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T2 Ship Invention and Profit

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Carvan Blake	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:34:00 - [1] So I've recently been trying my hand at invention and have been pretty lucky thus far, numerous t2 interceptor BPCs have come out of the oven ready for action. Now, my production efficiency skill is at 5 so I thought I'd try and manufacture a few of these ships, 3 to be precise. However, when I came to do this, I suddenly found that the material requirements for each ship increased hugely, thanks to the wastage factor of the BPC. My questions are as follows: Is there actually any profit in constructing t2 ships? Is there a way to reduce wastage and if so, how? Should I just stick to module invention? :) Thanks in advance.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:40:00 - [2] The ME of the BPC can only be affected by the use of Decryptors. Due to the expense of these it's generally not recommended to use them on anything but ships, and even with ships you should run the math to see how bad it hurts the bottom line. There is money to be made in T2 ships, even without decryptors. The keys are getting materials off buy orders, and being prepared for slower sale in remote regions that allow for greater markups. Sticking to modules..? Why not do both?
ChaoticDemon	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:45:00 - [3] Also building all your own components with perfect bpo's helps but need to do the math not all ships are worth building
Drexit	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:30:00 - [4] The answer has nothing to do with building your own components from perfect bpcs, or buying components from buy orders. Those things may be profitable, but those are different areas of interest. Ultimately, you have to do the math to determine which interceptors are profitable to build, using lowest sell order prices, including the invention cost of BPCs, datacores, and failures during multiple repetition. Making your interceptors "profitable" by purchasing components from buy orders is simply a success in trading, not a success in manufacturing. As an example, I show a crusader as extremely unprofitable. Its currently selling for 10 mil in Jita (can that be right) but costs almost 15m to invent and build.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Carvan Blake Is there actually any profit in constructing t2 ships ? Yes, but not all. You have to do the math for each ship individually. Or get one of the calculators or spreadsheets that do the math for you after you fill in the appropriate prices. Frigates seldom yield decent profits, the most likely to be most profitable are exhumers and HACs (whichever have a high volume demand). Quote: Is there a way to reduce wastage and if so, how? Should I just stick to module invention? The only way to affect ME of the output BPC is the use of decryptors in the invention process, but not all decryptors are helpful on all ship sizes. In fact, for frigates, usually using a decryptor ends up costing you more than not using any decryptors at all. Originally by: ChaoticDemon Also building all your own components with perfect bpo's helps but need to do the math not all ships are worth building That's not an accurate representation of what happens. You're masking a lower (or lack) of profitability in invention + invented T2 BPC manufacture by merging it with something else that's usually profitable (manufacture of T2 components). If manufacturing T2 components is overall more profitable than inventing and building some T2 ships, why even bother to do that, just build more T2 components instead. If inventing and building T2 ships is more profitable, don't keep slots busy with T2 component manufacture, just buy them instead and keep building whatever T2 stuff you were building. Under almost no circumstances does "also building your own components" make more sense than doing just one of those things. The only exceptions are in case either you can't find any on the market or nobody would buy any on the market, in which case you can't focus on just one of the activities. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.02 20:50:00 - [6] Edited by: VaMei on 02/03/2011 20:51:12 Originally by: Drexit Making your interceptors "profitable" by purchasing components from buy orders is simply a success in trading, not a success in manufacturing. QFT If the only way you can profitably build something is to get the materials from buy orders or haul it in from other areas, then you would likely do as well or better to just re-sell those materials. If you're counting on selling in low volumes from remote locations to get your profits, then you would likely do as well or better to just buy finished goods from undervalued markets and transport them to your target market. When the lemmings are forming lines to do more work for less profit, don't join them; help them give you their profits.
Lynx Australis	Posted - 2011.03.02 23:42:00 - [7] First find profitable target item for invention with your skills. Then do like 100 invention jobs and manufacture them and sell out. But don't invest too much on the items needed for manufacturing at once, it might be painfull to see if sudden price changes kills your profit. That's how you can do invention without any need for trading. Hardest part is the finding profitable item. Sure marging grows if you do trading to get your items for invention and manufacturing, but it gets much harder again.
Lynx Australis	Posted - 2011.03.02 23:44:00 - [8] Originally by: VaMei If you're counting on selling in low volumes from remote locations to get your profits, then you would likely do as well or better to just buy finished goods from undervalued markets and transport them to your target market. Very wise words.
Carvan Blake	Posted - 2011.03.03 00:35:00 - [9] Very useful feedback here guys, I appreciate it. I'm taking what you've said in so I'll see how I can swing things in the future. From reading around a little, I have just one final question. People mention doing large scale invention jobs, i.e. getting 100 or so blueprints at a time, but how are they doing this when maximum skills only allows for 11 at a time? Alts and POSs? Thanks again.
Linda Shadowborn Gallente Dark Steel Industries	Posted - 2011.03.03 03:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Carvan Blake From reading around a little, I have just one final question. People mention doing large scale invention jobs, i.e. getting 100 or so blueprints at a time, but how are they doing this when maximum skills only allows for 11 at a time? Alts and POSs? Thanks again. Pretty much, a few slave alts that just do research and copying.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.03.03 07:12:00 - [11] Edited by: Akita T on 03/03/2011 07:15:37 Originally by: Carvan Blake People mention doing large scale invention jobs, i.e. getting 100 or so blueprints at a time, but how are they doing this when maximum skills only allows for 11 at a time? Not "at the same time", but "right after eachother". In other words, having enough funds to support the start of enough jobs so that most of the randomness is washed out by the law of large numbers, in order to minimize the effect of "luck" in your invention-related business. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente Halinallen veroparatiisi Inglorious Carebears	Posted - 2011.03.03 07:21:00 - [12] I've done some inventions (frigs) and thing I don't like is that invention which can make the ship very very expensive. With this I mean that you make 10 inventions and one succeeds. That's one costly print. As I'm no manufacturer a friend of mine said that he can build them for me. I wasn't going to sell them. They were just being built for my own use (3x ishkurs). I did set up the buy orders for the materials and wanted the cheapest possible prices from the hub (amarr). In the end it took probably a month or even more to get all the materials needed. I wasn't "too" busy with changing the buy orders, but one could say I changed the price at least 1-2 times a day on average (some days 10-times, hangover days none..). Still, it took it's bloody time. Overall I counted that it was about 5mil cheaper than to "just buy it". I can't remember though if that 5mil "profit" came from a single ship or all three of them. Not to mention that i didn't count the failed inventions into it. Lot of effort and in the end it just doesn't feel profitable enough. I also did try to check if there is a market of selling T2 BPO's (not originals...), but there wasn't any movement. Now I'm only selling the datacores i get from my r&d agents. Thus nothing goes to failures and people buy them. Is it more profitable? No, but with all the time saved...you can run a lot of missions. Not mention that 2-3 good missions have already beated the profit on t2 frigs for a looongg time. My advice...go higher. Perhaps T2 cruisers or something mining wise Or even better stick to modules. Far less materials (easier to buy, faster also), invention rate is higher (if i remember correctly), people buy more modules and the production times are faster. Originally by: CCP Shadow Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
ChaoticDemon	Posted - 2011.03.03 07:38:00 - [13] It depends on the ship also there are the I mined it etc so its free people who mess up prices for everyone can also be people dumping stock that won't sell also can have a string of luck good or bad that makes costs go to almost nothing or sky high for invention
Maria Yumeno Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.03 10:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Carvan Blake Is there actually any profit in constructing t2 ships ? Yes, but not all. You have to do the math for each ship individually. Or get one of the calculators or spreadsheets that do the math for you after you fill in the appropriate prices. Frigates seldom yield decent profits, the most likely to be most profitable are exhumers and HACs (whichever have a high volume demand). Quote: Is there a way to reduce wastage and if so, how? Should I just stick to module invention? The only way to affect ME of the output BPC is the use of decryptors in the invention process, but not all decryptors are helpful on all ship sizes. In fact, for frigates, usually using a decryptor ends up costing you more than not using any decryptors at all. Originally by: ChaoticDemon Also building all your own components with perfect bpo's helps but need to do the math not all ships are worth building That's not an accurate representation of what happens. You're masking a lower (or lack) of profitability in invention + invented T2 BPC manufacture by merging it with something else that's usually profitable (manufacture of T2 components). If manufacturing T2 components is overall more profitable than inventing and building some T2 ships, why even bother to do that, just build more T2 components instead. If inventing and building T2 ships is more profitable, don't keep slots busy with T2 component manufacture, just buy them instead and keep building whatever T2 stuff you were building. Under almost no circumstances does "also building your own components" make more sense than doing just one of those things. The only exceptions are in case either you can't find any on the market or nobody would buy any on the market, in which case you can't focus on just one of the activities. While this is correct many people will build the t2 components themselves and then build the ship in order to increase "sellability" (is that even a word?) While you can sometimes make more isk by buying to t2 minerals, creating the components then selling those than you can by selling ships, this method requires a lot more time spent 0.01 isking. If you are someone who wants to do as little work as possible, then running a whole chain is actually easier in my experience.
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.03.03 11:03:00 - [15] invention .... is best on the BIG scale i.e. get a few prints and do bulk coping at a POS, then do bulk invention jobs [even for ships] but the most important thing is to work out the costs - for everything and factor those in. -- Join BIG
ZeeOhSix The Graduates	Posted - 2011.03.03 17:44:00 - [16] I've been dabbling here myself and finding that it can be profitable - but as noted profitability and saleability varys dramatically ship-to-ship. For example, I found a few ships that had almost 30% margins...but very low sales volume. And others that had high sales volume...that I could build for a 2.3% loss :) There are sweet spots - but you're not going to get them any other way than 'doing the math'. The other note is that it takes fairly significant chunks of ISK to make a go of this such that a bad invention run doesn't clean you out. I'm spending almost 2B/week in materials with a nice turn...but I had a bad invention run that just about shut me down and I had to reduce my output to rebuild capital. I'm still exploring expanding the supply chanin to component production; I hear both sides of the arguement, but I think I'll need to "work the numbers" for myself The business of EVE is business!
Gindar Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:13:00 - [17] A few questions: 1. What about just buying a bpc off of contracts? Is it ever still possible to make a profit? 2. What is your preferred calculator for finding highest profitability? 3. With the fluctuation in prices, does profitability for making modules / ships change daily or weekly? ------------------------- Life is strange.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Gindar 1. What about just buying a bpc off of contracts? Is it ever still possible to make a profit? Not much if any profit in T2 BPC, but I often buy T1 BPC for invention if the price is right. Quote: 2. What is your preferred calculator for finding highest profitability? OpenOffice Calc Quote: 3. With the fluctuation in prices, does profitability for making modules / ships change daily or weekly? Yes.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.03.04 00:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Quote: 3. With the fluctuation in prices, does profitability for making modules / ships change daily or weekly? Yes. It's worth mentioning that the prices of materials and products don't follow the same curve. They're frequently offset in my experience. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Princess Strawberry	Posted - 2011.03.04 01:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tau Cabalander Quote: 3. With the fluctuation in prices, does profitability for making modules / ships change daily or weekly? Yes. It's worth mentioning that the prices of materials and products don't follow the same curve. They're frequently offset in my experience. -Liang I did an analysis, not of ships but Cap Recharger IIs, here. Each of the 4 categories of materials followed their own trend dictated by what has been happening in-game, overall the actual costs involved changed only marginally over a 6 month period, the various changes in costs ultimately balancing out. Prices of the end product fluctuated quite significantly, with no obvious trend (probably more related to traders influencing the market than anything else, but that's not something I can back up with any hard facts). -------------------------------- http://eveonomics.blogspot.com/

Licinius CrassusFilius Space Construction and Research	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:45:00 - [21] EVEHQ has an invention calculator plug-in that I find very useful. Akita T also posted a great T2 invention sheet a while ago. Yes, there is profit constructing T2 ships. Specifically, a couple of interceptors, recons and HACs are profitable. At the high end, jump freighters and occasionally marauders can be profitable but you have to be careful when you time your sale. Some T2 components actually sell at a loss, while others are profitable. Linky to a google docs sheet that analyses this below. T2 Component Manufacture
Cyniac Gallente Twilight Star Rangers	Posted - 2011.03.04 09:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: ChaoticDemon Also building all your own components with perfect bpo's helps but need to do the math not all ships are worth building That's not an accurate representation of what happens. You're masking a lower (or lack) of profitability in invention + invented T2 BPC manufacture by merging it with something else that's usually profitable (manufacture of T2 components). If manufacturing T2 components is overall more profitable than inventing and building some T2 ships, why even bother to do that, just build more T2 components instead. If inventing and building T2 ships is more profitable, don't keep slots busy with T2 component manufacture, just buy them instead and keep building whatever T2 stuff you were building. Under almost no circumstances does "also building your own components" make more sense than doing just one of those things. The only exceptions are in case either you can't find any on the market or nobody would buy any on the market, in which case you can't focus on just one of the activities. To just put some context on this - in my neck of the woods (nowhere near a trade hub) ships sell well, and components sell quite poorly. I've had some bulk agreements with suppliers of POS reaction materials which worked well, but selling T2 components was not viable (no real market volume) so I turned it all into ships and modules to sell the stuff (which was always profitable in itself, though the margins were smaller than the T2 component stuff) so it was all about packaging the T2 components in a nice and shiny ship for the happy customers to go out and get them blown away - at which point they would come back and get another. There is another consideration which is when you are not producing on a per-profit consideration only but are also providing logistical/manufacturing support to your corp, its then at times quite easy to increase the throughput of the manufacturing chains which you are running anyhow.
Ikserak tai	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:10:00 - [23] I've made T2 ships primarily for personal/corporate use, and somewhat enjoyed the challenge of manufacturing the components, buying the raw materials at the lowest price, and inventing the BPC. Or I could have saved a lot of time just buying the ship on the open market, and doing some level 4s to get the Isk to pay for it. When you include the cost of skillbooks you need, the time spent training, plus the cost of component BP's, it does become a rather costly pursuit as the fixed costs of all this are not really recoverable. You learn a lot about markets and you become familiar with the price fluctuations and gain the ability to sniff out a good deal when you see one. You become a better player and have more options to make Isk in another fashion, and ultimately stave off the boredom of being limited to missions and ratting. Bottom line is that you won't get rich doing T2 manufacture, but you'll probably enjoy the time you spend doing everything that is required. YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia	Posted - 2011.03.08 06:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Akita T If manufacturing T2 components is overall more profitable than inventing and building some T2 ships, why even bother to do that, just build more T2 components instead. If inventing and building T2 ships is more profitable, don't keep slots busy with T2 component manufacture, just buy them instead and keep building whatever T2 stuff you were building. Under almost no circumstances does "also building your own components" make more sense than doing just one of those things. The only exceptions are in case either you can't find any on the market or nobody would buy any on the market, in which case you can't focus on just one of the activities. I think the components are, almost by definition, more volatile than a ship (which is essentially a basket of components). This might be enough to make it worth it for new manufacturers to choose the less profitable option (the ship) to avoid the risk of going broke or having liquidity issues.
AstarothPrime	Posted - 2011.03.08 10:46:00 - [25] If you cant profit (atleast 25%) like this: - make your own BPC - buy cores in jita @ sell order price ... invent ... - buy mats in jita @ sell order price ... manufacture ... - sell product in jita @ buy order price ... then you should prolly do trading instead of inventing. OFC you could allways try combining buy / sell orders and maximising your profit since you are stretching your brain to do it anyways... Basically on stuffz i invent i can make ~30% on pure orders, and around 40% on realistic buy / sell orders with less then a day of waiting to complete. Regards I.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.08 11:26:00 - [26] Edited by: Corozan Aspinall on 08/03/2011 11:31:34 I make 1,000,000 scourge fury missiles a month with this character. PI I do provides all the rocket fuel. I buy the mins from jita at sell order prices. T2 BPC's I invent in NPC stations. Datacores I get half from my research agent and half from the market in Jita. I make 560m a month min. 500, 000 sfm @ Jita buy is about 280m. Repeat twice a month. Free play plus a lil' extra to spend on pew pew. edit: wrong amount of missiles missa jones! d'oh. ---------------------------------- This character is for sale. 6 days 23 hrs remaining. b/o 5.4bn.


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