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RagingRifter
Minmatar Invictus Australis
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Posted - 2011.02.26 00:17:00 -
[1]
so here is the deal. i have been arguing with someone about this topic and his stance is that the Nid is the best because it can rep armor and shield. from my knowledge of cap fights (which is limted) most support is close/mid/Sniper fit armor Bs's, correct me if i am wrong. 3 of 4 carriers can be armor fit. 3 of 4 moms are armo fit. 3 of 4 titans are armor fit. and dreads are in seige but still 2 of 4 are armor tanked(nag can be but cookie cutter it is shield?). meaning that 11 of 16 (69%) caps are/or can be armor tanked (12 of 16 (75%) if you armor tanked the nag, but i wouldnt).
so correct me if i am wrong but the nid is a thanny without drone bonuses or a chimera without resistances. tell me which carrier you think is best for traige and/or regualr logi. as well as what do you think about teh Nid and it's capabilities |
Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.02.26 00:26:00 -
[2]
Shields are becoming more and more popular now, but it depends on who you fly with. That said, a few points to clear up:
1)3 of the 4 Carriers can also be shield tanked, so that goes both ways
2)The Hel is shield tanked, giving the SC lineup a 2/2 split
3)Not so sure about the rag, since it has 6 lows / 7 mids
4)The nag and the thanny have the same slot layouot, and both can be either shield or armor tanked.
5)In terms of raw repping power the nid is obviously best. Don't think of it as a thanny/chim without their bonuses, think of it as a thanny with an RR bonus. Its only real problems (aside from getting primaried quite often) is that it's a bit short on fittings (CPU hurting the most IIRC) |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.02.26 00:33:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/02/2011 00:35:03 The Archon wins on fittings, capacitor, resist bonus, and repping armor. Not that throwing emergency shields on someone at the start of your rep cycle isn't a cool sometimes feature... but really it isn't that useful.
-Liang
Ed: Cambarus, I really want to see your reasonably Niddy fit that outreps an Archon. It just doesn't have the fittings to actually fit them or the cap to use them. :-/ -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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andeira
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Posted - 2011.02.26 00:40:00 -
[4]
archon by far imo if only it was for the fact it's a pitta to fit a local shield tank and more then 2 shield transporters and still have some decent capacitor regen (yes chimera I'm looking at you) -------------
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.26 01:26:00 -
[5]
There is also the issue that Cap Power Relays gimp your shield boost.
WTF CCP?
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.26 01:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: RagingRifter so correct me if i am wrong but the nid is a thanny without drone bonuses or a chimera without resistances. tell me which carrier you think is best for traige and/or regualr logi. as well as what do you think about teh Nid and it's capabilities
Archon. Better tank, better cap, easier fitting, and energy transfer bonus. That being said, a lot of subcap support fleets are shield nowadays, so yeah, the Nidhoggur has it's place.
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Poaw
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Posted - 2011.02.26 01:32:00 -
[7]
I hope you aren't arguing about this on Facebook.
At any rate for all the reasons above he's wrong, it was explained to him in alliance, to which his reply was a variation on "LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and insisting that 3750 shield per second was more than 4500 armor per second.
Correcting you is unwarranted and illogical. Mock him for his ignorance.
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.02.26 02:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: Cambarus, I really want to see your reasonably Niddy fit that outreps an Archon. It just doesn't have the fittings to actually fit them or the cap to use them. :-/
It is true that my playing eve too damn much for too damn long has skewed my perception of what constitutes a "reasonable" fit, especially once caps get involved. That said, I'm fairly certain it's rather trivial to get a nid to outrep an archon if you shield tank it, it's just that the local tank is going to be absolutely horrendous, and it won't have the staying power (be it by bad tanking or poor cap, the ship isn't going to be repping as long) of the archon.
But, like I said, it all comes down to what your corp wants. TBH as a rule I'd say if you can't come up with a fit that does what you want you might not be ready to fly the ship, as you should be looking to use a ship to fill a specific role, rather than trying to find a role for your specific fit. All these cookie-cutter fits make me cringe. >_> |
Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.02.26 02:28:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Target Painter on 26/02/2011 02:31:36
Originally by: Cambarus That said, I'm fairly certain it's rather trivial to get a nid to outrep an archon if you shield tank it, it's just that the local tank is going to be absolutely horrendous, and it won't have the staying power (be it by bad tanking or poor cap, the ship isn't going to be repping as long) of the archon.
That's pretty much it, it will outrep the Archon for the minute it's cap holds out, then suddenly fall behind. In triage or out, shield or armor, the Nidhoggur just doesn't have the cap and tanking ability of the Archon. So why use it?
"I only have Minmatar Battleship V trained" is the usual response. "We run shield fleets" is another good one.
Quote: All these cookie-cutter fits make me cringe. >_>
A shield tanking Nidhoggur, supporting an armor fleet with only one minute of usable cap while tanking (only about 8K DPS) makes me cringe more than some dude copying an Archon fit passed down from 2007.
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.02.26 03:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Target Painter
"I only have Minmatar Battleship V trained" is the usual response. "We run shield fleets" is another good one.
Quote: All these cookie-cutter fits make me cringe. >_>
A shield tanking Nidhoggur, supporting an armor fleet with only one minute of usable cap while tanking (only about 8K DPS) makes me cringe more than some dude copying an Archon fit passed down from 2007.
Was speaking generally, not referring to this thread with the cookie-cutter comment. That said, again, the corp you're in should decide which carrier you go for. An archon is much worse for a corp that mostly shield tanks than a nid. |
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.02.26 03:22:00 -
[11]
what fit does archon has more cap then chimera anyways?
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.26 04:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: Cambarus, I really want to see your reasonably Niddy fit that outreps an Archon. It just doesn't have the fittings to actually fit them or the cap to use them. :-/
Depends on what carriers are in fleet and how they are fit. Nidhoggurs can receive cap transfers from other carriers and get to actually use their increased rep amount.
Obvious pitfall there being they also are the weakest links resist-wise, so...
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Socio Stan
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Posted - 2011.02.26 04:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cambarus That said, I'm fairly certain it's rather trivial to get a nid to outrep an archon if you shield tank it, it's just that the local tank is going to be absolutely horrendous, and it won't have the staying power (be it by bad tanking or poor cap, the ship isn't going to be repping as long) of the archon.
The cap issue is an important drawback for the Nid.
The other important issue is fitting. The Niddy simply can not fit as many RRs as the Archon, and therefor cannot rep as much. That rep bonus does not make up for being short by 1-2 RRs. The only way the Nid can fit an equal number of RRs, and outrep the Archon, is if the Nid fits only RR, Triage, cap regen mods, and -zero- tank.
I think having a weaker self tank would be an acceptable trade off for the triage dropping niddy pilot, if only it could fit enough RRs to actually outrep any other carrier in a typical triage fit. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.02.26 04:59:00 -
[14]
The nidhoggur is an excellent ship despite popular opinion. Your choice between the archon, thanny and nidhoggur comes down to what you want. The archon has the best local tank (chimera ties it, but lacks fitting for RR), the thanny has the most dps if that's your thing and the nidhoggur is the best remote rep ship. You cannot ignore that 20-25% rep amount bonus.
Now, there are two basic ways to fit a carrier, triage and non-triage. If you fit for triage, you must be able to RR effectively and tank on your own. That means no cap xfers and no RR on you. The cookie cutter archon tanks 14k dps (12k with carrier and capital rep 4), a shield tanked niddy tanks 10k dps (no gang links, skill independent). Both ships can only perma run 2 RR (requires cap recharge implants) and burst a 3rd as needed (or shield/energy xfer). Both have ample fittings to do this and comparable cap recharge (520 on niddy, 560 on archon if my memory is right). Both of these setups have a utility high slot for an energy neut/nos/smartbomb. The ability to fit an additional RR on the archon is irrelevant as it lacks the cap to run it for more than a few seconds.
For non-triage, you'll fit for spider. This is where things get messy. A fleet of all nidhoggurs has the same spider tank as a fleet of all archons. The catch is if you have a mix of archons and niddies, the archons get their local tank bonus and are also the recipients of the remote rep bonus. Thus the archons tank even more while niddies are the weak links. However, thannies are also the weak links in that type of setup since they have the exact same tank as a niddy. so it's only the archon that stands out. In effect, archon pilots are greedy .
I fly both the archon and the nidhoggur. I favor the nidhoggur for triage and the archon for spider. It's worth noting that the niddy can fit an energy xfer, it just doesn't have a range bonus. As such it must be within 15km of it's xfer target. The shield xfer is also very handy. I find fitting 1 shield xfer and 2 armor remote reps more effective than 3x armor. The reason being the shield xfer keeps them alive for the 2.5 seconds it takes for the armor to kick in. I've saved countless ships and won close fights because of it. The oddball raven/drake pilot in an armor gang also greatly appreciates it. It won't keep them up forever but it keeps them up longer.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.02.26 07:30:00 -
[15]
The archon is easily the best carrier for almost all situations. if you had a choise, that would be it. -----------
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Iam Widdershins
rock lobster mining guild
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Posted - 2011.02.26 07:46:00 -
[16]
What Rothgar said. The man knows what he's talking about.
Don't concern yourself over the ability of a carrier to rep both armor or shields unless you haven't even trained for one yet. You should be fitting it for one or the other, situationally.
And don't forget that the Nidhoggur has a 5% bonus per level to the effectiveness of reps. It's really a very good ship, and shouldn't be knocked.
Originally by: RagingRifter 3 of 4 moms are armo fit. 3 of 4 titans are armor fit.
No, half of them are. If you are fitting a Ragnarok or a Hel with an armor tank, you are doing it very wrong indeed.
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