EVE Search - [Mandate] Tiericide

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Assembly Hall

[Mandate] Tiericide

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.06 00:46:00 - [1] Edited by: Val''Dore on 06/03/2011 00:55:39 Originally by: Original Concept Thread The odd name for this thread basically means Killing the Tier System. Pros and Cons of the current tier system for tech I ships: Pros None Cons Obsoletes nearly half the Tech I ship lineup simply by existing Arbitrarily dictates ship build cost Impacts balance excessively Has no logical basis I see several ways to go about committing tiericide: Reduce all class appropriate skill requirements to lvl 1 (the skill that affects the bonuses) Change material cost to be based on mass (Tech 1 only) Adjust hp, cap, and fitting values to be more normalized Make the ship bonuses and slots be the differentiating factors Tweak individual ships to be more unique if there is excessive overlap Possibly add role bonuses to each ship to further define them (such as the Omen's could be 50% optimal range, Caracal's might be 25% shield resist, Stabber's could be 50% webifier range, etc) Any thoughts? Link to Original Thread Addendums to be added. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.06 01:12:00 - [2] Reserved for Addendums ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.06 12:07:00 - [3] Originally by: Scatim Helicon I sort of agree, but I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle. The problem that needs fixing is that a whole bunch of the available T1 ships are worthless garbage, the fact that CCP decided to make some of them worthless garbage as some quirk of a tier system is rather beside the point (and really, there's a number of higher-tier ships that are worthless garbage as well). I agree that basing varied material costs and skill requirements on the tier system is fairly pointless, but tweaks to the actual attributes of each ship should be done on the basis of making that individual ship useful and balanced, not as part of a drive to remove tiering. Half a thumbs up, I guess. It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.06 21:45:00 - [4] Most of the rebalance is native to dumping tiers. Further tweaking would be warranted or not on an individual hull basis. I'm sure CCP is better than any of us at planning out what they are spending dev time on. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.07 04:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi Originally by: Sahmul Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier" lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is? You must be one of those who think one ship should do everything, rather than using the correct ship for the purpose. Quote: Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game. What a foolishly ignorant statement. Quote: Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it. The skill system would need exactly zero changes related to removing tier. Quote: It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay. Not your call to make.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.07 16:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Bagehi Frigates are fun. People use T1 frigates from time to time no matter their SP. T1 cruisers... not so much. Honestly, the only people who use T1 cruisers are people who haven't yet trained BC or T2 cruisers. Most people blow through the T1 cruiser phase in less than a month. Most people get to BSes as fast as the skill system allows, that doesn't mean that is the smart thing to do. Quote: As such, in the grand scheme of things, rebalancing ships that are rarely used isn't worth the time or effort right now. The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen. Quote: Battleship tiers make sense. No they don't, but I'll bite the bait anyway: Why? Quote: T2 cruisers could use a bit of rebalancing (but not terribly important either right now). Nothing is terribly important right now, but T2 are not part of this topic either way. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.07 22:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Val'Dore The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen. No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all. They go hand in hand I spose. You can't have a tier system and have balance too. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:16:00 - [8] Exactly, most of the evidence of the tier system are the inherent imbalances, so by nuking the tier system, we nuke the imbalances. So you are right. We just need more thumbs up posts. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.09 19:22:00 - [9] There has to be more detractors or something that can say their piece. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.10 01:57:00 - [10] Right, however currently, all of that is arbitrary and unrelated to role or mass. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide

Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.13 03:21:00 - [11] Shameless Bump. Where are the freakin trolls? ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.20 01:35:00 - [12] I wouldn't call an 80 to 150% price difference nothing. It may be chump change to us, but the price differentiation is significant. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.21 03:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Dark Drifter Originally by: Val'Dore It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger. maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range this is the thinking Which is the problem, some of those ships are pregimped by the tier system. The Omen does good theoretical DPS, but it fails at the actual application of DPS. The Prophecy and Maller both fill a niche role that really doesn't need so many ships in it. If the Proph had 8 turrets, it might be viable with no dmg bonus. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.21 06:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Vance Black The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships. They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded. Quote: Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise? I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.24 03:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Vance Black Originally by: Val'Dore Originally by: Vance Black The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships. They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded. Quote: Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise? I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means. Iteration means the act of repeating a process usually with the aim of approaching a desired goal or target or result. Each repetition of the process is also called an "iteration," and the results of one iteration are used as the starting point for the next iteration. CCP Tuxford rebalanced the Tech level 1 ships a few years back, (cant remember exact dates). They have not been revisited since. That sounds like a lack of iteration to me. You should be more specific about what iteration you refer to then since that was impossible to glean from your post. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.03.24 17:39:00 - [16] Right, anyway, doesn't change the fact that Tuxford didn't dump the tier system and it still needs to be axed. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.10 17:45:00 - [17] Back from the honeymoon. Now for the Nyx Bump. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.11 15:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Heavenly Blues Not supported. Where is the CCP that is capable of producing balanced content? Everything they have touched the last 3 years has turned into **. Fix all the damn bugs. CCP is incapable of producing quality content. Just leave it alone before they ** it up even more. Thanks for the bump. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.17 19:12:00 - [19] Nothing ventured, nothing gained. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Kiev Duran I for one would like to see more of the ships underused due to something as arbitrary as tier, such as the Ferox. I like the Ferox, but yeah, it could definately use a bit of a stat boost to really shine next to other BCs. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide

Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.19 16:18:00 - [21] Indeed, thanks for that tidbit. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.22 17:58:00 - [22] Well, the Hyperion would be a much more viable boat if it hadn't been intended to replace the Megathron instead of just giving the Gallente a decent sniper BS. But in tiericide, one of those two would need a change, hell even before tiericide. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.06 04:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Black Dranzer Sure. Also, ponies would be sweet. My Alliance for a Pony. Quote: I do support this, but I think there's a rather idealized idea of how easy balancing it all would actually be. By that I mean, removing the tier system would be hard. If you try doing balance on that many ships at once, you're bound to screw something up. Not at all. Develop a standardized ruleset for stats and then make each deviation a subset of rules. For example. The Battlecruiser class has 9900 hp total. The standard would be 3300/3300/3300 hull/armor/shield. Racial flavor would put Minmatar at -20% Hull and +10% Armor/Shield. Caldari -10% Hull/Armor and +20% Shield. Amarr at -10% Hull/Shield and +20% Armor. Gallente -20% Shield and +10% Hull/Armor. The Cyclone is a Shield oriented ship so would get a further +10% to shield and -10% to armor. The Hurricane would fit the standard Minmatar Deviation. Each race will have at least one ship at the Racial Deviation of the Standard. Then you simply tweak individual ships around that. Race neutral ships would be the 'purest'. Quote: What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such. CCP could pay me $1000 to do it for them. I have half a mind to do it for free anyway. Quote: I support this topic because it's a good idea. But I'm not sure it'd be even remotely easy. It's only hard if you try to do it without a solid foundation. Quote: Also, one last thing that bugged me: Tiers provide progression within ship classes. Removing the tier system would kill that progression. It's not a huge pro of the tier system, but it is a pro. Actually, they force progression. But since progression in EvE is entirely based on sp, knowledge, associations, and ISK... there is no need for a mundane planned obsolescence of entire lines of ships. Quote: Anyway, supported. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.06 17:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Gynoceros Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense. Battleships suffer from Tiering too. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.21 19:54:00 - [25] Pot hole! ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.26 03:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Swynet Originally by: Val'Dore Originally by: Gynoceros Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense. Battleships suffer from Tiering too. Gallente: the battleship tiers is non sense. The price tag/bill of materials has nothing reasonable imho. Any race really, none of the Tech 1 ships have any significant differences in technology, so the comparative cost and ability imbalances make little sense. Quote: Honestly, what's the purpose of Tiers system if the only [stuff] different is the build cost? -shouldn't the tiers system define specific roles related to lvl skills? In theory, yes. But in actuality, all tiers do is arbitrarily gimp stats and entire lines of ships. Originally by: Alara IonStorm Save the T1 Cruiser Line Up. Things like the T1 Logi's EWAR Ships like the Bellicose and Celestis. The Omen and Stabber The Thorax, Moa, Maller. Poor fitting, Slot Layout, Bonuses have plauged these ships. T2 Battlecruisers are a similar price and can handle almost any role better. Like the T1 Logi's there role isn't even managed well do to poor fitting/cap/bonuses. It almost seems like Tech 1 ships were prenerfed for tiering reasons so that Tech 2 ships can be that much more powerful in direct comparison. Quote: Ships like the Punisher, Maller and Prophecy have a Laser bonus so bad most people cram Capless Autocannons on. At least they gave the Abaddon a Dmg Bonus along with the Armor Resist. The Moa and Ferox that both have less range and Dmg then a good Drake. To be fair, lasers are the most damaging weapons with no ships bonus applied. Quote: Some serious role redefine and balance changes would be nice. Precisely the goal of Tiericide. Quote: No more useless ships. See above. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.26 16:44:00 - [27] Originally by: Alara IonStorm That wasn't really a question to be answered, more of a statement... Of Support. I know that. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.29 23:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Ai Mei you can eliminate the tier system but what is it going to do? if you stream line the costs and make them all equal there will be no variation. I never said there should be no variation. Only that any variation should be based on roles not tiers. Quote: Do we really need to make this game so bland like the character creator? You mean how everyone looks like a Drake, Abaddon, Nyx, or Aeon with slightly different hair? Quote: Hey remember when bloodlines meaned something? Yeah, I remember that. Then I remember Achura... and the insanity sauce that followed that. Quote: Now every character starts out practically the same with no advantage over another in areas, no weaknesses in areas, just a cookie cutter. Oh I dunno, my character looks better than yours. Quote: Removing the tier system would do that just to ships, they would be bland boring and there would be no advantage to flying one ship over another. I have no idea why you would think such a ridiculous thing. Unless you own a bunch of bpos. Quote: now lets break down the 1-6 on the list. You can try Quote: 1. This is to prevent those little kids who buy buy plex from buying lots of big ships before they are really able to fly them. Seriously do you want someone in a sniper abbadon with only amarr bs 1 on your fleet op? - NO. This is there to ensure people are ready to fly the ship properly. They would only need Amarr BS 1 to fit the requisite rack of 1400s. Anyone is welcome to my fleet ops, I don't discriminate. Quote: 2. So what change nothing? The heavier ships already weigh more. Also dont fix what isnt broken with material costs. So you DO own bpos! Quote: 3. No, we dont need cookie cutter ships, we already have cookie cutter characters we dont need them in ships. There is no reason the dominix should have the same cap as a thron or a hyperion. I never indicated they should. You came up with that on your own. Quote: 4. they are already like that. Thank you Captain Obvious. Quote: 5. elaborate - tweaks should be done on some ships. Hyperion and Megathron. Even without Tiericide they are prime examples of tweaking being necessary. Quote: 6. NO, tech 1 is exactly that. TECH 1. they are not supposed to have super powers like their tech 2 variants. If you start giving tech 1 ships those special role powers like the tech 2 variants then you are going to erase the line that defines the need to shoot for tech 2 ships. The relationship between Tech I and II should be about technology advancements, not roles. Lots of Tech I ships have role bonuses. Quote: Eve is already getting too easy as it is, not make it any easier and bland.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.03 07:34:00 - [29] Right, this topic is not going away. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.13 21:26:00 - [30] I hate how the good ideas tend to drown... throwing out the life ring. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide

Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.26 04:57:00 - [31] Maybe it is a waste of time, but I'm bumping this anyway. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.28 16:16:00 - [32] Thanks for the support. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.