? Usually kick-out stations all have an area somewhere that you can safely cyno to and still be in docking radius, usually at zero, but your margin for error will be much smaller. This is where waiting out your session change timer before making any move will be very important. By way of example, the Minmatar station in x-7o @ 4-3, which is a notorious station model for kick-outtery, it is possible to cyno into it near the bottom of the downward tower thing and still be at zero when you come into system. Cyno'ing to kick out stations is never ideal, since you also have to undock from them. Use the insta-warp mentioned in the post above mine, but also use it cautiously as CCP has widened the angle at which you will undock, and sometimes insta-warps will fail you. The best bet is to use those stations outside of your normal routine, and to avoid making any part of their usage predictable in any way, so as to foil any local pirates or gangs. If a kick out is part of your cyno route, I would suggest finding another cyno route. If it's an infrequent stop for market pvp, just move slowly and cautiously, using some of the tricks here, and you shouldn't have issues.
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:55:00 - [41] Originally by: Othran 1) When making a cyno bookmark then use a cloaky and fit a salvager to it. Nice idea with the salvager, this had never occurred to me before, but is definitely a judicious usage of the tactical overlay for measuring range on stations where range is a bit FUBAR. Thanks to Grangar for sharing this, and to you as well, for posting it here. 2) When you pick the cyno spot then fly 5km directly away from the structure. Make sure you are still in docking range. Originally by: Othran 3) I differ a bit on kickout stations from most people. I'm quite happy to use them but only if I have an insta-undock (which you should have for all stations you dock at more than once). Never re-use the insta-undock and obviously you don't do it if you haven't been watching the system with an alt for a while. Edit - the reason I'm quite happy to use them is because in most cases people just never use them as cyno spots so they're nice and quiet. I've used them on occasion, and these systems are definitely more quiet - mostly because people tend to know the stations aren't "safe." But there's also almost always that one guy who sits and waits for some fool to dock and then attempts to kill them on the undock. I've waited overnight before with a JF in station to ensure I could undock without harassment. Oh, and on a totally different tract: If you frequently cyno into a system with a couple of pirates who like to pop cyno ships, considering paying a small tax to avoid harassment. I got to know a pirate who frequented one of my cyno midpoints, ending up chatting with him and eventually "donated" an onyx. I was careful to avoid, however, asking him not to shoot at my cynos. We just chatted about this and that, eventually an onyx exchanged hands, along with the subtle hints that we were now "friends." I've never lost a cyno kestrel again in that system, and even though it will take a long way to recoup the ISK value of the onyx, the time saved in peace of mind and the hassle of bringing in more cyno frigates was well worth it.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:33:00 - [42] Edited by: Othran on 22/02/2011 17:35:54 Originally by: Khulmahn I've used them on occasion, and these systems are definitely more quiet - mostly because people tend to know the stations aren't "safe." But there's also almost always that one guy who sits and waits for some fool to dock and then attempts to kill them on the undock. I've waited overnight before with a JF in station to ensure I could undock without harassment. I think you misunderstand me - or I'm getting your reply wrong. I meant that I'll warp the JF to several thousand km off the undock and jump from there. Provided there's no bubbler around then its fairly safe - warp to the insta-undock a couple of seconds before session timer runs out, as you land you jump to cyno. Obviously you need a decent insta and you need some knowledge of the systems. For example I sometimes use a low-sec system which is routinely full of null alliances/neg sec people and its typically got 40-50 in local. Its a staging system for three sov regions. Were I to use one of the "favoured" stations I'd get loads of aggro so I use a station that people hate. It takes a bit longer setting up a dozen or so instas (after you use one for the JF then bin it) and it takes a little longer to make cyno bookmarks but the time saved in not having to wait when in JF makes it worth it. A further tip people : When you login the JF pilot assume that he's known as a JF pilot so you are aiming to jump within 70 seconds of login. I've seen people in low-sec maintain a watch for days to gank a JF - and yes they do get them. Don't login the JF pilot until you are 95% certain that a jump-out is on, so you station an alt in that system - preferably a no-skill one that you can bin every week assuming you're using the system regularly. Paranoia? Mmmmm I think not. I make notes of every pilot I see who can fly a cap and what type I saw them in, and who was scouting/lighting cynos - that's what the notes tab on character info is for after all. I'm not particularly good or clever so I assume I'm not the only one who does the same... Edit - and for everyone adding Othran to their "flies a JF" list then feel free. Othran however can't fly anything larger than BC size because its stunningly boring in BSs:)
Toilarmius Minmatar Auxilia Enterprises	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:19:00 - [43] As one who has an aspiring JF alt, this thread has been most excellent and extremely informative. Lots of great advice and info in here. Thanks to all of its contributors thus far. --- Originally by: CCP Fallout I can scan (but don't have time atm) a picture of one of my mother's modeling photos and you'd see hers as well, and she's more obviously a women than I'll ever be.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:24:00 - [44] Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 18:25:25 Baring pilot error or computer malfunction you cannot be killed in a JF in lowsec. The worst an enemy can do is camp you in a station on your final lowsec->highsec gate That involces someone wathcing the station for 23.5 hours whilst you wash the dishes, go to work, sleep, then periodicaly glance at your screen and try undocking. JF were one of a selection of bear boosts implemented by CCP that near killed piracy as a livable profession. Be a pirate, it says on the box. What it dosent say is transporting goods in the game is a matter of 20 mins from the jita undock to the deepest part of 0.0, bypassing all the pirates SKUNK (o)
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:32:00 - [45] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 18:25:25 Baring pilot error or computer malfunction you cannot be killed in a JF in lowsec. The worst an enemy can do is camp you in a station on your final lowsec->highsec gate That involces someone wathcing the station for 23.5 hours whilst you wash the dishes, go to work, sleep, then periodicaly glance at your screen and try undocking. JF were one of a selection of bear boosts implemented by CCP that near killed piracy as a livable profession. Be a pirate, it says on the box. What it dosent say is transporting goods in the game is a matter of 20 mins from the jita undock to the deepest part of 0.0, bypassing all the pirates SKUNK Its said a lot of stuff on the box and its mainly all been crap. Ganking at zero risk with full boosts from the cloaky T3 isn't "being a pirate" though so why should others play your game?
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Othran I think you misunderstand me - or I'm getting your reply wrong. Nope, I agree with your completely, I was just commenting further about the safety aspects of insta-warps. They are not as easy to use as they use to be. CCP has lowered your undocking speed and also widened your potential undocking angle, so you need to make really, really good insta-warps for them to be effective. A few months ago, before those two changes, you could use just about any old insta and be fine. tl;dr A good insta used when the undock is visually clear, and one that is never re-used (combat probes will scan you out in 6 seconds or less with good skills), combined with finding an excellent cyno-in spot on the station is how to use kick-out stations effectively. - I watch the prices of JFs regularly and when they occasionally peak over 5 bil (i got mine for 3.2) I always think about selling it and spending it on hookers and blow. But yeah, life without a JF is no life at all. It's a big investment but it's totally worth it. And jump calibration V, likewise, takes a month to train but you should just go ahead and add it to your skill queue now. Do it, go on, it's okay. It's worth it.
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 18:30:18 ~words~ Plenty of JFs die every day. You're doing it wrong (and so are plenty of JF pilots). http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8966872 (20 bil loss in low-sec) http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8970470 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8964211 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8949706
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:55:00 - [48] Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 18:57:10 Originally by: Khulmahn Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 18:30:18 Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 18:30:18 Baring pilot error or computer malfunction you cannot be killed in a JF in lowsec. ~words~ Plenty of JFs die every day. You're doing it wrong (and so are plenty of JF pilots). I know i waffle a bit but please read the first sentance I made, in particular the reference to pilot error and lowsec. Of the kills you linked: Two were in 0.0 One was in highsec (war dec, i watched that kill as it happened actualy - pilot error in not immediatly droping into a npc corp when the war mail hit.) Only one was in lowsec. And that was a loss because of pilot error. So again, i reafirm, YOU CANNOT BE KILLED IN A JF BARING PILOT ERROR OR COMPUTER MALFUNCTION IN LOWSEC. MAny thanks SKUNK (o)
Blue Adept Damage Unlimited Inc AN EYE F0R AN EYE	Posted - 2011.02.22 19:39:00 - [49] Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 21/02/2011 03:47:52 You can jump to something other than a station..provided you know what you're doing, have scouted the system, and have taken precautions so nobody gets the drop on you in any conceivable fashion including an awoxing alt. Not a lot of people in JF know what they're doing though.. Originally by: Goose99 There are places where you can get straight from highsec to sov null. lies. If you have no choice but to jump to a non-station system. Then, you could put the cyno up at a POS and simply not jump until the last few seconds of the cyno cycle. If local is clear for almost a full cyno cycle, then make the jump. The local cyno beacon will disappear just after you jump in and give you a little more time to get safe. If local is not completely clear then don't jump. If big ships warp in and kill your cyno before you jump, then you saved yourself 4+ billion isk at the cost of one cyno ship. Otherwise, just use a station like everyone else. -Blue Adept.
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:59:00 - [50] Originally by: Blue Adept you could put the cyno up at a POS and simply not jump until the last few seconds of the cyno cycle. The safer way to do this is to utilize the self-destruct feature on your ship. If you are just waiting for the end of the cyno, an attentive pirate or supercapital hotdrop all with wait for it, too. Get to your cyno location. Initate self-destruct on the cyno vessel. Wait about 1 minute and 50-ish seconds. Light cyno. Jump to cyno. Watch cyno die seconds later as your cyno ship completes self-destruction. This method ensures you will lose your cyno ship every time, but also limits the cyno exposure to 10 seconds or less if you time it well.
Mithrasith	Posted - 2011.02.22 21:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Le Skunk So again, i reafirm, YOU CANNOT BE KILLED IN A JF BARING PILOT ERROR OR COMPUTER MALFUNCTION IN LOWSEC. MAny thanks SKUNK You could say that about any ship - so I fail to see your point.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.22 21:15:00 - [52] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 22/02/2011 21:16:34 Originally by: Blue Adept Then, you could put the cyno up at a POS and simply not jump until the last few seconds of the cyno cycle. Dude. No. Cynos appear on the star map. And more often than not, there will be people in system and jumping at the last second just means they had 10 minutes to prepare. You just get your cynoalt into a (cloaking) kestrel with 2-3 webs. Park him inside of the pos. Have bookmarks ready on the grid of your pos (or off grid if you want, doesn't matter that much) that you do not reuse. make sure you can warp into ff from there and make sure that nobody can drop a bubble on you or in your path. If you do not have a pos, but the system is just a midpoint, make sure you can send your jf on a long warp to a different ss after jumping in. Then you drop cyno, jump immediately, and squadwarp the jf from your cynoalt. That way you can force the jf to warp even if your jf client hasn't loaded fully yet. Lock up the jf and if anything lands on your grid, web him into warp. Don't cause yourself aggro needlessly. Either warp your jf directly into ff, or warp to a ss far away and jump as soon as you land.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.02.22 21:26:00 - [53] Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/02/2011 21:32:45 Originally by: Mithrasith Originally by: Le Skunk So again, i reafirm, YOU CANNOT BE KILLED IN A JF BARING PILOT ERROR OR COMPUTER MALFUNCTION IN LOWSEC. MAny thanks SKUNK You could say that about any ship - so I fail to see your point. My point being I believe it is overpowered to be able to: 1)Buy 400000 m3 items in jita 4-4 2)Undock and cyno direct to lowsec station before being lockable 3)Dock for cap 4)Undock and cyno into 0.0 station without being lockable 5)Dock for cap REPEAT A FEW TIMES 6)Cyno into deep 0.0 station and deliver item. The transport process of the item from the center of high sec to the deepest 0.0 involves no risk baring lag or pilot error. With a properly set up cyno chain (read a few 350k cyno alts in kestrals) you can cross the map in 20 mins. Add to this phenominom titan bridge 20 man freighter fleets, cloak mwd, massive station undock bubbles, logofski, webbing to warp, speed nerf for capital bumping, cloaky haulers and the like (though i dont really object to cloaky haulers per se) and your looking at a major imbalance towards logistics over risk. Flying in the face of CCPs offt repeated mantra RISK vs REWARD SKUNK (o)
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.22 21:40:00 - [54] Can't believe I'm agreeing with Le Skunk.
Khulmahn	Posted - 2011.02.22 23:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Le Skunk My point being I believe it is overpowered to be able to: 1)Buy 400,000 m3 items in jita 4-4 ~more words~ 6)Undock and cyno What kinda JF are you flying, bro, cuz I want one of those.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.02.23 04:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Batolemaeus Can't believe I'm agreeing with Le Skunk. That. -
Anne Alingus	Posted - 2011.02.23 07:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Batolemaeus Can't believe I'm agreeing with Le Skunk. That. I wouldn't have as much of a problem agreeing with him if he'd only learn to spell "barring" properly.

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