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Valeroth Kyarmentari
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:12:00 -
[1]
I have a quick question for all you EFT Warrriors out there.
When I'm playing around with fits in EFT, I can never make an active armor tank that according to EFT can sustain damage higher than any active shield tank I can make.
Any thoughts? Do I need to look at it differently? Does EFT not represent armor tanks well? Possibly I'm doing something wrong?
Could someone show me a good armor tank that withstand more dps than a decent active shield tank?
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Malcanis
Caldari
Alcohlics Anonymous
Scum Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:19:00 -
[2]
Power diags and damage controls being low slot items give shield tanking a big boost. But if you want to fit tackle, EW, sensor boosting and other such utility mods, then that makes it much more difficult to fit an impressive shield tank.
how do your sheild tanks look after you've fitted a MWD, point, web, cap booster and an ECCM?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Valeroth Kyarmentari
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:35:00 -
[3]
Hmm, I can see your point. I'm still fairly new (about 4 months) and so far have done mostly only PvE. So when I switch to PvP it looks like I'll need to consider the armor tank quite a bit more.
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Buzzmong
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:40:00 -
[4]
Active shield tanks are designed to handle more DPS than active armour tanks. EFT isn't fooling you much.
HOWEVER, and pay attention because this is important:
Shield tanks do it at a very high cap cost and while they can sustain a high DPS, armour tanks will sustain a (slightly) lower amount of DPS for a much longer period.
Also of note is that shield tanks can be made to use less slots than the equivalent armour tank, but again, at the expense of longevity. Hence why shield booster+cap booster are the favoured option for gank fit mission ships, while armour tanks are favoured for stabilty and afk-ness. PVP is a different matter.
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Go Web! Go! |
Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:44:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Valeroth Kyarmentari
I have a quick question for all you EFT Warrriors out there.
When I'm playing around with fits in EFT, I can never make an active armor tank that according to EFT can sustain damage higher than any active shield tank I can make.
Any thoughts?
Working as intended.
Quote:
Do I need to look at it differently? Does EFT not represent armor tanks well? Possibly I'm doing something wrong?
Yeah, you have to look at it a bit differently. Armor tanking and shield tanking were never intended to be simple mirror-images of each other. Shield tanking was designed to give a better burst/active tank, armor tanking was built for buffer. Which is why shield tankers get X-L shield boosters (no X-L armor repper) and a crystal set and armor tankers get 1600mm plates (twice the HP of an LSE or 800mm plate) and slave set.
Quote:
Could someone show me a good armor tank that withstand more dps than a decent active shield tank?
I can't personally.
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Wacktopia on 08/03/2011 14:45:54
FYI - Probably one of the most common sub-cap active armor tanks in the game. Just for reference.
Also take a look at boosters if you're active tanking. Assuming you're talking PvP ofc? If you're referring to PvE then it really doesn't matter because you can tank L4s with your eyes shut in, say, an active Dominix.
[Myrmidon, Tripple Rep Autos]
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
Vespa EC-600 x5
Warrior II x5
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.03.08 16:13:00 -
[7]
It's difficult to generalize "which is better", instead you need to think "which is better for my situation?"
Shields have the ability to absorb alot of DPS, but they also have a big hole in their resistances, EM/Therm. So if you're flying a shield tanked Raven, and catch agro from someone flying a Armageddon, be prepared to say goodby to your raven.
On the other hand, armor might not be able to tank as much dps, but their resistances/buffer are usualy a little better.
Choosing your encounters in Eve is just as important as knowing how to fit your ship. I'm learning (threw trial and error....and alot of fire) that it's best to know your strenghts and weeknesses of the particular ship you're flying.
I've learned (again, with fire as my teacher) as an Amarr pilot, not to go looking for a fight in Mimnitar space. Why? becuase most Mimi ships have a good em/threm resistance, while dealing explosive (amarr's weekness) damage. The same geddon that I used to melt a raven got it's hull smashed in by a Typhoon.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.08 20:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Whitehound on 08/03/2011 20:42:49
The afterburner is an important item to reduce incoming damage from missiles and goes into a mid-slot. Therefore do armor tanks not need to sustain as much DPS when the damage is coming from missiles. The tracking disruptor is another item for the mid-slot and can greatly reduce incoming damage from turret based ships. Sensor dampeners and ECM jammers can also effect the amount of incoming damage.
Any armor tanker should invest into some e-war skills. This is more true for Gallente than Amarr, because some Gallente ships posses a good amount of mid-slots to fit e-war. Hence why their top command ship gets a bonus to information warfare.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
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Posted - 2011.03.08 21:29:00 -
[9]
Also don't forget that shield and armor have different holes in their resitances. Basically meaning, anything that shoots EMP is giving your shields a hard time and thus armor has it's own personal dilemmas.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.09 03:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
Also don't forget that shield and armor have different holes in their resitances. Basically meaning, anything that shoots EMP is giving your shields a hard time and thus armor has it's own personal dilemmas.
My Loki and my Legion beg to differ.
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
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Posted - 2011.03.09 06:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
Also don't forget that shield and armor have different holes in their resitances. Basically meaning, anything that shoots EMP is giving your shields a hard time and thus armor has it's own personal dilemmas.
My Loki and my Legion beg to differ.
So you are saying shields and armor have same resistance and are equally affected by the same ammo? So basically switching ammo has no affects and is useless damagetype-wise. 
Originally by: CCP Shadow
Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.09 06:57:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Target Painter on 09/03/2011 06:57:59
Quote:
So you are saying shields and armor have same resistance and are equally affected by the same ammo?
No.
Quote:
So basically switching ammo has no affects and is useless damagetype-wise.
No.
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
Also don't forget that shield and armor have different holes in their resitances.
I'm not disagreeing with this part.
Quote:
Basically meaning, anything that shoots EMP is giving your shields a hard time and thus armor has it's own personal dilemmas.
This part is dumb. If you are shooting EMP at a Vaga or a Sleipnir (or anything Minmatar T2), you are most assuredly doing it wrong. T2/T3 Amarr for much the same reason; the stereotypical armor hole is covered by their T2 resists.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.09 08:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
So you are saying shields and armor have same resistance and are equally affected by the same ammo? So basically switching ammo has no affects and is useless damagetype-wise.
If you guys had read the OP's comment and actually understood what he was doing, then you would know that the resistances are obsolete for the topic.
Originally by: Valeroth Kyarmentari
When I'm playing around with fits in EFT, I can never make an active armor tank that according to EFT can sustain damage higher than any active shield tank I can make.
The OP used EFT and EFT takes the resistances of shield and armor into account when it calculates the eHP and sustained HP/s values. Arguing about the differences in resistance between armor and shield therefore becomes obsolete.
Perhaps you want to question the OP's statement itself and try to create armor and shield tanks that use the same amount of cap and see by how much shield tanks are stronger than armor tanks, or if the statement is true at all.
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Sonya Kranz
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Posted - 2011.03.09 13:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sonya Kranz on 09/03/2011 13:02:27
if you take a standard armor tank with lets say 1 armor repairer and 3 - 4 hardeners you will have around the same sustained tank then an active shield tank.
The shield tank will be harder to keep running though, possibly requiring a cap booster as said before. It does however have a much larger burst tank.
An option to boost your armor tank up to what you ask is to use a double repper setup. Ishtar and Dominix are often used for this for example, and it will tank alot, but also require a large amount of cap regen, usually taking up most of the ships slots.
Also most ships arent really designed to do both, or work much better with one or the other so in general the question is often irrelevant
an example of a high dps armor tank:
[Ishtar, Dual rep]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Large Capacitor Battery II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II
Civilian Light Electron Blaster, Civilian Blaster Charge
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Tanks about 1735 dps, almost stable, and even has an afterburner
However like i said, theres really no place for anything else on the ship, this is a drone boat though 
Edit: this is against guristas, other factions give a bit less tank.
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Valeroth Kyarmentari
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Posted - 2011.03.09 13:37:00 -
[15]
I appreciate all the different viewpoints, though it is correct that I care little about the resistance holes. If there are any holes, I generally compensate for my resistance holes. They are just different holes for shields than armor, but either is easily plugged. In these tests I'm always using a mid slot for an afterburner.
Purely EFT Warrioring I can usually make an Active Shield Tank, that both last longer, absorbs more dps, and puts out more damage (gyros, tracking enhancers in low slots) than any armor tank I can build. In fact I can build passive shield tanks with that look better than armor. I'm trying out this excerise on ships that do not get any bonus to armor or shields to make it fair.
Sorry but I'll have to reject the argument that an armor tank can last longer, I've yet to see that.
The best arguments I have seen for armor tank that I have seen are the need of the mid-slots for EWAR, tackling, and the ability to build a much larger buffer tank with armor. I agree with all of those.
And of course ships with an armor rep bonus, like the Myrmidon do armor tank much better (that is a nice myrm setup by the way). The setups are appreciated as they give me an idea of what to try if I were to do it. With these ideas I can squeak out an armor tank that absorbs more dps than a shield tank... but I seem to take about a 25% hit in dps in the process.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.03.09 13:52:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Swynet on 09/03/2011 13:53:59
Originally by: Valeroth Kyarmentari
Purely EFT Warrioring I can usually make an Active Shield Tank, that both last longer, absorbs more dps, and puts out more damage (gyros, tracking enhancers in low slots) than any armor tank I can build.
It's true for every gallente cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship. Seems dev's can't see what's wrong with that so, go straight forward 
Try the Myrmidon shield tanked and Auto-canons or Artys, one of the best Minmatar ships with Gallente bonus (drones) adn no need to crosstrain
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Originally by: Goose99
In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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