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AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 16:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I got the idea for this question from the "tanky hauler" thread earlier - interesting discussion there but that seems geared for higher-SP types....
As new players, we constantly hear chatter about getting ganked, either for tears or for ganker profit. I'm guessing that the only thing to be done about the griefer types is to stay aware and maintain insurance. However, there's clearly a profit motive for the other type.
So, what methods do experienced traders recommend for avoiding profit-based ganks? Basic assumptions would be low-SP pilots, flying basic industrial hauler ships, and moving cargo to/from trade hubs.
Do you use specific rules like:
-never carry any cargo worth more than ??? ISK
-always use WCS over expanded cargoholds
-ensure you have ??? amount of EHP (my current method - mount most/biggest shield extenders I can afford)
-just use cheap haulers and factor losses into cost of doing business
If this question has been asked multiple times and somebody has a good link with some recommendations, I'm sure young traders would appreciate it....
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Sigras
Conglomo
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
182
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Posted - 2012.08.25 16:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
a good rule of thumb for haulers is to make sure that 1/2 your cargo is worth less isk than it would take to blow up your ship.
given that the most popular ship for suicide ganking is the tornado, just divide your EHP by 22,932 which is how much damage a tornado is going to do in a .5 system before dieing to concord (two volleys). That will give you the number of tornadoes needed to gank you.
simply multiply by the cost of a tornado + fittings (111 million or so) and multiply by 2 and you have the max safe cargo to haul in that ship.
Remember, this is just a rule of thumb and will not stop anyone ganking just for fun, so take it with a grain of salt.
In high sec, there is literally no way to avoid a gank, there is no fitting you can make, no protection you can take, they will ship scan you to figure out your fit and kill you, and if youre worth enough, theyll just gank your protection fleet first.
That being said, the most common way people avoid ganks is to appear unprofitable, most players do this by putting their items in a "secure container" like a general freight container or a giant secure can; then courier contracting it to themselves using an alt.
This causes a courier package with a can inside of it to show up on cargo scan, but it cannot see inside the secure container. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
309
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 16:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
[quote=
In high sec, there is literally no way to avoid a gank, there is no fitting you can make, no protection you can take, they will ship scan you to figure out your fit and kill you, and if youre worth enough, theyll just gank your protection fleet first.
[/quote]
Blockade runner |
AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 16:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
The idea of courier contract sounds good. I'll have to give that a shot.
Derath, I'm not sure what you mean by "blockade runner" - can you explain if that's an option for a low-SP trader pilot? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
310
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Posted - 2012.08.25 18:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
AnnaBelle Bartlet wrote:The idea of courier contract sounds good. I'll have to give that a shot.
Derath, I'm not sure what you mean by "blockade runner" - can you explain if that's an option for a low-SP trader pilot?
I meant it as a counter to the quoted statement. A properly flown blockade runner is virtually uncatchable in high or low sec.
When I started an alt account it was the first ship my alt trained for. |
Sigras
Conglomo
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
182
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Posted - 2012.08.25 18:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
I suppose thats true, a properly flown viator/prowler/crane/prorator could do it.
I was thinking AFK hauling when I said what I said, but yes i see your point. |
Pipa Porto
831
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 18:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sigras wrote:a
That being said, the most common way people avoid ganks is to appear unprofitable, most players do this by putting their items in a "secure container" like a general freight container or a giant secure can; then courier contracting it to themselves using an alt.
This causes a courier package with a can inside of it to show up on cargo scan, but it cannot see inside the secure container.
The problem with this is that, unless you're in something expensive to gank like a Freighter, there are still people who will roll the dice, hoping for the double-wrapper to be worth something.
Best option: Courier Contract to someone else, and let them take the risk.
Second best: Orca + Corp Hangar
Third best: Ship it in small enough loads that you're not worth ganking.
Fourth Best: Double Wrap it (biggest reason it works in freighters is the prevalence of RF/Push etc pilots using contract handling alts, so tons of chaff)
Fifth Best (and, judging by the kbs, a very popular option): Cross your fingers?
Anyway, if it's a small cargo, a Covops or a Recon (Recons can put up great shield tanks) can be great.
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Alyssa SaintCroix
Leihkasse Stammheim
31
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Posted - 2012.08.25 18:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
My general rule of thumb is 75-100% of the value of the ship. In other words, don't be one of those people that ends up on eve-kill.net hauling 10-14billion isk worth of stuff in a freighter through a common gank pipe. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
944
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Posted - 2012.08.25 19:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
I recently hauled over a billion ISK in a rookie ship, from Amarr to Jita.
I knew it was stupid, but I also knew that unless there was an fast locker at a gate, I was unlikely to be caught, so I knowingly took the risk. [EDIT: I also didn't warp directly to Jita 4-4, as I didn't want to be at one of the standard warp-ins, so I instead warped from moon 5.]
Yesterday, I hauled about 750 modules worth under 2 billion, and which occupied very little space in a Charon freighter. I did the trip AFK on autopilot. I used the freighter for the 28 or so jumps, because I knew it would be on autopilot.
I basically just ask myself, "Would I gank me?", and if the answer is "yes", then I take steps to counter it. |
AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 20:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thank you all for your responses. They provided some useful insight.
Also raised some new questions, but those are for another thread....
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Roman Fuego
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.25 23:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I recently hauled over a billion ISK in a rookie ship, from Amarr to Jita.
I knew it was stupid, but I also knew that unless there was an fast locker at a gate, I was unlikely to be caught, so I knowingly took the risk. [EDIT: I also didn't warp directly to Jita 4-4, as I didn't want to be at one of the standard warp-ins, so I instead warped from another moon / planet.]
Yesterday, I hauled about 750 modules worth under 2 billion, and which occupied very little space in a Charon freighter. I did the trip AFK on autopilot. I used the freighter for the 28 or so jumps, because I knew it would be on autopilot.
I basically just ask myself, "Would I gank me?", and if the answer is "yes", then I take steps to counter it.
The one additional question to ask is.... How would I go about ganking myself...
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AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
0
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Posted - 2012.08.26 00:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tau, it's interesting that you posed that particular notion, considering that a low-SP ganker build was the subject of another thought I had. My original question involved low-SP hauler pilot and some of the responses involved higher-SP options for hauling and ganking.
My follow-on question involved how an opponent might build a low-SP/low value ship ganker toon, rather than blowing up a 100+M ISK Tornado and his security status. I thought such a question belonged on a different forum category, but just had not decided where to post.
I would have no objection if somebody chose to post their thoughts in this thread, though.
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
194
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Posted - 2012.08.26 01:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lets take, Jita 0.9 security system and a Perfect Charon Pilot, with all applicable implants, EHP should be about 200K EHP.
To Gank 200K EHP you would need, to apply roughly 200K damage (your more then welcome to break your head doing exact math for us if you want to troll me, please)
Curently, the favorite method for .7 systems and higher security is, Tornado (fully fitted roughly 80-100M isk) with a volley of about 14K per ship.
and .06-.07 security, Talos, roughly 80-110M fully fitted, with a pretty nasty point blank DPS of about 1500, or roughly 10-20 seconds times 1500 DPS for 15K-30K damage before concord wacks ya!
So, 200/14= 13-15 Nado's (estimated total cost to fund these ships = 1.3B isk
200/22.5 = bout 7-10 Talos's estimated cost to fund these ships bout 800M ISK
Now, generally a freighter, should yield about zero to 150M isk in Salvage with perfect skills so, we have 75M expected Salvage just from the dead Hull.
Each T3 BC yields about 50% fitting drops and about 10M isk salvage, so we have about 12.5M isk in Drops and 10M isk in Salvage from the dead Battlecruiser.
In short:
14 Nado's salvaged and looted = 315M isk plus 75M from charon hull for 390M isk total recovered from a 1.3B investment ganking an empty hull.
8 Talos bout 280M recovered from 800M investment
So, total cost to Gank a freighter in Nado's = 910M isk loss
Talos 520M isk Loss (EDIT)- 75M isk = 445M isk Loss
Now that we got that outa the way, lets move onto Where to set limits on freight in Hold.
We all know, loot and cargo drops about 50% of the time and 50% is destroyed, so we simply multiply 910M isk times 2 for .7-1.0 system hauling or 520M isk times 2 for .05 - .6 system hauling.
In short:
In a Charon, you can carry 1.8B isk in goods in hold in .7-1.0 systems and (EDITED)~800M isk in goods for .5 -.6 systems Safelly.
If you understood all of that, then you can easily aply the math to other ships EHP etc, just incase if my math isnt Perfect. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
946
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Posted - 2012.08.26 07:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
AnnaBelle Bartlet wrote:Tau, it's interesting that you posed that particular notion, considering that a low-SP ganker build was the subject of another thought I had. My original question involved low-SP hauler pilot and some of the responses involved higher-SP options for hauling and ganking.
My follow-on question involved how an opponent might build a low-SP/low value ship ganker toon, rather than blowing up a 100+M ISK Tornado and his security status. I thought such a question belonged on a different forum category, but just had not decided where to post.
I would have no objection if somebody chose to post their thoughts in this thread, though.
Most industrials have somewhere between zero and none for tank, so it really doesn't take much more than a destroyer with a cargo scanner, and an alt with a hauler to scoop the loot, to get a significant payday.
Far too many people AFK haul, and that is usually the kiss of death. Keep in mind that many of those Tornados are AFK as well, so you don't want to give them enough time to wake-up. Plus when it comes to things like freighters, they can simply keep bumping the ship out of alignment until their friends arrive.
About the only ships that have a chance are not low-skill: Orca (corporate hangar can't be scanned), Freighters, Deep Space Transports, and Blockade Runners (covert).
One of my favorite haulers (requires Amarr Frigate 2, and EVERYBODY should already have that trained for Amarr Industrial 1, to pilot a Bestower = the largest low-skill industrial, which takes less than half a day to train for)
[Magnate, Hauler (1009 m3)]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Cargohold Optimization I
Small Cargohold Optimization I
Small Cargohold Optimization I |
LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
1
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
I used to make good isk doing courier runs, and I used the following general guidelines to do it safely:
* Any ship can be ganked - so the only real defense is to deter the other side from trying
* Use the right ship for the job!!!! The biggest mistake most newbies make is using their iteron or other basic industrial for everything.....
* In general, if I'm going into wormhole space or lowsec -- the only somewhat acceptable ship is the viator for hauling, and even then you have to be careful.
* For tiny amounts of cargo, there isn't any reason to not use a cruiser or BC (especially cargo focused ones)... most gankers pay less attention to low-end mission ships for ganking although if you come in with a faction fit high end mission ship, you may get a lookie.
* Balance the fit of your haulers....don't just automatically put cargo expanders and cargo rigs on, find the weak spots in the EHP for the ship...add a shield anti-em rig for some, hull or armor strengtheners for others, usually reserve 1-2 mid spots for additional tanking
* Know what the generally accepted max values for each ship type....basic industrials generally shouldn't carry more than 100M, advanced industrials probably not more than 250M, and freighters not more than 1B, I'm not sure what the generally recommended limit of the orca is.
* Avoid autopilot when you can, might be OK sometimes in 0.6 or higher systems, never in 0.5 -- autopilot is just waving a "gank me" sign on yourself.
* Identify the 0.5 systems that you can avoid and which you can't, know that most of the unavoidable ones are camped and you'll be cargo scanned going through them
* Your safe in warp...so if possible, work on increasing your agility and getting to warp faster.
* Train up all your sheild/armor tanking and navigation skills
* On some ships, it might also be worth having warp stabilizers on...but usually its better to fit for tank, speed, or cargo mods
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AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
0
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Posted - 2012.08.26 11:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:AnnaBelle Bartlet wrote:Tau, it's interesting that you posed that particular notion, considering that a low-SP ganker build was the subject of another thought I had. My original question involved low-SP hauler pilot and some of the responses involved higher-SP options for hauling and ganking.
My follow-on question involved how an opponent might build a low-SP/low value ship ganker toon, rather than blowing up a 100+M ISK Tornado and his security status. I thought such a question belonged on a different forum category, but just had not decided where to post.
I would have no objection if somebody chose to post their thoughts in this thread, though. Most industrials have somewhere between zero and none for tank, so it really doesn't take much more than a destroyer with a cargo scanner, and an alt with a hauler to scoop the loot, to get a significant payday. Far too many people AFK haul, and that is usually the kiss of death. Keep in mind that many of those Tornados are AFK as well, so you don't want to give them enough time to wake-up. Plus when it comes to things like freighters, they can simply keep bumping the ship out of alignment until their friends arrive. About the only ships that have a chance are not low-skill: Orca (corporate hangar can't be scanned), Freighters, Deep Space Transports, and Blockade Runners (covert). One of my favorite haulers (requires Amarr Frigate 2, and EVERYBODY should already have that trained for Amarr Industrial 1, to pilot a Bestower = the largest low-skill industrial, which takes less than half a day to train for) [Magnate, Hauler (1009 m3)] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Cargohold Optimization I Small Cargohold Optimization I Small Cargohold Optimization I
What is the particular appeal for that Magnate build? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
311
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm not sure what people consider "low skill" but none of the industrial haulers are terribly high sp ships. Granted there are plenty of support skills that make every ship truly shine. But you can go from zero to acceptable blockade runner in 37 days. And from zero to freighter in about 34 days. Given that both are on the same path you can get both in under 2 months.
This is being able to fully fit and rig a viator with covert cloak and mods worthy of high or low sec.
Gallente freighter 3 and evasive maneuvering 4. It won't have the max cargo or the fastest align. But it works. You would likely be able to fly it before you can afford it.
Orca is a different story. But totally worth it. |
MushroomMushroom
Consolidated Sprocket
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 14:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kara Books, your analysis does not consider the risk of opportunists/counter greifers messing with the gankers plans. Doesn't take much to suicide a freightor wreck and deprive the gankers of all the loot/salvage. Likewise there are going to be others trying to grab loot out of both the freightor and gank wrecks. |
AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
0
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Posted - 2012.08.26 14:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
MushroomMushroom wrote:Kara Books, your analysis does not consider the risk of opportunists/counter greifers messing with the gankers plans. Doesn't take much to suicide a freightor wreck and deprive the gankers of all the loot/salvage. Likewise there are going to be others trying to grab loot out of both the freightor and gank wrecks. There are a few systems where the vast majority of ganks takes place, so its easy for an opportunist to find ganks.
How does one determine where these ganks are taking place? |
YuuKnow
412
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Posted - 2012.08.26 14:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
My method is to always use either a Orca's with valuable cargo in the unscannable 'corp hangers' hold, or a freighter with a 'double wrap' making it unscannable.
yk |
Tarendar
Sparkle Pony Inc
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
10
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Posted - 2012.08.26 17:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Everybody times the death of the ganker to how long it takes for Concord to show up...
For a single individual flying a T3 BC or destroyer, which is by far the most common thing, what gets them is the gate guns. This is significant because even in 0.5, you get six gate guns doing over 1000 dps... a destroyer lasts less than five seconds, a T3 battlecruiser less than ten. Most Tornados get off ONE shot, not two. This means that an industrial with shield extenders can survive gank attempts handily.
When I was still doing Jita runs in a Mammoth, I got to watch no fewer than seventeen Tornados blow up after completely failing to kill me... and the fact that I *saw* some of them blow means that it was gate guns that made the kill, not Concord. (Align time in a Mammoth is less than Concord response time in 0.5.) The one that finally got me was flying a Hurricane, which had enough tank to get off three volleys. |
Pipa Porto
837
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Posted - 2012.08.26 23:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
AnnaBelle Bartlet wrote:MushroomMushroom wrote:Kara Books, your analysis does not consider the risk of opportunists/counter greifers messing with the gankers plans. Doesn't take much to suicide a freightor wreck and deprive the gankers of all the loot/salvage. Likewise there are going to be others trying to grab loot out of both the freightor and gank wrecks. There are a few systems where the vast majority of ganks takes place, so its easy for an opportunist to find ganks. How does one determine where these ganks are taking place?
http://eve-kill.net/
EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Katalci
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
126
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Posted - 2012.08.28 12:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Use a cloaky t3 for small, highly valuable things like officer mods. |
Sunrise Omega
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2012.08.28 12:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
Or the simple rule, 3-4M ISK per 1k EHP for small haulers, 5-6M ISK per 1k EHP for haulers with at least 100k EHP.
Which puts freighters at around 1B ISK of cargo for safety against profit-minded pirates in 0.5-0.7 space. T1 industrials with only 8k EHP of tank should stay in the 20-30M range.
You can go 2x to 3x higher if you:
- Have a scout who is checking d-scan 1-2 jumps ahead at each gate
- Have a corp buddy who can web-sling your freighter for faster transit
- Don't auto-pilot
- Avoid the more dangerous systems (Sivala, Perimeter, etc) which are commonly camped
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
948
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 15:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
AnnaBelle Bartlet wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:[Magnate, Hauler (1009 m3)]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Cargohold Optimization I
Small Cargohold Optimization I
Small Cargohold Optimization I What is the particular appeal for that Magnate build?
Frigates are small (takes longer to target), cheap, and FAST. The Magnate being a probe ship has a large cargo hold (moon probes are huge), and it being an Amarr ship means it has 3 low slots for cargo expanders (Heron = 1, Imicus = 2, Probe = 2).
One could even fit an Improved Cloaking Device to navigate through lowsec relatively easily, but that often isn't necessary. |
Castina
The Church of Robotology
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 17:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fly between trade hubs. It'll be the .5 systems. |
Ditra Vorthran
State War Academy
Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 21:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
If you two accounts, you can always try a couple tricks.
First if the double webber trick where you initiate warp with your hauling ship with one character and then you web him with your alt, catapulting your hauler into warp almost instantly. This is most often done with slow to warp freighters.
Second, you can follow along in a logistics ship (Osprey, Basilisk, etc.). If someone starts trying to gank you, start repping. Even if they turn on your repping ship and destroy it, chances are it'll be worth less than whatever you're carrying.
"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Richard Chancellor
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.07 09:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Or you can always use freight services for moving your cargo. In the worst case you'll stay with your money. |
Bennet Am
Seekers of Oblivion
5
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Posted - 2012.09.09 14:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think it is worth mentioning that you should also pay attention to the time of day you do certain things. I avoid moving expensive items on the weekends and during peak times. If I have stuff to move I'll get up a little early and move it while the systems are relatively dead. Use DOTLAN to figure this out.
I also use the contacts system to track potential gankers on my routes. For example if one guy is parked on the inbound side and then three more guys are parked on the outbound side I set them all to orange. If they are still on the gates when I leave I'll look at their corps and alliances to see if I need to set those to orange.
This works in my part of space, I'm sure in busy places it would be less workable. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
337
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 14:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
for small volumes at peak times, use a shuttle or nano rifter. noone is wasting time on those if there are juicier targets around.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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